2B/3B Options

[KeithStone53151]

 

I am going to guess Earth where he has 192 career appearances at second base versus Aguilar having 7 career appearances at third.

 

And Braun is a 3rd baseman...right? My point is Dietrich is not a 2b and shouldn't be considered one. He's an awful defender really everywhere, but especially 2b. He also hasn't seen significant action at 2b in a couple years.

 

 

He has had appearances at 2nd base every year he has been in the majors (starting in 2013) including a high of 75 all the way back in 2016. He mainly played third base in 2017 which is still infield at least. Ironically, according to baseball reference, he graded out much worse as an outfielder than he did as an infielder. In fact, in 2016, he was 0.1, which he played the most 2nd base. He would definitely be a bat first player for the Brewers. Check out his away splits and you can see why people are interested in him.

 

Ryan Braun last played 3rd base in 2007 so a pretty poor example there but good job being condescending.

 

I feel like every time I see this guy play, he makes an error on a play that's just slightly more difficult than routine. He comes off to me as very error prone. I know this sentence relates to OF which we wouldn't be looking at, but I've twice seen him let balls get past him in the outfield that should not have gotten past him. It felt like I was watching Kyle Schwarber out there. Cabrera has range issues, but is much more sure-handed and makes plays on balls he can get to. Looking at their error stat, Dietrich would have 3 times the errors as Cabrera if they had played the same number of innings at 2b. He's also generally a better hitter than Dietrich in my opinion.

 

Also I personally prefer a RH hitter at the 2b position. We seem to have more guys that hit RHP better than LHP. That's actually why I'm so interested in Flores. He's actually been a pretty solid defender at 2b, and while struggling against LHP in 2018...he mashed against them in 17 and 16. While being bad there, both Cabrera and Flores could be a 3rd string SS...while with Dietrich that simply isn't an option.

[Humans Need Water]

Darren Dietrich's defensive numbers at 2B are not that bad. Are they good? No. But they are terrible. In 2016, the year he played his most games at 2B (75), he actually had a positive defensive rating according to Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference. He had -3 Defensive Runs Saved. You could live with that kind of defense.

 

You don't want the guy in the OF. He's terrible there.

 

Between OF, 3B and 2B, Dietrich's best position appears to be 2B. However, that's not saying a lot. He's never going to be good - but with some quality positioning, perhaps he'd be palatable if he could hit for an .800+ OPS. However, he's probably a a left handed bat in a platoon, which is not ideal.

 

I haven't seen the Dietrich much - and he's barely played 2B the last two years - so I'm just going by what I read. If the club thinks they could work with him, he might be an interesting option. As noted by others, he really hits better outside of Marlins park. .816 OPS outside of Miami vs a .696 OPS in Miami.

UZR is a terrible metric. DRS has him at -3 in 2016 over 585 innings (65 full games basically) so extrapolate that to 140 games and he's actually a -7. And that was by far and away his best defensive metric season at 2b. He also has a 980 fielding % at 2b. Compare that to Cabrera at 993 %. There's no way Dietrich's range is *that* much better than Cabrera to offset the difference. Cabrera is the better fielder/thrower. So I'm banking on Cabrera's poor metrics being due to his lack of range, which can be mitigated at 2b with how much the Brewers shift (that's how Shaw ended up there - because he can field and throw he just doesn't have the range and Cabrera would likely have better range than Shaw given he also played SS). And him filling in at SS occasionally won't have a negative impact either as Dubon will be up relatively soon too.

 

Dietrich is the best bat out there if you're only looking for a lefty to face RHP. I personally prefer Cabrera as he's a switch hitter with very similar splits against both sides. So while he won't hit RHP like Dietrich can he'll be more consistent and matchups won't need to be played. Both these guys posted very similar OPS+ numbers the past several years too.

