Packers to hire LaFleur (page 8), Hackett hired as OC (page 13)

[KeithStone53151]

The team's problem this year was the offense anyway. The defense wasn't great but it was decimated by injuries and I think anyone can agree it's trending up. The offense was inexcusable for a team led by Rodgers.

 

Decimated is a very strong word, but man in this case it seriously doesn't seem strong enough. Did we have even 1 player from the likely starting 11 on defense make it through the entire season? Blake Martinez I think made it, but I think he's the only one. And then backups got hurt and backups of the backups. The Packers tend to have more injury issues than most teams, but I don't think I've ever seen so many guys get hurt in any other season...and most of them were defensive players.

 

But I will agree, defense definitely seemed to be trending up. With a better offense that could shave their amount of time on the field by a couple minutes per game, the defense might have been borderline good. We really didn't have much of an excuse for our struggles on offense. Rodgers had a bad year, and our scheme/playcalling simply was bad.

[PeaveyFury]

I brought this up a few months ago, I think you disagreed, so won't go into the stadium expansion and Titetown District again but there was an article on si.com a few weeks ago that I didn't think reflected too well on the organization.

 

Thanks, I do remember that now. Please don't take offense to my lack of recollection previously, that's just my seeming increasingly short memory these days.

 

I think the media struggles to understand what Green Bay is as an organization, and fails to understand the things they need to do to be successful that other organizations in the NFL do not. If there's criticism about the Titletown District, is there also retroactive criticism about the Lambeau Field Atrium levelled at Bob Harlan? Of course not, because it's one of the better financial decisions the team has made. When the district is done, I think the results will be looked at similarly.

 

That said, isn't that what the President of the team should be focusing the bulk of his time on? If anything, doesn't this seem like a 'want it both ways' arguement? Most don't want Murphy involved in stuff like hiring the coach, but then stuff like this says that he should be focusing more of his time on the football aspect of the organization, rather than the financial side.... isn't that incredibly contradictory?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I brought this up a few months ago, I think you disagreed, so won't go into the stadium expansion and Titetown District again but there was an article on si.com a few weeks ago that I didn't think reflected too well on the organization.

 

Thanks, I do remember that now. Don't take offense to my lack of recollection previously, that's just my seeming increasingly short memory these days.

 

I think the media struggles to understand what Green Bay is as an organization, and fails to understand the things they need to do to be successful that other organizations in the NFL do not. If there's criticism about the Titletown District, is there also retroactive criticism about the Lambeau Field Atrium levelled at Bob Harlan? Of course not, because it's one of the better financial decisions the team has made. When the district is done, I think the results will be looked at similarly.

 

That said, isn't that what the President of the team should be focusing the bulk of his time on? If anything, doesn't this seem like a 'want it both ways' arguement? Most don't want Murphy involved in stuff like hiring the coach, but then stuff like this says that he should be focusing more of his time on the football aspect of the organization, rather than the financial side.... isn't that incredibly contradictory?

 

 

Yeah, I don't think you'd hear anything about TD being dumb if they were winning a bunch of games. It's just low-hanging fruit. "You should spend your time on X instead of a skihill!" It's kinda dumb. It's like the reaction when Obama fills out an NCAA bracket and he shouldn't do that because X is still a problem.

 

Titledown District is a must-have in pro sports today. You can't just be a famous stadium. It's simply not enough anymore.

[jerichoholicninja]

Re: Titletown District

Maybe a dumb question, but with the massive amount of revenue sharing in the NFL, why would a team invest it's money in anything? Whether you generate the most revenue in the league or the least, isn't everyone coming out the same after revenue sharing?

[FVBrewerFan]

I brought this up a few months ago, I think you disagreed, so won't go into the stadium expansion and Titetown District again but there was an article on si.com a few weeks ago that I didn't think reflected too well on the organization.

 

Thanks, I do remember that now. Don't take offense to my lack of recollection previously, that's just my seeming increasingly short memory these days.

