Domingo Santana to the Mariners, Gamel and Zavolas to MKE

[OnTheBlack]

This trade was a bust!

 

 

Zavalos 9 IP 2H 0ER 11K's today.

 

So lets ignore all defense and the other player in the trade.

[OnTheBlack]

I'm not mad that we traded a DH for a serviceable 4th OF who can get on base and play solid defense. If Santana was a superstar, that would be one thing, but he's a decent hitter who plays extremely bad defense. There was no place for him in MILW

I have no recollection of him playing the outfield like Eric Thames ... Santana is on pace for an all-star season ... Gamel will never be on pace for that, I predict.

 

 

I was just curious as to his WAR and saw this article about his defense on fangraphs...

 

It’s at the individual level where things look remarkably bleak, and for the umpteenth time, the small-sample caveats should be noted; these numbers may not represent true talent levels. Still, it would be irresponsible not to gawk at this particular trainwreck, and when we do, we find that the left side of the diamond is a disaster. With Kyle Seager out due to a torn tendon in his left hand, Ryon Healy has been subpar at third base (-3.6 UZR, -4 DRS), but Tim Beckham has been even worse at shortstop (-5.2 UZR, -6 DRS). Even worse than those two is Domingo Santana, whose numbers suggest he’s playing left field with a blindfold (-8.7 UZR, -7 DRS); even given his -11.5 UZR/150 for his career, this is much, much worse.

[adambr2]

Santana is a horrific defender, there is just no disputing that. It's unfathomable to think we first tried him in CF after trading for him.

[MrTPlush]

I think the Mariners won this trade on paper...but reality is this is a win-win trade. We couldn’t keep Santana and had to trade him. So the fact we got a solid 4th OFer is a pretty good get in all reality. I mean sure the Mariners got an actual starter and we got a 4th OFer, but we didn’t need another starting OFer. Gamel serves a purpose, Santana just did not.

 

These things will happen when you have a good roster and are competing.

[wntrtxn21]

I think the Mariners won this trade on paper...but reality is this is a win-win trade. We couldn’t keep Santana and had to trade him. So the fact we got a solid 4th OFer is a pretty good get in all reality. I mean sure the Mariners got an actual starter and we got a 4th OFer, but we didn’t need another starting OFer. Gamel serves a purpose, Santana just did not.

 

These things will happen when you have a good roster and are competing.

 

Santana WAS a 4th OF for the Brewers. So they traded a 4th OF and got back a 4th OF and a pitcher. Plus now the 4th OF is a decent defender who can play all 3 OF positions.

[jerichoholicninja]

Santana has a grand total of ZERO appearances as a DH this year. I'm not sure exactly what that means but I feel it is totally relevant to this discussion.

[Fear The Chorizo]

If the Brewers would have wanted to roll with Santana as an everyday player on this roster, he'd have Braun's roster spot. I'm sure they could have rolled with that move had they been willing to eat roughly $40M in salary to trade Braun away for nothing meaningful in return...but I'm guessing Stearns opted to try acquiring a more versatile OF defender plus a pretty decent looking pitching prospect in return for Santana, who spent most of last season in AAA.

 

Santana had a really good 2017, but even then he struck out a ton and played terrible defense. His offensive production isn't missed at all with this team, and if he was still with the Brewers the roster composition would look even wonkier than it currently does without him.

[MrTPlush]

I think the Mariners won this trade on paper...but reality is this is a win-win trade. We couldn’t keep Santana and had to trade him. So the fact we got a solid 4th OFer is a pretty good get in all reality. I mean sure the Mariners got an actual starter and we got a 4th OFer, but we didn’t need another starting OFer. Gamel serves a purpose, Santana just did not.

 

These things will happen when you have a good roster and are competing.

 

Santana WAS a 4th OF for the Brewers. So they traded a 4th OF and got back a 4th OF and a pitcher. Plus now the 4th OF is a decent defender who can play all 3 OF positions.

 

Santana was and never will be a 4th OFer. He just had nowhere to play here and had an impossible road back to playing time here after early struggles. We 100% gave up the better and more valuable player...but we got something we needed for something we couldn’t use.

 

I think people are really trying to find any way to devalue Santana, but the guy is still solid. I don’t think we have some huge loss on our hands (or any loss really), but let’s not pretend Santana isn’t a good player.