 

And I agree with VFBrewerFan regarding Dubon. He would have been #2 or 3 on this site's Top 25 and I think he would have been #3 or 4 on mlb.com with Turang being the other. In 2017 Dubon graded as 55 hit, 40 power, 60 run, 55 arm, 55 field with a 50 overall. The exact same numbers they slapped on Turang right now. But because Dubon hit 272 in a pitchers park (AA) being 2yrs young for level then 272 in the best hitters park (AAA) 4.5yrs young for level they dropped his hit hit tool to 50, power to 35 (even though he was on same pace as year before but in a worse hitting park) and field to 50 but say he can play both sides of the bag well so it makes no sense lol so now his overall is 45 (utility). They were calling him up the first week of May last year because he was ready at that time *and*, I'm assuming here, it would have been after the super 2 cutoff. So their comment about starting him in AAA to get his feet wet again after the injury makes sense and he'll be up as soon as he's playing his normal game.

[reillymcshane]

Darren Dietrich's defensive numbers at 2B are not that bad. Are they good? No. But they are terrible. In 2016, the year he played his most games at 2B (75), he actually had a positive defensive rating according to Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference. He had -3 Defensive Runs Saved. You could live with that kind of defense.

 

You don't want the guy in the OF. He's terrible there.

 

Between OF, 3B and 2B, Dietrich's best position appears to be 2B. However, that's not saying a lot. He's never going to be good - but with some quality positioning, perhaps he'd be palatable if he could hit for an .800+ OPS. However, he's probably a a left handed bat in a platoon, which is not ideal.

 

I haven't seen the Dietrich much - and he's barely played 2B the last two years - so I'm just going by what I read. If the club thinks they could work with him, he might be an interesting option. As noted by others, he really hits better outside of Marlins park. .816 OPS outside of Miami vs a .696 OPS in Miami.

UZR is a terrible metric. DRS has him at -3 in 2016 over 585 innings (65 full games basically) so extrapolate that to 140 games and he's actually a -7. And that was by far and away his best defensive metric season at 2b. He also has a 980 fielding % at 2b. Compare that to Cabrera at 993 %. There's no way Dietrich's range is *that* much better than Cabrera to offset the difference. Cabrera is the better fielder/thrower. So I'm banking on Cabrera's poor metrics being due to his lack of range, which can be mitigated at 2b with how much the Brewers shift (that's how Shaw ended up there - because he can field and throw he just doesn't have the range and Cabrera would likely have better range than Shaw given he also played SS). And him filling in at SS occasionally won't have a negative impact either as Dubon will be up relatively soon too.

 

Dietrich is the best bat out there if you're only looking for a lefty to face RHP. I personally prefer Cabrera as he's a switch hitter with very similar splits against both sides. So while he won't hit RHP like Dietrich can he'll be more consistent and matchups won't need to be played. Both these guys posted very similar OPS+ numbers the past several years too.

My point was that the narrative that Dietrich was some horrible, horrible fielder might not hold merit. I am not personally advocating we add the guy - just pointing out it might not be that bad of a move if other things don't work out.

 

As a note, Cabrera had a -17 DRS last year in 92 games at 2B. He was almost as bad at SS (-5 DRS in 31 games). But DRS or any metric is just one part of the equation. That's for the team to figure out. They see the film, run all the numbers, work out the guys. Cabrera's ability to play SS and 3B is nice - even if he isn't that great at any position. And his switch hitting is a really nice plus. You also have to be more comfortable with his bat - which has been pretty steady these last few years.

[Humans Need Water]

Darren Dietrich's defensive numbers at 2B are not that bad. Are they good? No. But they are terrible. In 2016, the year he played his most games at 2B (75), he actually had a positive defensive rating according to Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference. He had -3 Defensive Runs Saved. You could live with that kind of defense.

 

You don't want the guy in the OF. He's terrible there.

 

Between OF, 3B and 2B, Dietrich's best position appears to be 2B. However, that's not saying a lot. He's never going to be good - but with some quality positioning, perhaps he'd be palatable if he could hit for an .800+ OPS. However, he's probably a a left handed bat in a platoon, which is not ideal.

 

I haven't seen the Dietrich much - and he's barely played 2B the last two years - so I'm just going by what I read. If the club thinks they could work with him, he might be an interesting option. As noted by others, he really hits better outside of Marlins park. .816 OPS outside of Miami vs a .696 OPS in Miami.