 

I think the media struggles to understand what Green Bay is as an organization, and fails to understand the things they need to do to be successful that other organizations in the NFL do not. If there's criticism about the Titletown District, is there also retroactive criticism about the Lambeau Field Atrium levelled at Bob Harlan? Of course not, because it's one of the better financial decisions the team has made. When the district is done, I think the results will be looked at similarly.

 

That said, isn't that what the President of the team should be focusing the bulk of his time on? If anything, doesn't this seem like a 'want it both ways' arguement? Most don't want Murphy involved in stuff like hiring the coach, but then stuff like this says that he should be focusing more of his time on the football aspect of the organization, rather than the financial side.... isn't that incredibly contradictory?

 

 

Yeah, I don't think you'd hear anything about TD being dumb if they were winning a bunch of games. It's just low-hanging fruit. "You should spend your time on X instead of a skihill!" It's kinda dumb. It's like the reaction when Obama fills out an NCAA bracket and he shouldn't do that because X is still a problem.

Titledown District is a must-have in pro sports today. You can't just be a famous stadium. It's simply not enough anymore.

 

That's a kinda dumb comparison. Filling out an NCAA bracket takes 5 minutes. Focusing on an entertainment district is a full time job.

[FVBrewerFan]

Re: Titletown District

Maybe a dumb question, but with the massive amount of revenue sharing in the NFL, why would a team invest it's money in anything? Whether you generate the most revenue in the league or the least, isn't everyone coming out the same after revenue sharing?

 

They don't share that revenue, that's the beauty of it.

[pacopete4]

The stuff they’re doing around Lambeau is great. It really is. It just stinks that we didn’t pull the trigger on TT earlier.

[homer]

I feel like the organizational structure of the Packers is considered a detriment when the team is doing poorly and is considered a strength when they are doing well.

[jerichoholicninja]

Re: Titletown District

Maybe a dumb question, but with the massive amount of revenue sharing in the NFL, why would a team invest it's money in anything? Whether you generate the most revenue in the league or the least, isn't everyone coming out the same after revenue sharing?

 

They don't share that revenue, that's the beauty of it.

 

Then what do they do with it? The amount you can spend on players is fixed so it doesn't help with that. Spend it on coaches, front office staff, scouts, and player amenities I suppose but I would guess when all that is totaled up, there isn't all that much of a variance between teams.

[homer]

Re: Titletown District

Maybe a dumb question, but with the massive amount of revenue sharing in the NFL, why would a team invest it's money in anything? Whether you generate the most revenue in the league or the least, isn't everyone coming out the same after revenue sharing?

 

They don't share that revenue, that's the beauty of it.

 

Then what do they do with it? The amount you can spend on players is fixed so it doesn't help with that. Spend it on coaches, front office staff, scouts, and player amenities I suppose but I would guess when all that is totaled up, there isn't all that much of a variance between teams.

 

Naming rights, branding, seat licensing, sponsorships etc. all go to the team. I think the Cowboys revenue was $840 million. Green Bay's was $455 million. Packers tend to put their excess into a reserve fund which is at roughly $380 million as of last summer. Jerry Jones has other ideas for his profits https://robbreport.com/motors/marine/dallas-cowboys-jerry-jones-250-million-superyacht-2837847/

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2018/07/18/dallas-cowboys-ranked-again-as-the-most-valuable.html

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/packers-financials-show-that-nfl-made-billions-despite-national-anthem-controversy/

[HiAndTight]

I brought this up a few months ago, I think you disagreed, so won't go into the stadium expansion and Titetown District again but there was an article on si.com a few weeks ago that I didn't think reflected too well on the organization.

 

Thanks, I do remember that now. Don't take offense to my lack of recollection previously, that's just my seeming increasingly short memory these days.