 

I don’t regret them trading him because we flat out had to and he had nowhere to play here. They weren’t eating Braun’s contract and dumping him. Santana>Braun...but let’s be honest and just accept that wasn’t ever going to happen. Even then it isn't like Santana is some 4 WAR player. He is just solid.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I think the Mariners won this trade on paper...but reality is this is a win-win trade. We couldn’t keep Santana and had to trade him. So the fact we got a solid 4th OFer is a pretty good get in all reality. I mean sure the Mariners got an actual starter and we got a 4th OFer, but we didn’t need another starting OFer. Gamel serves a purpose, Santana just did not.

 

These things will happen when you have a good roster and are competing.

 

Santana WAS a 4th OF for the Brewers. So they traded a 4th OF and got back a 4th OF and a pitcher. Plus now the 4th OF is a decent defender who can play all 3 OF positions.

 

Santana was and never will be a 4th OFer. He just had nowhere to play here and had an impossible road back to playing time here after early struggles. We 100% gave up the better and more valuable player...but we got something we needed for something we couldn’t use.

 

I think people are really trying to find any way to devalue Santana, but the guy is still solid. I don’t think we have some huge loss on our hands (or any loss really), but let’s not pretend Santana isn’t a good player.

 

I don’t regret them trading him because we flat out had to and he had nowhere to play here. They weren’t eating Braun’s contract and dumping him. Santana>Braun...but let’s be honest and just accept that wasn’t ever going to happen. Even then it isn't like Santana is some 4 WAR player. He is just solid.

 

I've always thought that to be a good player, you need to be a solid defender, as well as good with the bat. Santana is an atrocious right fielder. He is a good hitter, but not a good overall player, because his defense makes him a flat out liability. It's too bad, too, because he's easily athletic enough, and has a cannon for an arm.

 

I'm happy with the trade because it brought back decent value in Gamel, who doesn't profile as a superstar, but as a solid role player and energy guy who seems to be a great fit on this team. And don't sleep on Zavolas, who is turning out to be a nice little pitching prospect.

[MrTPlush]

Why does his defense make him a liability instantly? Being poor in the OF is a lot different than sucking in the infield. While I don’t think anyone can sleep on the importance of good OF defense it doesn’t have a huge overall impact in the grand scheme.

 

As a 130 OPS+ player he can be poor on defense. Everyone thinks Moustakas is just mashing it with the bat and Santana isn’t too far off that offensively.

 

I guess I always find it interesting defense can carry you, but offense can’t.

[StearnsFTW]

Santana has a grand total of ZERO appearances as a DH this year. I'm not sure exactly what that means but I feel it is totally relevant to this discussion.

 

That means the Mariners had, until last week, Vogelbach, and Encarnacion at 1b. Plus Jay Bruce for a good part of the year. My god what an abomination of a roster defensively.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Why does his defense make him a liability instantly? Being poor in the OF is a lot different than sucking in the infield. While I don’t think anyone can sleep on the importance of good OF defense it doesn’t have a huge overall impact in the grand scheme.

 

As a 130 OPS+ player he can be poor on defense. Everyone thinks Moustakas is just mashing it with the bat and Santana isn’t too far off that offensively.

 

I guess I always find it interesting defense can carry you, but offense can’t.

 

Santana's defense certainly doesn't erase his value as an offensive performer, but it certainly helps temper it. He'd hold more value strictly as a DH ... which is likely his future role, as his defense isn't going to improve at this point.

[Fear The Chorizo]

As a 130 OPS+ player he can be poor on defense. Everyone thinks Moustakas is just mashing it with the bat and Santana isn’t too far off that offensively.

 

Moose is OPS-ing mid 900's, while Santana is roughly 100 OPS points behind him primarily due to slugging, so yes, Moose is mashing compared to Santana. Plus, Moose plays two infield defensive positions well along with being capable of playing 1B if necessary. Moose has accumulated 3 WAR thus far in 2019, while Domingo is at just 1.0 WAR despite his offensive production. Why? Santana has no defensive positional flexibility - if he plays everyday you have to stick him in a corner OF spot and hope he doesn't get the ball hit to him if you are an NL team. It's really difficult to be that bad defensively in the OF to severely impact your value as a player when you put up really good offensive numbers - but Domingo has found a way!

 

Until Santana is a fulltime DH, he's a marginally good player stuck in a corner OF position.

