Solving the Catcher Position for 2019

[TURBO]

I have yet to see or hear any compelling argument as to how Yasmani Grandal is better than Manny Pina...

 

No one is responding because there isn't an answer.

 

I'm fine with Pina being our everyday guy, as long as CC doesn't decide to let Kratz become our everyday guy for whatever reason.

 

Pina isn't our biggest offensive liability. If he is average or above, roll with him, and look for that 2B to plug into our lineup until Keston is ready.

[wallus]

I think the draft pick attached to signing Grandal will lower the market to where we will be a player for him. If we can sign him and Lowrie, I really like our lineup moving forward. I hate to lose the draft pick but we need to make a move for a World Series in 2019.

[3and2Fastball]

I have yet to see or hear any compelling argument as to how Yasmani Grandal is better than Manny Pina...

 

Despite Yasmani Grandal being a year & a half younger than Manny Pina, he already has 483 more games & 1,866 more plate appearances. Yasmani was a full time starter at age 25, it took Manny until he was 30 to crack 300 PAs in a season.

 

MP 2017-18 | 266/317/410 (90 wRC+) 696 PAs

YG 2017-18 | 244/329/462 (114 wRC+) 1,000 PAs

MP career | 263/318/401 (90 wRC+) 794 PAs

YG career | 240/341/441 (117 wRC+) 2,660 PAs

 

In 2018 & 2017 Yasmani ranked 1st & 4th by BPro's catching metric which include framing, blocking & throwing. Pina ranked 19th & 31st.

 

Thanks! Much appreciated

[And That]

I have yet to see or hear any compelling argument as to how Yasmani Grandal is better than Manny Pina...

 

No one is responding because there isn't an answer.

Literally the post above yours.

[tmwiese55]

he also hits better as a lefty which is ideal with obviously more P being RH and with Pina batting righty. If you can get this down to a 2 year commitment/risk I'm more on board, really struggle to go beyond that in MKE's situation. Although he was in the PED suspension so we can't have guys like that...

[pacopete4]

Pina just can't be counted on to be "the guy". He is a fine catcher but needs to catch like 70-80 games, max.

[clancyphile]

I find myself wondering... after the successful rejuvenation of Miley, could the same happen with Lucroy thanks to the Brewers' analytics and the tech they are using?

 

Would come cheap, no pick gets lost...

[wallus]

Pina just can't be counted on to be "the guy". He is a fine catcher but needs to catch like 70-80 games, max.

 

I think you're right. It is my recollection that he appeared to wear down some when played heavily for long stretches. I like Stearn's strategy of having quality depth and having Pina as a backup/50% starter would mesh well with that.

[reillymcshane]

I find myself wondering... after the successful rejuvenation of Miley, could the same happen with Lucroy thanks to the Brewers' analytics and the tech they are using?

 

Would come cheap, no pick gets lost...

I read that the A's made an offer to Lucroy - one year and around $5M. He turned it down. Not sure how accurate the info was.

[tmwiese55]

Pina just can't be counted on to be "the guy". He is a fine catcher but needs to catch like 70-80 games, max.

 

I think you're right. It is my recollection that he appeared to wear down some when played heavily for long stretches. I like Stearn's strategy of having quality depth and having Pina as a backup/50% starter would mesh well with that.

 

I get that, maybe up to 100. But, if you have a guy who can cover at least half the games fairly well do you neeeed to spend a ton to cover the other half. Someone smarter than me can maybe find a more cost efficient lefty hitter (ala what Vogt was when we got him) to split with him who can hit RH pitching ok. Basically do what they're doing with Kratz but someone who can hit above pitcher level

[wallus]

 

I think you're right. It is my recollection that he appeared to wear down some when played heavily for long stretches. I like Stearn's strategy of having quality depth and having Pina as a backup/50% starter would mesh well with that.

 

I get that, maybe up to 100. But, if you have a guy who can cover at least half the games fairly well do you neeeed to spend a ton to cover the other half. Someone smarter than me can maybe find a more cost efficient lefty hitter (alo what Vogt was when we got him) to split with him who can RH pitching ok. Basically do what they're doing with Kratz but someone who can hit above pitcher level

 

I just really do not want to punt on offensive production from the catching position this year. I think we are sticking with Arcia at shortstop which makes sense but it is hard to say what we will get from him at the plate. Having the 7,8, and 9 spots in the lineup being possible black holes is concerning for a contending team.

[TURBO]

I find myself wondering... after the successful rejuvenation of Miley, could the same happen with Lucroy thanks to the Brewers' analytics and the tech they are using?

 

Would come cheap, no pick gets lost...

I read that the A's made an offer to Lucroy - one year and around $5M. He turned it down. Not sure how accurate the info was.

