2B/3B Options

[billymac]

I'd like to see the Brewers trade for Cesar Hernandez. Switch hitter, plays 2B/3B/SS, free agent in 2021, down year in 2018.

 

Put up a wRC+ as a lefty vs righty of 112 in 2017(3.1 bWAR) and 106 in 2016(3.2 bWAR)

 

Phillies have Scott Kingery waiting in the wings and Cesar will start to get expensive the next 2 years. With his versatility, ability to get on base, switch hitting abilities, seems like a guy Stearns would want to target. Can man 2B until Keston comes up and can rotate on the infield where needed.

[Humans Need Water]

I'm a big fan of Dubon but you're still penciling in a prospect to have a good first MLB season to rely on him.

 

In my ideal world the roster near the end of these season would have Hiura as the everyday 2B, Dubon as the backup SS/utility guy, and an offense-first bench infielder like Cabrera.

The Brewers 2b spot last year hit 227/290/668 (and that's including Shaw playing 2b who had a 309 OBP and 805 OPS there in 140 PA). Villar was our best 2b last year (not counting Shaw) hitting 261/315/693. Dubon just needs to match that to be an upgrade from the position overall last year. SS was even worse in OBP/OPS and Dubon plays there as well. It's absolutely realistic to think Dubon will outproduce our 2018 2b. It also helps that he won't have a high K rate like the others as he's typically around 14-15% - so high contact and high BA spray hitter.

 

He also hits both righties and lefties well and that's critical as you don't have to play matchups like you do with Perez and Spangenberg. So once Dubon is up, which could be by May if he has another April like last year, and if Stearns acquires a 2b who hits both sides similarly/well (Harrison, Cabrera, Marwin) we're in a much better position at the back-end of games.

[tigerbrew]

The remaining 2B free agents in the list don't interest me, I'd prefer to go with our existing players and call up Hiura after he has played 5-6 weeks in AAA to be the Brewers 2B. It's similar to what the Brewers did with another top hitting prospect named Braun, Braun played 34 games in AAA before being called and subsequently won the NL rookie of the year.

[MVP2110]

I would be all for adding Cabrera to this team. I'm with Harrison too. I don't see Gonzalez as realistic.

[long ball]

This is sorta rehashing stuff already mentioned in this thread and I've already stated a case for standing pat with the current group of infielders in the organization. But, I do find myself coming back to Marwin Gonzalez now that Lowrie and LaMahieu have signed. Those contracts provide a solid benchmark for what we can expect Gonzalez to get. We haven't seen any infielder get more than a 2 year deal and I don't expect Gonzalez to be the exception.

 

Due to the positional versatility he provides he doesn't block a promotion of Hiura (or Dubon I suppose) and could provide somewhat of a softish platoon with Shaw if Shaw struggles vs LHP again in 2019. Braun is probably only good for about 400-450 PAs for the next two years so there is a lot of playing time available in the corner OF as well.

 

Gonzalez also gives the Brewers the option of non-tendering or trading Perez next year making him a smaller net addition to the payroll for 2020. I don't necessarily know if the Brewers have it in the budget to add an infielder at this price, but he does seem to solve many of the concerns I have about the Brewers roster over the next two seasons. It's be eerily quiet on rumor front for him.

[KeithStone53151]

I'm going to nitpick those numbers above. In what universe is Moustakas a negative value defender? Also, in what universe is Diedrich a 2b?...that's like calling Aguilar a 3b.

 

I like Cabrera for cheap, I also like Flores for cheap...if possible. I don't hate the idea of Walker/Harrison if other options don't work out or their market collapses to the point of minor league deals.

[wallus]

Also, in what universe is Diedrich a 2b?...that's like calling Aguilar a 3b.

 

 

I am going to guess Earth where he has 192 career appearances at second base versus Aguilar having 7 career appearances at third.

[KeithStone53151]

Also, in what universe is Diedrich a 2b?...that's like calling Aguilar a 3b.

 

 

I am going to guess Earth where he has 192 career appearances at second base versus Aguilar having 7 career appearances at third.

 

And Braun is a 3rd baseman...right? My point is Dietrich is not a 2b and shouldn't be considered one. He's an awful defender really everywhere, but especially 2b. He also hasn't seen significant action at 2b in a couple years.

 

Also Earth isn't a universe last I checked...........

[wallus]

 

I am going to guess Earth where he has 192 career appearances at second base versus Aguilar having 7 career appearances at third.

 

And Braun is a 3rd baseman...right? My point is Dietrich is not a 2b and shouldn't be considered one. He's an awful defender really everywhere, but especially 2b. He also hasn't seen significant action at 2b in a couple years.