 

I think the media struggles to understand what Green Bay is as an organization, and fails to understand the things they need to do to be successful that other organizations in the NFL do not. If there's criticism about the Titletown District, is there also retroactive criticism about the Lambeau Field Atrium levelled at Bob Harlan? Of course not, because it's one of the better financial decisions the team has made. When the district is done, I think the results will be looked at similarly.

 

That said, isn't that what the President of the team should be focusing the bulk of his time on? If anything, doesn't this seem like a 'want it both ways' arguement? Most don't want Murphy involved in stuff like hiring the coach, but then stuff like this says that he should be focusing more of his time on the football aspect of the organization, rather than the financial side.... isn't that incredibly contradictory?

 

 

Yeah, I don't think you'd hear anything about TD being dumb if they were winning a bunch of games. It's just low-hanging fruit. "You should spend your time on X instead of a skihill!" It's kinda dumb. It's like the reaction when Obama fills out an NCAA bracket and he shouldn't do that because X is still a problem.

 

Titledown District is a must-have in pro sports today. You can't just be a famous stadium. It's simply not enough anymore.

 

 

You're exactly right...it is the very definition of low hanging fruit. I do think we could have survived without Titletown District with the revenue sharing and the ticket sales, but why on Earth WOULDN'T we want the team to be more prosperous. There were rumors that the biggest problem with Mack in Oakland was that the Davis family didn't have the capital to put 80-100 million dollars in escrow for his signing bonus. That's not a problem the Packers have or will likely have in the near future and being forward thinking financially hardly seems like a bad idea OR mutually exclusive to winning.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Thanks, I do remember that now. Don't take offense to my lack of recollection previously, that's just my seeming increasingly short memory these days.

 

I think the media struggles to understand what Green Bay is as an organization, and fails to understand the things they need to do to be successful that other organizations in the NFL do not. If there's criticism about the Titletown District, is there also retroactive criticism about the Lambeau Field Atrium levelled at Bob Harlan? Of course not, because it's one of the better financial decisions the team has made. When the district is done, I think the results will be looked at similarly.

 

That said, isn't that what the President of the team should be focusing the bulk of his time on? If anything, doesn't this seem like a 'want it both ways' arguement? Most don't want Murphy involved in stuff like hiring the coach, but then stuff like this says that he should be focusing more of his time on the football aspect of the organization, rather than the financial side.... isn't that incredibly contradictory?

 

 

Yeah, I don't think you'd hear anything about TD being dumb if they were winning a bunch of games. It's just low-hanging fruit. "You should spend your time on X instead of a skihill!" It's kinda dumb. It's like the reaction when Obama fills out an NCAA bracket and he shouldn't do that because X is still a problem.

Titledown District is a must-have in pro sports today. You can't just be a famous stadium. It's simply not enough anymore.

 

That's a kinda dumb comparison. Filling out an NCAA bracket takes 5 minutes. Focusing on an entertainment district is a full time job.

 

 

No it isn't. It's the same stupid thought. He can be involved with developing a stadium district and getting a better team on the field. They have nothing to do with each other.

[FVBrewerFan]

The same person is directly responsible for managing both. It's stupid not to understand a simple job description. I'm not saying he was distracted, the leadeership on the team said it. Complacency set in, and Murphy didn't notice. Nor did he notice TT declining abilities.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think you should cool it a little.

 

The idea that developing the land around the stadium distracted him from the on-field product is revisionist and silly. They announced those plans in 2015, which means they were likely in development in 2012-13. This is simply a case of people grasping at low-hanging fruit.

 

We've seen it from every angle this year, from Rodgers body language to the ski hill to the F.O. structure. This is all stuff nobody would bother pointing out if they won more games.

 

The Titletown District is an extremely necessary modernization of the area and franchise. It is a good project whether they won 3 or 13 games.

 

I guess I just expect the occasional stinker as part of the life cycle of being anyone other than the Patriots, but that is a really hard pill for people to swallow with a team has been as good as the Packers.