 

If that is true, he made a foolish decision.

[tmwiese55]

 

I think you're right. It is my recollection that he appeared to wear down some when played heavily for long stretches. I like Stearn's strategy of having quality depth and having Pina as a backup/50% starter would mesh well with that.

 

I get that, maybe up to 100. But, if you have a guy who can cover at least half the games fairly well do you neeeed to spend a ton to cover the other half. Someone smarter than me can maybe find a more cost efficient lefty hitter (alo what Vogt was when we got him) to split with him who can RH pitching ok. Basically do what they're doing with Kratz but someone who can hit above pitcher level

 

I just really do not want to punt on offensive production from the catching position this year. I think we are sticking with Arcia at shortstop which makes sense but it is hard to say what we will get from him at the plate. Having the 7,8, and 9 spots in the lineup being possible black holes is concerning for a contending team.

 

Me too, as you can see be my posts on Kratz. However, Grandal is a 240/333ish type expectation, that's nothing awesome. now I know he does have the power to make up for it and our park should fit him well, but I'm saying I'd hope you can find a platoon guy who can 250/310. combine him with Pina and you're not really far off on the AVG/OBP areas, you're just missing the 10ish extra HRs while saving a ton of money you could spend on an IF. I see both sides of course and this side is reliant on finding a respectable lefty hitter to platoon who wants to come here. I don't know who that would be and if it exists. Unfortunately I think they think they already have that type of guy in Kratz...

[sveumrules]

I have yet to see or hear any compelling argument as to how Yasmani Grandal is better than Manny Pina...

 

No one is responding because there isn't an answer.

Literally the post above yours.

 

That feeling when you find out turborickey has you on ignore.

[Eye Black]

According to Ken Rosenthal during an MLB Network segment yesterday, the Brewers offered Wilson Ramos a one year deal. Ramos obviously ultimately signed with the Mets for two years and $19 million.

[CheezWizHed]

I find myself wondering... after the successful rejuvenation of Miley, could the same happen with Lucroy thanks to the Brewers' analytics and the tech they are using?

 

Would come cheap, no pick gets lost...

 

I'm going to say no even at the vet min. I loved what Lucroy was for us, but he isn't that player anymore. His last two seasons were almost identical outside of Colorado:

2017: .242/.297/.338/.635

2018: .241/.291/.325/.617

Perhaps if you consider him a backup catcher, but I don't know that Pina is clearly a starter.

 

I'm not 100% sure if Grandal is the "right" catcher to sign, but I wouldn't be concerned with the draft pick compensation if he is... We have a team built for the next 2-3 years (at least). Time to shore up the holes and win a crown rather than continual fight for a playoff spot.

[Eye Black]

An interesting note from today’s LA Times article, What's next for the Dodgers?...

 

Yasmani Grandal, who turned down the Dodgers’ $17.9-million qualifying offer, remains a free agent after declining a four-year, $60-million offer from the New York Mets, according to a person with knowledge of the situation. But a Los Angeles reunion with the catcher is unlikely unless he is willing to sign a short contract. If Realmuto isn’t an option, the Dodgers, with catching prospects Will Smith and Keibert Ruiz nearing the majors, would prefer a one-year stopgap. Choices in that aisle include the Pittsburgh Pirates’ Francisco Cervelli, who is entering the final year of his contract, and free agent Martin Maldonado.

 

With a shrinking number of teams looking for starting catchers I’ll be surprised if Grandal significantly exceeds that reported offer of 4-years, $60 million. I would bet on Grandal signing with the Phillies at this point, but if not (and assuming he doesn’t return to the Dodgers) the rest of the field seems narrowed down to the A’s, Rockies, Brewers, Reds, Red Sox, and Padres. The Astros, White Sox, Rays, Braves, and Angels could certainly remain in play as well, but they may be satisfied enough with either their other catching additions from this offseason or other available options. The Indians could be a darkhorse I guess, and if the Pirates move Cervelli than maybe they would be interested.

[MNBrew]

I don't think a Pina/Kratz or Pina/Nottingham combo is the bee's knees or anything, but they're decent enough and 2B is by far a more glaring issue with a stud SP and then another strong reliever next on the priority list.

 

I think Grandal's more than a bit overrated and definitely overpriced for the difference between him & Pina (Dodgers media attention syndrome) and I don't want Realmuto at anywhere near the mint the Marlins are apparently asking for.

 

If the Brewers are going to shell out major coin or asset value, it needs to be where the upgrade is most needed. Pina was below-the-Mendoza-line-lousy at the plate in the 1st half and a black hole w/ RISP for the whole year, but he hit much closer to his career norms in the 2nd half and that level of hitting success is quite acceptable if 2B production can be significantly upgraded by player acquisition. I also think that Pina's defense is still a little underrated -- he wasn't a Gold Glove finalist just because he's a nice guy.