 

 

He has had appearances at 2nd base every year he has been in the majors (starting in 2013) including a high of 75 all the way back in 2016. He mainly played third base in 2017 which is still infield at least. Ironically, according to baseball reference, he graded out much worse as an outfielder than he did as an infielder. In fact, in 2016, he was 0.1, which he played the most 2nd base. He would definitely be a bat first player for the Brewers. Check out his away splits and you can see why people are interested in him.

 

Ryan Braun last played 3rd base in 2007 so a pretty poor example there but good job being condescending.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Also, in what universe is Diedrich a 2b?...that's like calling Aguilar a 3b.

 

 

I am going to guess Earth where he has 192 career appearances at second base versus Aguilar having 7 career appearances at third.

 

And Braun is a 3rd baseman...right? My point is Dietrich is not a 2b and shouldn't be considered one. He's an awful defender really everywhere, but especially 2b. He also hasn't seen significant action at 2b in a couple years.

 

Cabrera is a horrid defender at 2B, while Flores can be described as simply bad. It seems odd to me to rule out Dietrich because of his defense, while advocating for two guys that are also poor in that area.

 

I am under the assumption that when Passan tweeted that the Brewers were in deep negotiations on a player that could upgrade 2B/3B, he was talking about Lowrie. I think the Mets upped their offer at the last minute, and that's the one he took. We've seen a run on 2B signings within the last week, which leaves the Brewers with much fewer options now. Gonzalez is still there if they want an all-around solid player. Harrison and Forsythe if they want solid fielders who may not provide a ton of offensive value. Dietrich, Cabrera, Neil Walker or Flores if they want a decent bat who would provide nothing more than a warm body on defense, or an old fart like Brandon Phillips looking to play out the string. Signing Phillips would remind me of the unheralded 1991 signing of Willie Randolph.

 

Of course, there is always the "Sign Moose and play Shaw at 2B" option. I kinda think that's what they'll go with at this point. That lineup will mash righties, but lefties will make it look silly.

[wallus]

I should have posted it but Dietrich had a .859 OPS away from Marlins Park in 2018. I don't think it is a fluke as he has a career .816 OPS away from Marlins Park.

 

He should sign cheaply and would be a phenomenal 7 hole hitter. You can always plug in a defensive replacement later in the game for defense.

 

As Joey mentioned earlier, Cabrera has worse defensive ratings according to Baseball Reference.

[umpref]

Id like to sign Moose. Hopefully 1/3 to 1/2 way through season Dubon or Keston is ready. You then have a much better trade chip in Moose or Shaw for a possible deadline deal than any of the other 2B options out there

[TURBO]

All these mentions of Dubon has me shaking my head in wonder...

 

I don't get the love for this guy.

[MNBrew]

Re: all the wishful thinking about Hiura & Dubon & the SuperTwo deadline.... I'd love to see Hiura and/or Dubon be ready for the majors in late May, but I won't count on either of those guys for a single minute -- for this season at all, let alone by late May -- for a minute until a promotion actually is earned & happens.

 

When we're aiming hard & realistically for a good playoff run & the World Series, I don't think you construct your roster assuming a June 1 call-up gains a stranglehold on a starting position for the rest of the season. If it happens, then you've got a fantastic situation and other assets who can be moved.

 

While Stearns might be comfortable enough w/ the 2B options on hand, I don't think he's out there working the FA 2B market so much if he didn't want to upgrade the position.

 

At this point I think the most appealing options have all signed elsewhere. I'd be all over Marwin Gonzalez over Hernan Perez, but I don't think Gonzalez is looking to sign for an eventual backup/super utility role, let alone the fact that he's a Boras client and that likely puts his asking price in the upper reaches. Josh Harrison or the very unglamorous Neil Walker (who I think could be a smart signing) are guys who I think might make realistic targets. I'm not as crazy about Asdrubal Cabrera but I think he's in the ballpark, too.

[markedman5]

3 years 56 million for Gonzalez?

 

 

Maybe not

 

[brewerfan82]

3 years 56 million for Gonzalez?

 

Yeah... for the 7/8 spot in the lineup, with Spang/Perez here and Hiura/Dubon on their way, I'll let them battle it out this year. If I can get a Walker for <$5mil to solidify things a bit I'll take it, but I think anything more at this point's a little unrealistic after the Grandal signing.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

All these mentions of Dubon has me shaking my head in wonder...

 

I don't get the love for this guy.