 

I even think their own diagnosis of "complacency" is dishonest. They weren't complacent, Aaron Rodgers just led them to believe they were doing a better job with the roster than they were. Why would anyone working for the team think TT wasn't doing a good job when they're playing in the NFCCG?

[nodakfan17]

I see the Packers let go of Joe Whitt Jr. I know he has been touted as an up-and-comer in the coaching ranks, but I’ve been underwhelmed by the team’s CB play for years. Good luck to him.

[OldHeidelberg]

I brought this up a few months ago, I think you disagreed, so won't go into the stadium expansion and Titetown District again but there was an article on si.com a few weeks ago that I didn't think reflected too well on the organization.

 

Thanks, I do remember that now. Please don't take offense to my lack of recollection previously, that's just my seeming increasingly short memory these days.

 

I think the media struggles to understand what Green Bay is as an organization, and fails to understand the things they need to do to be successful that other organizations in the NFL do not. If there's criticism about the Titletown District, is there also retroactive criticism about the Lambeau Field Atrium levelled at Bob Harlan? Of course not, because it's one of the better financial decisions the team has made. When the district is done, I think the results will be looked at similarly.

 

That said, isn't that what the President of the team should be focusing the bulk of his time on? If anything, doesn't this seem like a 'want it both ways' arguement? Most don't want Murphy involved in stuff like hiring the coach, but then stuff like this says that he should be focusing more of his time on the football aspect of the organization, rather than the financial side.... isn't that incredibly contradictory?

 

I guess I worry the heavy focus on the business side of things under Murphy is or could impact football decisions. I think the reason I brought this up previously was in the discussion of Rodgers contract extension and what he means to the team and in particular the success of the TD, they need fan interest at a high level. Of course a big part of his job is the business stuff, the stuff they are doing since he took over may be what they tasked him with when hired. But the success of the team on the field has to be his #1 priority since he is the ultimately the guy who has to make the big changes. He may have took his eye off the ball. The cracks were showing in the 2016 NFCC. I don't know anyone who didn't think Capers had to go after another playoff defensive collapse and the flaws in TT's draft and develop philosophy had been getting more exposed every season. Murphy needed to look past the home playoff game and NFCC appearance, all this stuff wasn't taking place at the beginning of a new regime. Tough decisions are made all the time in sports when winning teams repeatedly fall short of a title.

 

Of course the Packers are built to be slow to change and believing in their system has resulted in 20+ years of success. I think it was late but the changes are being made, the culture thing brought up in the SI article is still a concern but who knows how accurate it is. I could be totally wrong about the connection between football success and TD success. It's really hard to say after so much time since the last period of extended losing, a lot has changed since then. I don't really care about the bells and whistles, I just want them to win on Sundays and on into February, more restrooms is probably #1 on my list for Lambeau. So viewing things through that lens makes me more cynical about some of this stuff. Honestly it doesn't really matter if the TD is a financial flop if fans and the community get enjoyment out of it.

[OldHeidelberg]

I see the Packers let go of Joe Whitt Jr. I know he has been touted as an up-and-comer in the coaching ranks, but I’ve been underwhelmed by the team’s CB play for years. Good luck to him.

 

He was a victim of some poor personel decisions going back to the Woodson release but I do feel an overhaul was in order. I was surprised all the D coaches weren't fired with Capers last year.

[PeaveyFury]

I feel like guys like Winston Moss and Joe Whitt Jr are touted as 'up and comers' by McCarthey and the local media, but the results on the field rarely equal the hype. Some of that is personel as OH notes, but it rarely seems like these guys go elsewhere and have tons of success.

[CheezWizHed]

As others have said, I think the main root cause was lack of talent. Great coaches can do nothing with holes on the team. That goes on TT. Whatever happened with him, his career as GM was certainly bipolar. Great early, horrible late.