[PeaveyFury]

Why does his defense make him a liability instantly? Being poor in the OF is a lot different than sucking in the infield. While I don’t think anyone can sleep on the importance of good OF defense it doesn’t have a huge overall impact in the grand scheme.

 

As a 130 OPS+ player he can be poor on defense.

 

But he's truly been sooo poor on defense that it has eroded HALF of his offensive value. I agree that it's not typically significant enough to be a huge issue, but guys like him and Khrush are so bad it truly does matter, and a LOT. It's extraordinarily telling that despite Domingo's counting stats, Gamel has had half the value as Domingo despite half the playing time.

[Lathund]

Yeah Santana is the rare breed who's so bad on defense that despite a 130 wRC+ he's at best (Depending on which defensive metric you rely on) on pace to be a league average regular. Which still makes him a pretty good and useful player, but nothing really special. And yeah, it's a bit early to take defensive metrics as gospel. But in this case, unusually enough DRS, UZR and FRAA are all in agreement that he's been one of, if not the, worst players on defense this year. And he has several years worth of awful defensive metrics, the 400 innings last year were the exception and that's too short a stretch to really read anything into. Errors aren't a good stat, but with 9 errors Santana would be T-10th for most errors by an outfield. Not an outfielder, a whole team's outfield. Brewers OF have 5 errors combined. And then there's the eye test which in this case confirms all of the above.

 

But yes, even with all that Santana might very well be the better player overall. But there's this to consider: Gamel has a minor league option, he hits left handed, he has an extra year of team control, he's cheaper and he can play center field and can thus be a proper 4th OF. And then there's Zavolas; who knows if he has the stuff to ever make it, but so far as a pro he's done as well as you could've asked, including a CGSO yesterday, allowing only 2 base runners. Brewers basically had to trade him (Or eat $30m+ of Braun's salary for nothing. Or have a seriously unbalanced and inflexible roster), and everyone knew it. And they still got a solid return, with a player who suited the roster better.

[OnTheBlack]

Ok, if you watched the Brewers game tonight, then you can't say that you watched Santana and never noticed his defense being that bad! That was a comically bad play. I really don't know what he did. It was a LD to right-center and he ran in on it and not over far enough and ended up nowhere near the ball!

[trwi7]

Ok, if you watched the Brewers game tonight, then you can't say that you watched Santana and never noticed his defense being that bad! That was a comically bad play. I really don't know what he did. It was a LD to right-center and he ran in on it and not over far enough and ended up nowhere near the ball!

 

As much as you guys complain about treego going over the top in his love for Santana, there are a ton of guys going over the top trying to point out every flaw. He didn't go back, he went sideways and then back almost immediately and didn't get near the ball because it left the bat on a line at 107 mph with an expected batting average of .680.

 

http://viz.mlb.com/play?game_pk=567591&play_id=b0e5ede0-db26-44b6-9fdc-e6b44675f53e&w=400&h=400&rotation=undefined

[Jopal78]

There’s nothing wrong with Santana, he’s a solid young player.

 

This GM likes versatile outfielders who can play all three spots, runs well and tends to make contact. Santana doesn’t fit that mold so they traded him off for Gamel who may not have the power Santana has but plays all three spots, runs well and makes contact. Plus they got a pitcher who is a long ways away but has a legit shot of seeing a 25 man roster. Fair trade for both teams

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

There’s nothing wrong with Santana, he’s a solid young player.

 

This GM likes versatile outfielders who can play all three spots, runs well and tends to make contact. Santana doesn’t fit that mold so they traded him off for Gamel who may not have the power Santana has but plays all three spots, runs well and makes contact. Plus they got a pitcher who is a long ways away but has a legit shot of seeing a 25 man roster. Fair trade for both teams

 

This is about as fair and impartial of an opinion on this deal as I've seen. Santana simply no longer fit the mold that Stearns was seemingly looking for with his offensive and defensive plans. I agree ... Santana is a very nice bat, but the fact that they sent him to the minors and kept him they for a pretty huge chunk of the season last year meant that the writing was pretty much on the wall regarding how they viewed his future with the organization. Compare that to the Shaw situation this year. Santana even at his worst last year was still hitting pretty substantially better than Shaw has most of the season, yet Shaw is getting weeks upon weeks to try to work out of it. That's a pretty strong indicator of how both players are/were viewed by the organization.