[wallus]

4 years and 60 million sounds like a pretty good contract for a catcher like Grandal. I am surprised he didn't go with it. How much more does he expect to get?

[MNBrew]

Man, I just looked at Grandal's stats more carefully, then at Pina & Realmuto. I don't get the fascination. He's alright but he's really not that great of a hitter. Yes, he's averaged 24 HRs & 66 RBIs per year the past 3 years, but with a .240-ish BA, .330-ish OBP. Pina's been a better hitter for average even with 2018's atrocious first half, he's a .265 hitter the past 3 years, OBP'd right at .330, and had 500 fewer MLB ABs than Grandal, so RBI/AB rate is 78% of what Grandal's has been in that same time -- not shabby at all, especially for Pina's cost, which also comes w/ defense recognized as being among the best this past year (Gold Glove nominee, thus at least somewhat non-metric).

[trwi7]

Man, I just looked at Grandal's stats more carefully, then at Pina & Realmuto. I don't get the fascination. He's alright but he's really not that great of a hitter. Yes, he's averaged 24 HRs & 66 RBIs per year the past 3 years, but with a .240-ish BA, .330-ish OBP. Pina's been a better hitter for average even with 2018's atrocious first half, he's a .265 hitter the past 3 years, OBP'd right at .330, and had 500 fewer MLB ABs than Grandal, so RBI/AB rate is 78% of what Grandal's has been in that same time -- not shabby at all, especially for Pina's cost, which also comes w/ defense recognized as being among the best this past year (Gold Glove nominee, thus at least somewhat non-metric).

 

Grandal has never had a below average offensive season and Pina has never had an above average offensive season. I don't necessarily want Grandal but he's a pretty significant upgrade over Pina offensively while still being an above average defender. And Grandal is a year and a half younger to boot.

[RollieTime]

Man, I just looked at Grandal's stats more carefully, then at Pina & Realmuto. I don't get the fascination. He's alright but he's really not that great of a hitter. Yes, he's averaged 24 HRs & 66 RBIs per year the past 3 years, but with a .240-ish BA, .330-ish OBP. Pina's been a better hitter for average even with 2018's atrocious first half, he's a .265 hitter the past 3 years, OBP'd right at .330, and had 500 fewer MLB ABs than Grandal, so RBI/AB rate is 78% of what Grandal's has been in that same time -- not shabby at all, especially for Pina's cost, which also comes w/ defense recognized as being among the best this past year (Gold Glove nominee, thus at least somewhat non-metric).

 

Grandal has never had a below average offensive season and Pina has never had an above average offensive season. I don't necessarily want Grandal but he's a pretty significant upgrade over Pina offensively while still being an above average defender. And Grandal is a year and a half younger to boot.

 

There are better ways to improve the roster than to increase payroll by roughly $14 million for a marginal upgrade at catcher. Ramos was a much better hitter and he signed for much less than Grandal. I don’t see Stearns giving Grandal anything close to what he wants if he wouldn’t even offer a two year deal for Ramos. If we are signing a catcher this offseason, it’ll probably be on a one year deal, maybe with a team option for a second season.

[DHonks]

Pina will likely do better next year as well

[sveumrules]

Man, I just looked at Grandal's stats more carefully, then at Pina & Realmuto. I don't get the fascination. He's alright but he's really not that great of a hitter. Yes, he's averaged 24 HRs & 66 RBIs per year the past 3 years, but with a .240-ish BA, .330-ish OBP. Pina's been a better hitter for average even with 2018's atrocious first half, he's a .265 hitter the past 3 years, OBP'd right at .330, and had 500 fewer MLB ABs than Grandal, so RBI/AB rate is 78% of what Grandal's has been in that same time -- not shabby at all, especially for Pina's cost, which also comes w/ defense recognized as being among the best this past year (Gold Glove nominee, thus at least somewhat non-metric).

 

Grandal career 240/341/441 (117 wRC+)

M Pina career 263/318/407 (90 wRC+)

 

Manny hitting for a better average is pretty meaningless when he still has a lower OBP & SLG while also playing in a more hitter friendly park, thus the massive edge in wRC+ for Yasmani.

 

Pina's batting line is pretty much right in line with a league average catcher, so he is alright. That Yasmani has been over 25% better does make him pretty great by comparison.

[trwi7]

Pina will likely do better next year as well

 

Why? Just because? I'd say it's much more likely he keeps the .285 BABIP he had this year than the .339 he had in 2017 considering his batted ball profile and umm, lack of speed.