Lee Smith and Harold Baines to the Hall of Fame

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I wonder if this committee is going to open things up to the steroid guys - i.e. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa?

[clancyphile]

I wonder if this committee is going to open things up to the steroid guys - i.e. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa?

 

Actually, given when Baines played... I think it's more about some equality for those who didn't juice. Baines doesn't have the eye-popping numbers of Sosa and McGwire, but he also never juiced.

[JimH5]

I applaud the Lee Smith selection. He retired as the career leader in saves. Pitched in over 1000 games. Finished more than 800. That's enough for me to think he was one of the best in the role that he was assigned. He threw in multi inning appearances through the 1980s and only became a one inning guy when everybody else did.

 

With some of the other closers that are in, he should be in... but many of the other closers shouldn't be in. It's a joke. There are probably hundreds of forgettable starters who could have been great closers. In fact, most closers are just that... failed starters. But you can close games and throw 95 m.p.h. heat or cut fastballs all the time without your arm falling off and voila, you're suddenly great. It's so stupid. Being an unhittable closer doesn't actually result in a lot more wins than just being an effective one. And Smith was far from unhittable. It's just laziness to look at what happened in the 9th inning and say that's what determined the game. It may have a disproportionate share of the suspense and tension you experience while watching, but it does not have any disproportionate influence on the outcome compared to other innings.

 

There aren't hundreds of forgettable starters who could have done what Smith did. We know that because there was nobody who did what he did. Saves might be an unimportant stat by today's lens, but it has been counted and celebrated by MLB since Jerome Holtzman, and when Smith retired, he was number 1 on the list. He did what he was assigned, and was the most prolific guy in history at it. The HOF has more than 200 players enshrined. I think there's room for the top guy, even though 2018's sensibilities tell us that saves aren't the be all and end all. For a point in history, they were considered pretty important.

[3and2Fastball]

I wonder if this committee is going to open things up to the steroid guys - i.e. Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Sosa?

 

Actually, given when Baines played... I think it's more about some equality for those who didn't juice. Baines doesn't have the eye-popping numbers of Sosa and McGwire, but he also never juiced.

 

There is no way to really know that. I think most of MLB was juicing in the 90's & early 2000's. Baines had one of his best offensive seasons at the age of 40, in 1999, hitting .312 ... I'm just supposed to believe that he was one of the genetic marvels who aged like Ted Williams or Stan Musial & wasn't juicing? Playing for the Orioles with teammates Brady Anderson & Albert Belle?

[StearnsFTW]

I can't decide which one is worse. Both horrible.

 

Nothing will ever top Bill Mazeroski though. That one is truly hilarious.

[MadScientist]

I can't decide which one is worse. Both horrible.

 

Nothing will ever top Bill Mazeroski though. That one is truly hilarious.

That is ridiculous. Amazing what living the moment every kid who's ever played baseball imagined will do for your reputation. Although, to be fair, he was apparently a great fielder and played in a pitchers park.

 

Tinkers, Evers, and to a lesser extent Chance getting in on the basis of a poem was pretty bad too.

[Baldkin]

Edgar Martinez. Larry Walker. Jim Edmonds. Kenny Lofton. Andruw Jones.

 

I just. How the hell does Baines get in?

[rondoman]

HOF bar has been irrevocably lowered. Baines a compiler. Never led league in anything. I can name 20 guys more deserving than Baines (Hernandez, Mattingly), yet none of them should be in either. It’s the freakin’ Hall of Fame!

[rondoman]

In 22 years, Baines never hit 30 HRs and broke 100 RBI 3 times. Career OBP of .356. He has no business being in the same COUNTY as Cooperstown.

 

Harold Baines career WAR: 38.7 Some notable people not in HOF: - Edgar Martinez: 68.4 - Larry Walker: 72.7 - Gary Sheffield: 60.7 - Fred McGriff: 52.6 - Jeff Kent: 55.4 - Miguel Tejada: 47.3.

[Tbadder]

The Baines election is another embarrassment. Smith deserves his place. But more importantly this committee, which should abandoned, is evidence for an inner sanctum of only the very best, limited to say 30 players or less. With this we can ignore the shameful and concentrate on the most high. When I was young Cooperstown was on my bucket list; it has long since disappeared from my must-dos.

[JimH5]

The Baines election is another embarrassment. Smith deserves his place. But more importantly this committee, which should abandoned, is evidence for an inner sanctum of only the very best, limited to say 30 players or less. With this we can ignore the shameful and concentrate on the most high. When I was young Cooperstown was on my bucket list; it has long since disappeared from my must-dos.

 

FYI--Cooperstown remains an awesome place to visit. Harold Baines and Bill Mazeroski and Rick Ferrell and Tommy McCarthy don't make it any less so. It's not like they are crowding out Ruth and Mays and Grove. Baines will have a plaque and maybe a jersey on display. Hold your nose and walk past them, and soak in the rest. It's awesome.