 

Your skepticism of Dubon is match by my skepticism of Hiura, at least for 2019. I fear that the people expecting him to come up in May and be the answer to our 2B prayers are going to be disappointed. Could he be that someday? Sure ... but rare is the prospect that comes up and is an immediate impact player.

 

Regarding Dubon ... he's a nice player, but probably ultimately has the ceiling of a utility infielder. Think Hernan Perez with much less power and more plate discipline. Useful player, but not a guy that should be starting on a World Series contending team.

[Humans Need Water]

All these mentions of Dubon has me shaking my head in wonder...

 

I don't get the love for this guy.

 

Your skepticism of Dubon is match by my skepticism of Hiura, at least for 2019. I fear that the people expecting him to come up in May and be the answer to our 2B prayers are going to be disappointed. Could he be that someday? Sure ... but rare is the prospect that comes up and is an immediate impact player.

 

Regarding Dubon ... he's a nice player, but probably ultimately has the ceiling of a utility infielder. Think Hernan Perez with much less power and more plate discipline. Useful player, but not a guy that should be starting on a World Series contending team.

You also question Hiura not being ready due to his AA batting average.

A - 333/374/850

A+ - 320/382/911

First full month in AA - 326/380/891 *then hurt wrist* but still finished with 116 wrc+

AZFL after one month off to heal wrist - 323/371/934

There's clearly a pattern here...now combine that with scouts raving about his bat (to the point Mayo says it trails only Vlad Jr in the minors) and Stearns saying his bat was MLB ready in March 2018. People are kidding themselves if they think he won't be up within the first 2-3 months. He doesn't need to be Braun as a rookie. If he merely hits 275/340/800 he's already a significant upgrade to 2018 and an upgrade to every player we're discussing on this thread because he's an every day player hitting both sides equally well.

 

Dubon is a career 300/349/760 hitter being 1.5 - 3.5yrs young every step of the way with 30+ SB and zero concerns about his defense/arm at either SS or 2b. He's around a 6% walk rate with 14% K rate the past 4yrs. High contact, high BA, great bat to ball skills spray hitter, great approach. His power has increased every year as he's added muscle to his frame so he'll probably max out around 10-12HR or so as he continues to mature but that's not his game. He's above average across the board except power - and his hit/run tools have the chance to be plus. He's overlooked for various reasons. He's 6'0 160lbs, lacks power, wasn't a high draft pick and has Arcia and Hiura sitting in front of him up the middle and both made Top 10 overall on at least one major pub (Dubon hasn't cracked a Top 100 even). He's not a sexy player but he does everything well. There's a reason they bumped him from AA to AAA in 2017 and it wasn't because of his slash line. Outside of a 3wk slump in Aug, 2017 he's pissed on the ball in AAA (home and away) between 2017/2018. He also hits righties and lefties equally well, unlike Perez. Dubon's floor is a much better Perez and his ceiling is a productive starting middle infielder.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

All these mentions of Dubon has me shaking my head in wonder...

 

I don't get the love for this guy.

 

Your skepticism of Dubon is match by my skepticism of Hiura, at least for 2019. I fear that the people expecting him to come up in May and be the answer to our 2B prayers are going to be disappointed. Could he be that someday? Sure ... but rare is the prospect that comes up and is an immediate impact player.

 

Regarding Dubon ... he's a nice player, but probably ultimately has the ceiling of a utility infielder. Think Hernan Perez with much less power and more plate discipline. Useful player, but not a guy that should be starting on a World Series contending team.

You also question Hiura not being ready due to his AA batting average.

A - 333/374/850

A+ - 320/382/911

First full month in AA - 326/380/891 *then hurt wrist* but still finished with 116 wrc+

AZFL after one month off to heal wrist - 323/371/934

There's clearly a pattern here...now combine that with scouts raving about his bat (to the point Mayo says it trails only Vlad Jr in the minors) and Stearns saying his bat was MLB ready in March 2018. People are kidding themselves if they think he won't be up within the first 2-3 months. He doesn't need to be Braun as a rookie. If he merely hits 275/340/800 he's already a significant upgrade to 2018 and an upgrade to every player we're discussing on this thread because he's an every day player hitting both sides equally well.