 

Capers and the rest of the coaches "lost" the team a couple years ago and his firing last year was long overdue. But then it was very evident that MM lost the team (at least by) this year. But his offensive approach was stale for a couple years.

 

Like so many players, I'm guessing he is refreshed by starting new somewhere else. And I'd be surprised if he doesn't get another shot.y

Similarly, I'd assume there will be a resurgence on the Packers simply by there being something new. LeFluer will need to ensure the team cohesion remains, but new coaches get a honeymoon period (generally) where people will follow just because he is new.

 

I don't think the Packer's talent is all THAT lacking. Its just that the difference between winning and losing in the league is small and playing as a unit is critical. A ProBowl team of individuals will still lose. A key few FAs and another good draft will have us back on track as the most important part of a super bowl team is already here... the QB.

[xisxisxis]

There was an interesting article I read recently (can't remember where) that pointed out that the "disciples" of Al Davis and Shanahan had an approach to coaching that emphasized that you needed to know both sides of the ball. So offensive coaches needed to know and understand what was going on on the defensive side and vice versa. No silos. What always struck me about the Capers defenses was that they were practicing every day against a west coast offense and an "innovative" HC yet they didn't seem to get better or use the innovation on offense to learn how to approach those types of offenses better. I truly think that part of the problem with both Capers/MM were that they started to silo and their coaches didn't learn from across the line of scrimmage. I think there's something to this approach as the Rams (for example) seemed to progress on both sides of the ball very fast, not just on one side (which always seemed to be the Packers issue - only 1 side of the ball seemed to be "good"). While it wasn't a part of the LaFleur media discussion, he was definitely trained in that school of thinking and I hope he brings that into the organization as an emphasis. If the offense can make adjustments plus the defense takes a step forward I think the Packers can be playoff competitive again next year and with a good draft and FA signings could become a "force" again quickly.

[OnTheBlack]

There was an interesting article I read recently (can't remember where) that pointed out that the "disciples" of Al Davis and Shanahan had an approach to coaching that emphasized that you needed to know both sides of the ball. So offensive coaches needed to know and understand what was going on on the defensive side and vice versa. No silos. What always struck me about the Capers defenses was that they were practicing every day against a west coast offense and an "innovative" HC yet they didn't seem to get better or use the innovation on offense to learn how to approach those types of offenses better. I truly think that part of the problem with both Capers/MM were that they started to silo and their coaches didn't learn from across the line of scrimmage. I think there's something to this approach as the Rams (for example) seemed to progress on both sides of the ball very fast, not just on one side (which always seemed to be the Packers issue - only 1 side of the ball seemed to be "good"). While it wasn't a part of the LaFleur media discussion, he was definitely trained in that school of thinking and I hope he brings that into the organization as an emphasis. If the offense can make adjustments plus the defense takes a step forward I think the Packers can be playoff competitive again next year and with a good draft and FA signings could become a "force" again quickly.

 

The Rams have fielded a pretty good defense and special teams for a while now. I'm not looking a year by year ranking, but you'll often find defensive performance improve with offensive performance just because it makes the other team more predicable and you're on the field less and you're likely rushing the passer more when you are.

 

This "silo" ideology though isn't really knew. Gibbs on those Redskins teams used to say if you have a question about the defense, go ask the DC(his name escapes me at the moment).

 

I can definitely see both schools of thought, but it's worked awfully well for a lot of teams to have a HC focus on one aspect of the team and a coordinator on the other. Almost exclusively the HC is running the offense and the coordinator in charge of the defense.

 

Ultimately though I just don't agree there was a fundamental problem with McCarthy or Capers beyond talent first and then getting stale. When Capers had the corners to play his style of defense, they were good. They lost Nick Collins, Casey Heyward, Micah Hyde, Sam Shields and others. They couldn't replace them and Capers defense struggled. Hell, they took a fringe All-Pro type pass rusher and moved him to MLB'er because they were so bad there. And it helped, but it still showed how little he had to work with.