UZR is a terrible metric. DRS has him at -3 in 2016 over 585 innings (65 full games basically) so extrapolate that to 140 games and he's actually a -7. And that was by far and away his best defensive metric season at 2b. He also has a 980 fielding % at 2b. Compare that to Cabrera at 993 %. There's no way Dietrich's range is *that* much better than Cabrera to offset the difference. Cabrera is the better fielder/thrower. So I'm banking on Cabrera's poor metrics being due to his lack of range, which can be mitigated at 2b with how much the Brewers shift (that's how Shaw ended up there - because he can field and throw he just doesn't have the range and Cabrera would likely have better range than Shaw given he also played SS). And him filling in at SS occasionally won't have a negative impact either as Dubon will be up relatively soon too.

 

Dietrich is the best bat out there if you're only looking for a lefty to face RHP. I personally prefer Cabrera as he's a switch hitter with very similar splits against both sides. So while he won't hit RHP like Dietrich can he'll be more consistent and matchups won't need to be played. Both these guys posted very similar OPS+ numbers the past several years too.

My point was that the narrative that Dietrich was some horrible, horrible fielder might not hold merit. I am not personally advocating we add the guy - just pointing out it might not be that bad of a move if other things don't work out.

 

As a note, Cabrera had a -17 DRS last year in 92 games at 2B. He was almost as bad at SS (-5 DRS in 31 games). But DRS or any metric is just one part of the equation. That's for the team to figure out. They see the film, run all the numbers, work out the guys. Cabrera's ability to play SS and 3B is nice - even if he isn't that great at any position. And his switch hitting is a really nice plus. You also have to be more comfortable with his bat - which has been pretty steady these last few years.

I hear ya. And yeah, we all know the metrics say Cabrera is worthless defensively. But it has to be range related. Range has nothing to do with the ability to actually field the ball and throw it and Cabrera does that. Dietrich isn't good at 2b but he's also not terrible. He's serviceable in a platoon with the way we shift. If we didn't shift much I wouldn't want either of them. The biggest reason I personally would prefer someone other than Dietrich is because he's a lefty who would be best suited in a platoon. That might make sense if there aren't other options who are righty or switch hitters but there are. I'm also fine sticking with a platoon of Spangenberg/Perez until Hiura is up. And once Dubon is up and comfortable I'd trade Perez because he's the worst bench hitter we have and there are others who can do what he does defensively (the majority of his time last year came at SS/2b and RF - we'll be covered there).

[Roderick]

 

Your skepticism of Dubon is match by my skepticism of Hiura, at least for 2019. I fear that the people expecting him to come up in May and be the answer to our 2B prayers are going to be disappointed. Could he be that someday? Sure ... but rare is the prospect that comes up and is an immediate impact player.

 

 

I do not think that Hiura will come up and be an impact player. However, I do think he can come up and be an average player this year. An average player at minimum wage. Save the money for trading deadline where they are paying veterans like Moose, Soria, Schoop, Gio etc a chunk of money.

 

So Hernan Spangenberg for two months, unless the price comes down for whichever free agent Stearns has targeted.

[Eye Black]

I am not advocating for this addition, but in Ken Rosenthal’s article for The Athletic today he mentioned, “the Phils likely have a trade lined up for third baseman Maikel Franco,” which was sort of interesting.

[BlazingGunz]

Franco most likely to the Padres...they are looking for a 3B and have had interest in him in the past.

[KeithStone53151]

Flores moving towards a deal. Report says likely an NL West team, which would obviously mean not us.

 

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Flores moving towards a deal. Report says likely an NL West team, which would obviously mean not us.

 

 

DBacks, per Passan. Sounds like a done deal

 

 

I'm totally ok with this. I think he's shot health-wise.

[Mr Southpaw]

Neal Walker 2.75/1 year bounce back. Maybe less?

[brewmann04]

I don't think the brewers are going to look at anymore second baseman and are good with the potential platoon of Perez and Cory

[pacopete4]

Neil Walker on the cheap really makes too much sense. If he stinks you have those other two guys to fall back on and you’re not out big money. If he hits, you have some nice depth built at that position.

[clancyphile]

Neil Walker on the cheap really makes too much sense. If he stinks you have those other two guys to fall back on and you’re not out big money. If he hits, you have some nice depth built at that position.