 

Gamel is never going to be a star, but he's the type who is totally capable of putting up Brady Clark-type numbers during Clark's best years, and that makes for a very valuable player, especially as a 4th OF. If Zavolas turns out to be a serviceable mid-rotation guy, which I think he stands a very good chance of, this trade is a win.

[topper09er]

Gamel who may not have the power Santana has but plays all three spots, runs well and makes contact.

 

Gamel is striking out 29% this year and has been a career negative value defender. He is a good baserunner but only has 1 SB this year.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

He still runs really well, which plays into his defense as well. Santana wasn't a good defender, but contrary to what you'd assume about a guy of his size, he was also pretty fast.

[owbc]

I had to look it up after Domingo's awful play on Braun's hit...he is literally the worst outfielder in MLB this year, -11 outs above average. His speed is below average for corner outfielders. As PeavyFury noted, he has canceled out over half (actually 2/3 of his bWAR) due to poor defense.

 

Unfortunately Domingo was quite valuable to the Brewers as a DH as well as a PH in Sept/Oct. I doubt we will have someone like that later this year.

[OnTheBlack]

Ok, if you watched the Brewers game tonight, then you can't say that you watched Santana and never noticed his defense being that bad! That was a comically bad play. I really don't know what he did. It was a LD to right-center and he ran in on it and not over far enough and ended up nowhere near the ball!

 

As much as you guys complain about treego going over the top in his love for Santana, there are a ton of guys going over the top trying to point out every flaw. He didn't go back, he went sideways and then back almost immediately and didn't get near the ball because it left the bat on a line at 107 mph with an expected batting average of .680.

 

http://viz.mlb.com/play?game_pk=567591&play_id=b0e5ede0-db26-44b6-9fdc-e6b44675f53e&w=400&h=400&rotation=undefined

 

 

His attempt and route was laughably bad. I don't really care what the exit velocity was or that he didn't make the play, it was how slow to react and how far from making the play he was. And I'm not pointing out "every flaw," I'm pointing out how bad his defense is.

 

And this comment;

 

Even worse than those two is Domingo Santana, whose numbers suggest he’s playing left field with a blindfold (-8.7 UZR, -7 DRS); even given his -11.5 UZR/150 for his career, this is much, much worse.

 

...Isn't me going over the top, it's from fangraphs.

 

He's a good hitter. He'd be a much better player if he could just DH. I could see him being a productive player for years and I suspect he will be. I'll guess he ends up playing for multiple teams and moves around quite a bit because his bat will play, but I'd also guess that in the future, he'll primarily be a DH only.

[OnTheBlack]

Gamel who may not have the power Santana has but plays all three spots, runs well and makes contact.

 

Gamel is striking out 29% this year and has been a career negative value defender. He is a good baserunner but only has 1 SB this year.

 

 

Stolen bases aren't really all that important to me when it comes to how good of a base runner someone is.

 

Gamel=Play all 3 OF spots without embarrassing himself in CF, walks a bit more and is more accustomed to playin gthe 4th OF'er role and a left handed bat off the bench.

 

Santana=Terrible defender, good bat, not a good fit with the Brewers.

 

Santana's not a bad player(he is a awful defensive OF'er) but he wasn't a fit with the Brewers. So they traded him for someone who WAS a better fit and they got a starting pitcher as well.

 

There's also the fact that Gamel had a option.

 

I also really don't care about how many stolen bases someone has as long as they get on base and don't make stupid mistakes. We sent the guy down to the minors last year after he struggled badly, we had Braun, Yelich and Cain in the OF.

 

I don't really get what people expected us to get in return for Santana? He's hitting well. I'm happy for him. He wouldn't have the same line in Milwaukee as he wouldn't have gottten the AB's.

[pacopete4]

Zavolas named Carolina League Pitcher of the Year: Noah Zavolas is top two in the league ERA, IP, WHIP, BB/9, K/BB, FIP and xFIP.

 

Meanwhile both Gamel and Santana have slowed offensively.

 

Santana has hit the IL and carries a .256/.332/.449/.781 slash line. Santana is listed as a .4 bWAR and a .3 fWAR this season.

 

Gamel has seen very little playing time lately as Braun is smoking hot as well as having the emergence of Grisham. Gamel for the season has a .243/.330/.376/.706 slash line and has a .4 bWAR and a .7 fWAR this season.

 

When you throw in the production Braun has given us as a starter this season as well as carrying a 1.4 bWAR and 1.5 fWAR I think it’s been a good trade for Stearns so far.