[Outlander]

I'll agree with you there, just because maybe a few less deserving people make it doesn't make the experience there any less special. Been 15 years since I was last year and look forward to a couple of years when I can take my kids.

[coolhandluke121]

 

With some of the other closers that are in, he should be in... but many of the other closers shouldn't be in. It's a joke. There are probably hundreds of forgettable starters who could have been great closers. In fact, most closers are just that... failed starters. But you can close games and throw 95 m.p.h. heat or cut fastballs all the time without your arm falling off and voila, you're suddenly great. It's so stupid. Being an unhittable closer doesn't actually result in a lot more wins than just being an effective one. And Smith was far from unhittable. It's just laziness to look at what happened in the 9th inning and say that's what determined the game. It may have a disproportionate share of the suspense and tension you experience while watching, but it does not have any disproportionate influence on the outcome compared to other innings.

 

There aren't hundreds of forgettable starters who could have done what Smith did. We know that because there was nobody who did what he did. Saves might be an unimportant stat by today's lens, but it has been counted and celebrated by MLB since Jerome Holtzman, and when Smith retired, he was number 1 on the list. He did what he was assigned, and was the most prolific guy in history at it. The HOF has more than 200 players enshrined. I think there's room for the top guy, even though 2018's sensibilities tell us that saves aren't the be all and end all. For a point in history, they were considered pretty important.

 

Couldn't disagree more. There are tons of guys who never got the dumb luck of being just bad enough to not be starter quality, but good enough to excel in a fabricated role with one of the most inflated perceived values in arguably all of sports. At least Gossage, Sutter, and Fingers pitched a ton of innings. I'm guessing in their best years, they added to your probability of winning in a near-starter fashion, much like Hader this season. Not true of guys like Smith and Hoffman at all. Smith was the first closer to have more than 75% of his appearances start in the 9th inning or later. It's a completely fabricated specialization that gives guys every advantage (one inning, a lead that's not hard to protect, often not having to face the best hitters) and then rewards them for it. It is partly the fault of foolish management for under-utilizing the best relievers, but I don't believe Smith would have been so dominant without those advantages. Hoffman might have been, but again I can't reward a guy for being so lucky to have such a privileged role on the basis of the fact that he maybe could have been that great if asked to actually help a team win significantly more games than they would win otherwise. He might have struggled a lot if asked to pitch 100+ innings, and he would need to do that to add even close to the value that should be expected of a HOF pitcher.

 

Mariano is the only modern reliever who deserves to be in. Hader would deserve it if he keeps doing what he's doing. But no other relievers have added to your probability of winning a game in recent memory nearly that much. I kind of doubt guys like Gossage, Sutter, Fingers, and Eckersley did either, but at least they pitched a lot more innings.

[JimH5]

I think the stat you're looking for is Win Probability Added. Hader finished 6th on the NL Leaderboard this year on BB-REF.

 

Smith had 5 top 10 seasons, including a 3rd and two 4ths.

 

I'll grant, though, that Smith's case is mostly built around the save stat that you find less meaningful. I do, too. But for years, MLB teams didn't. And during that era, Smith did something that required many years of quality. He delivered what they were looking for.

 

And I don't buy the speculation that others could have done it. Because no others did.

[NievesNoNO]

As many others have indicated, these are not thrilling inductions. Seems like they're being rewarded for longevity as opposed to being the best. Both had nice careers for certain but I wouldn't consider either of them dominant for any stretch of time in their respective careers.

[coolhandluke121]

I think the stat you're looking for is Win Probability Added. Hader finished 6th on the NL Leaderboard this year on BB-REF.

 

Smith had 5 top 10 seasons, including a 3rd and two 4ths.

 

 

I'm actually kind of shocked at that. I don't remember him being that good, and he worked mostly in a depressed era for offense. Even so, 5 top 10 seasons doesn't even seem like that much. There must be lots of starters not in the HOF who have more than that. I think Hader will be up there every year for nearly 10 years if he stays healthy, for example. But that's valid in the sense that it's better than I thought. I still wouldn't have him in though.

 

ETA: Career WPA is still behind guys like Joe Nathan, K-Rod, Kimbrel, Billy Wagner, Papelbon, Hoffman, and probably a bunch more relievers whose names I don't recognize as relievers. And relievers do have a certain advantage in WPA because they can just unleash fastballs and cutters all the time and don't have a big workload. It's kind of like your average speed being better if you don't have to run very far. Still not a fan of anything but the Rivera's and maybe half a tier below him being in. That would be Eckersley, Gossage, Wilhelm, maybe Hoffman, maybe Kimbrel eventually... Fingers by the way only had about half the WPA of Eckersley, Gossage, or Hoffman.