 

I liked Walker in 2017, I wish the Crew had been able to retain him in that offseason.

 

I'd be cool with Walker again, both as a stopgap for Hiura and as depth. Say $2.5 million for 2019, a team option for 2020 at $3 million, and a mutual option for 2021 for $3 million.

 

If not, then the current 40-man roster has a number of options across the infield (I also noted where Walker adds depth):

1b: Aguilar/Thames/Braun/Gamel/Perez (Walker)

2b: Shaw/Perez/Spangenberg/Dubon/Saladino (Walker)

ss: Arcia/Dubon/Perez/Saladino

3b: Shaw/Aguilar/Perez/Saladino/Spangenberg/Braun (Walker)

 

So, either way, I think the Crew is in good shape.

[FVBrewerFan]

I dont see how another LH infielder helps anything. If they add anyone, it would be to get Shaw out of the lineup vs LHP. So Perez can play 2B or 3B, but hey still need one more RH bat.

[BlazingGunz]

I don't see how Neil Walker is getting more than a 1 year deal for very cheap $1.5 - $2 million tops. He had a horrible year and is coming off of a 1 year $5 million dollar contract. That being said, would rather just roll with Spangy and Perez and wait for Hiura or Dubon.

[brewerfan82]

I dont see how another LH infielder helps anything. If they add anyone, it would be to get Shaw out of the lineup vs LHP. So Perez can play 2B or 3B, but hey still need one more RH bat.

Well technically, Walker is a RH bat against lefties... He's been a bit iffy from year to year vs. LHP, but adding Walker does add the option to play him at 2B and Perez at 3rd against lefties. It's more of a depth/flexibility move, but I do think it's a worthwhile improvement to the roster if he can be had for the right price. I think ideally everyone would love an impact bat that can both solidify 2B to start the year and also crush lefties in place of Shaw at 3B, but I don't know if that's realistically an option within the team's budget at this point. Add in that our two best middle infield prospects coming up are RH bats, I think you could do a lot worse than adding a flexible, switch hitting, veteran player like Walker to round out the roster.

 

[pre]Rnk Player (Age, Positions) vsRHP vsLHP Total vsRHP vsLHP Total 3YR Def

--------------------------- ----------------- ----------------- -------

Travis Shaw* (28, 3B/1B/2B) .850 / .668 / .807 120 / 74 / 110 7.5

Neil Walker^ (33, 1B/RF/2B/3B) .780 / .724 / .767 111 / 98 / 107 4.8

Cory Spangenberg* (28, 3B/2B/LF) .757 / .512 / .696 105 / 37 / 88 -5.5

Hernan Perez (27, 3B/OF/2B/SS) .666 / .786 / .706 73 / 103 / 83 1.1[/pre]

[clancyphile]

I dont see how another LH infielder helps anything. If they add anyone, it would be to get Shaw out of the lineup vs LHP. So Perez can play 2B or 3B, but hey still need one more RH bat.

Well technically, Walker is a RH bat against lefties... He's been a bit iffy from year to year vs. LHP, but adding Walker does add the option to play him at 2B and Perez at 3rd against lefties. It's more of a depth/flexibility move, but I do think it's a worthwhile improvement to the roster if he can be had for the right price. I think ideally everyone would love an impact bat that can both solidify 2B to start the year and also crush lefties in place of Shaw at 3B, but I don't know if that's realistically an option within the team's budget at this point. Add in that our two best middle infield prospects coming up are RH bats, I think you could do a lot worse than adding a flexible, switch hitting, veteran player like Walker to round out the roster.

 

[pre]Rnk Player (Age, Positions) vsRHP vsLHP Total vsRHP vsLHP Total 3YR Def

--------------------------- ----------------- ----------------- -------

Travis Shaw* (28, 3B/1B/2B) .850 / .668 / .807 120 / 74 / 110 7.5

Neil Walker^ (33, 1B/RF/2B/3B) .780 / .724 / .767 111 / 98 / 107 4.8

Cory Spangenberg* (28, 3B/2B/LF) .757 / .512 / .696 105 / 37 / 88 -5.5

Hernan Perez (27, 3B/OF/2B/SS) .666 / .786 / .706 73 / 103 / 83 1.1[/pre]

 

He's also played at third base and first base over his career, and last season saw time in left field and right field. He's also a switch-hitter.