 

McCarthy, last year Rodgers got hurt, this year everyone got hurt and Rodgers really played poorly relative to his standards and he lost his job. But the offense had been pretty good prior to that.

 

 

I'm just excited to get some new blood in here on offense and we got that last year on D and now it's his second year and I expect the results to show that....and I just assume Rodgers doesn't miss the multitude of big throws that he hits in his sleep every other year.

[OnTheBlack]

As others have said, I think the main root cause was lack of talent. Great coaches can do nothing with holes on the team. That goes on TT. Whatever happened with him, his career as GM was certainly bipolar. Great early, horrible late.

 

Capers and the rest of the coaches "lost" the team a couple years ago and his firing last year was long overdue. But then it was very evident that MM lost the team (at least by) this year. But his offensive approach was stale for a couple years.

 

Like so many players, I'm guessing he is refreshed by starting new somewhere else. And I'd be surprised if he doesn't get another shot.y

Similarly, I'd assume there will be a resurgence on the Packers simply by there being something new. LeFluer will need to ensure the team cohesion remains, but new coaches get a honeymoon period (generally) where people will follow just because he is new.

 

I don't think the Packer's talent is all THAT lacking. Its just that the difference between winning and losing in the league is small and playing as a unit is critical. A ProBowl team of individuals will still lose. A key few FAs and another good draft will have us back on track as the most important part of a super bowl team is already here... the QB.

 

 

You nailed it perfectly. You look at the first draft, Aaron Rodgers-1st, 2nd-Terrance Murphy, 2A-Nick Collins. I'm going off memory here, Collins and Murphy may be flipped, but whatever.

 

That's a franchise QB, a guy who was busting out and turning into a All-Pro Safety, and a freakish talent at WR'er who looked like he was going to be a major factor as a rookie until he suffered a career ending neck injury, but he was what, 6'2, 210 and ran a 4.38 40 and was relatively polished?

 

 

And then while he had some misses in the first early on, he had big hits in most of those drafts later on. But then you draft Randall 1st overall to play CB and your DB coach says he's a natural safety? What's going on there? You draft ANOTHER guy that very year who like Randall hadn't even played football primarily during his college career? That's a 1st and a 2nd on a HUGE position of need that ended up being terrible.

 

Then come back, use 2 more picks in the 1st and 2nd on secondary players, King and Jones and one has not stayed healthy at all, and Jones just doesn't seem mentally capable of being a full time player despite a ton of talent. Your 4th rounder(1st pick of the 4th) who didn't make it to year two, your 3rd looks like he's not a starter...

 

Yeah, it was ugly late. The 2016 draft does look pretty solid with Clark, 3rd Fackrell, 4th Blake Martinez, 5th Dean Lowry. That being the exception. Of course even there we traded up for a Lane Johnson-esque athletic ability and one of the best OL coaches in the NFL and he's been a bust.

 

 

I agree with the rest of your post as well. They do still have some talent that needs to be developed and that talent needs to take it upon themselves to do better. Take a damn yoga class if you need to, I'm just sick of watching 15 guys missing with groin injuries every other week. But talent is there.

 

Turnarounds come quick and guys who look solid this time of the year in 12 months can look like big time studs in a years time.

[patrickgpe]

Todd Monken is the OC I’m cleveland. I would have liked him here. I hope Hackett is not the choice. My preference now (not sure he is a candidate though) is Difillipo.

[Point Beer Is Best]

And now the Browns have hired away James Campen, who had one year left on his deal so they could have blocked him if they so chose. Pretty bummed out by that. He’s developed several starters out of Day 3 picks.

[Point Beer Is Best]

Todd Monken is the OC I’m cleveland. I would have liked him here. I hope Hackett is not the choice. My preference now (not sure he is a candidate though) is Difillipo.

 

Crap. Well I thought if he was gonna go somewhere where he would not be the play-caller he would chose Green Bay. Guess not.