 

Dubon is a career 300/349/760 hitter being 1.5 - 3.5yrs young every step of the way with 30+ SB and zero concerns about his defense/arm at either SS or 2b. He's around a 6% walk rate with 14% K rate the past 4yrs. High contact, high BA, great bat to ball skills spray hitter, great approach. His power has increased every year as he's added muscle to his frame so he'll probably max out around 10-12HR or so as he continues to mature but that's not his game. He's above average across the board except power - and his hit/run tools have the chance to be plus. He's overlooked for various reasons. He's 6'0 160lbs, lacks power, wasn't a high draft pick and has Arcia and Hiura sitting in front of him up the middle. He's not a sexy player but he does everything well. There's a reason they bumped him from AA to AAA in 2017 and it wasn't because of his slash line. Outside of a 3wk slump in Aug, 2017 he's pissed on the ball in AAA (home and away) between 2017/2018. He also hits righties and lefties equally well, unlike Perez. Dubon's floor is a much better Perez and his ceiling is a productive starting middle infielder.

 

I truly hope you are right about both guys, because the addition of two impact players like that would give the Brewers the best lineup in the NL. I am optimistic of Hiura's chances, but I'm exercising caution. I've avidly followed this team for 30 years, and I can count on one finger how many hitting prospects came up on this sort of timetable and were able to make an impact in the team's history. Braun was and is a generational talent. Is Hiura too? I'd love to think so, but the odds are not in our favor.

[reillymcshane]

Darren Dietrich's defensive numbers at 2B are not that bad. Are they good? No. But they are terrible. In 2016, the year he played his most games at 2B (75), he actually had a positive defensive rating according to Fangraphs and Baseball-Reference. He had -3 Defensive Runs Saved. You could live with that kind of defense.

 

You don't want the guy in the OF. He's terrible there.

 

Between OF, 3B and 2B, Dietrich's best position appears to be 2B. However, that's not saying a lot. He's never going to be good - but with some quality positioning, perhaps he'd be palatable if he could hit for an .800+ OPS. However, he's probably a a left handed bat in a platoon, which is not ideal.

 

I haven't seen the Dietrich much - and he's barely played 2B the last two years - so I'm just going by what I read. If the club thinks they could work with him, he might be an interesting option. As noted by others, he really hits better outside of Marlins park. .816 OPS outside of Miami vs a .696 OPS in Miami.

[PeaveyFury]

Dietrich might be the best offensive option left available at 2B.... the question is whether shifts, etc. can hide enough of the negative impact of his defense to make it worthwhile.

 

At this point, he might be cost effective and a viable option. He likely wouldn't help the lineup's potential issues vs. LHP, though.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

The random guy who broke the Moustakas deal last season indicated that the Brewers are out on Josh Harrison: https://twitter.com/bucksbrett/status/1083810321716908040

 

He seems to think that Moose is still very much in play. I guess we'll see. I'm inclined to think that this guy has actual inside info. He nailed the Moose trade, including all players involved, an hour before anyone else was even close.

 

Part of me wonders if the Brewers made offers to Grandal, Lowrie and LeMahieu, and Grandal was the first to take it.

[Humans Need Water]

I truly hope you are right about both guys, because the addition of two impact players like that would give the Brewers the best lineup in the NL. I am optimistic of Hiura's chances, but I'm exercising caution. I've avidly followed this team for 30 years, and I can count on one finger how many hitting prospects came up on this sort of timetable and were able to make an impact in the team's history. Braun was and is a generational talent. Is Hiura too? I'd love to think so, but the odds are not in our favor.

But the odds aren't in anybody's favor to be a generational talent. Outside of Braun (college) and Fielder (HS) they haven't drafted any impact bats until Hiura (college). Prince was in MLB at the end of his 3rd minor league season out of HS, which is probably equivalent to the Braun/Hiura track for college bats. When you can hit like this you move quick and that goes for every MLB org.

[FVBrewerFan]

Regarding Dubon, I would only add if he had finished the season last year he would have likely been #2 on our Top 25 list. The injury delayed his development, but didn't erase his skills.

 

We really don't know what their plan is for either Hiura or Dubon. Part of it, probably a big part, is in their own hands. But Stearns/CC have always said they'll bring a player up when they think they're "ready." Without paying all that much attention to Super 2 either, FWIW.

[adambr2]

Regarding Dubon, I would only add if he had finished the season last year he would have likely been #2 on our Top 25 list. The injury delayed his development, but didn't erase his skills.

 

We really don't know what their plan is for either Hiura or Dubon. Part of it, probably a big part, is in their own hands. But Stearns/CC have always said they'll bring a player up when they think they're "ready." Without paying all that much attention to Super 2 either, FWIW.

 

Yet almost every promotion they've made has come at a time that generally avoids both Super 2 or the early accrual of a full service year. Which is the right thing to do, IMO. I just wouldn't believe any GM who claimed service time doesn't factor into their promotions. I think it absolutely does, it's just not something they can come out and say.