 

While his average dropped. he still had good OBP skills (42 BB vs. 367 ABs) and had plenty of pop. For the right price - I think he'd be a big help to the Brewers. Go for two years, $5.5 million - add an option year. What does the Crew have to lose?

 

Walker makes a ton of sense at this point.

[pacopete4]

Add Moustakas and Walker. Get professional hitters up and down that lineup every single night and be a thorn in everyone’s sides.

[Oxy]

Add Moustakas and Walker. Get professional hitters up and down that lineup every single night and be a thorn in everyone’s sides.

 

I totally agree with the philosophy, and I think Stearns does too after jettisoning Broxton and Santana (although Thames is still around). Give me 9 athletic guys who can run and play defense and make contact and lay off pitches out of the zone and that's a fun, winning ballclub.

[adambr2]

Does a guy with a .307 career OBP really fit the definition of a professional hitter?

 

I'm not totally opposed to bringing Moose back if it's cheap, but I'm not sure he really fits that philosophy.

[Fear The Chorizo]

If those 2 (Walker and Moose) are seriously considered being added, who do they replace on the current expected 25 man gameday roster in terms of position players?

 

This isn't September callup time where the Brewers can carry a bloated roster of pinch hitters and pitching options - I can see them making 1 addition that hits right handed and can play both 2b and 3b to go into 2019 - they don't have room to add 2. To me, even with his warts, the target is probably Harrison considering he can probably be signed to a shorter term deal at a team-friendly price. And if they can't find a clear upgrade to what they currently have at those positions on the 40 man, then I'd prefer they focus on acquiring a quality SP first and see how things shake out at 2B with in-house options and Hiura.

[KeithStone53151]

Spending small dollars on a 2b that could bounce back and have a super strong season would make a ton of sense, regardless of who it is. Walker specifically had an awful year, prior to 2018 he was an upper 700s to low 800s OPS guys consistently across his career. He could potentially be much better than Spangenberg/Perez, and at some point the cost becomes low enough to be worth taking a chance. If I'm Stearns, I'd try to bring in a 2b with minimal guarantees and significant incentives. Maybe $1.5M guarantee with up to $4M additional in incentives. A majority could be PA/games played with maybe a $300k incentive for all-star and other award incentives.

 

The question on him, Harrison, etc is...do these guys have 1 more good year left in them.

[KeithStone53151]

If those 2 (Walker and Moose) are seriously considered being added, who do they replace on the current expected 25 man gameday roster in terms of position players?

 

This isn't September callup time where the Brewers can carry a bloated roster of pinch hitters and pitching options - I can see them making 1 addition that hits right handed and can play both 2b and 3b to go into 2019 - they don't have room to add 2. To me, even with his warts, the target is probably Harrison considering he can probably be signed to a shorter term deal at a team-friendly price. And if they can't find a clear upgrade to what they currently have at those positions on the 40 man, then I'd prefer they focus on acquiring a quality SP first and see how things shake out at 2B with in-house options and Hiura.

 

I highly doubt both would be added. If one gets added, I think Spangenberg opens in AAA. You'd have Perez, Pina, Gamel, Thames as your reserve options at the moment. Yelich, Cain, Braun, Aguilar, Shaw, Arcia, Walker, Grandal all starting most days. You could also do Spangenberg over Gamel as both have an option. Also many are anticipating Thames being traded for a more multi-position player.

[pacopete4]

C- Grandall & Pina

1B- Aguilar (w/Walker, Shaw (Braun)

2B- Shaw/Walker/Perez

3B- Moustakas/Shaw/Perez/Walker

SS- Arica/Perez (Walker emergency)

LF- Braun/Gamel/Perez

CF- Cain/Yelich/Perez

RF- Yelich/Gamel/Perez

 

And yes, Moustakas is a professional at-bat if you limit him against lefties.

[yoshii8]

I think Neil Walker is a good bet to bounce back, and wouldn't be surprised to see him added on a 1 year deal for fairly cheap. I'd be way more excited about him than Harrison.