2018-10-17 (NLCS Game #5): Brewers (Miley) at Dodgers (Kershaw) 4:05 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 5-2]

[StearnsFTW]

And those of us who believe clutchness is a thing don't believe that the absence of easily quantifiable proof doesn't mean a thing doesn't exist.

 

It it equally puzzling to me that people deny a very simple human reality that some people handle pressure much better than others.

 

There is no evidence of clutchness. There are plenty of outliers both ways.

[StearnsFTW]

I can't believe there is still a debate about RBIs. In 2018. And "clutchness". Lordy.

 

Haha, did you catch the Infield Fly Rule discussion last night as well?

 

You mean when Muncy inexplicably didn't drop that pop up? Are you referring to the IGT?

[KeithStone53151]

I can't believe there is still a debate about RBIs. In 2018. And "clutchness". Lordy.

 

RBI and being clutch are 2 different things. RBI's are heavily dependent on the rest of your team, how many games you play, where in the order you hit, etc. Being clutch is moreso how you handle an intense pressure situation. Some will handle it better than others, fact.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Yeah...that was my point. It's hard to provide "evidence" of something that nobody can quantify because nobody will agree on a definition of it. You can go with RISP or something and someone else will say RISP is different in mid May than late September, or that is different if the pitcher is Clayton Kershaw, Jimmy Nelson or Jesse Orosco.

 

You can't quantify it. That makes people easily dismiss it, which to me, is simply taking an "out" of the debate. Comments that it shouldn't be debated in 2018 don't make you right, it just makes you sound kind of smug.

[tmwiese55]

I can't believe there is still a debate about RBIs. In 2018. And "clutchness". Lordy.

 

Haha, did you catch the Infield Fly Rule discussion last night as well?

 

You mean when Muncy inexplicably didn't drop that pop up? Are you referring to the IGT?

 

IGT thread that the rule should not exist.

 

I remember Smoltz saying that though, he was right on it. Just very tough for someone to think that quickly.

[pitchleague]

Ugh. Late night and now sitting at work.

 

Game starts at 2 pm AZ time so I'm recording it on my DVR and turning my phone off after lunch. Won't get home until about 6 pm AZ time so game likely to be over (or close to it.) Radio silence all day and then watch when I get home--could be another long night.

[Roderick]

I can't believe there is still a debate about RBIs. In 2018. And "clutchness". Lordy.

 

Haha, did you catch the Infield Fly Rule discussion last night as well?

 

If they would have dropped that ball, I think they could have had a double play. Aguilar was jogging down to first.

 

So go to 1B first, then you have the tag play on Yelich trying to get to 2nd.

 

Obviously more risky then anyone would try in the playoffs. But, if for some reason the ball takes a really weird hop, you go straight to 2B to be safe.

[Oxy]

And those of us who believe clutchness is a thing don't believe that the absence of easily quantifiable proof doesn't mean a thing doesn't exist.

 

It it equally puzzling to me that people deny a very simple human reality that some people handle pressure much better than others.

 

There is no evidence of clutchness. There are plenty of outliers both ways.

 

The odds of Daniel Carlson missing that 3rd field goal at Lambeau a few weeks back were a lot higher than it would have been if he had made the first two. Only a robot might think otherwise.

[topper09er]

 

You mean when Muncy inexplicably didn't drop that pop up? Are you referring to the IGT?

 

IGT thread that the rule should not exist.

 

 

You have still dodged the question.

 

Why should you be allowed to turn a DP on a ground ball but not a fly ball?

[tmwiese55]

If people missed it earlier, again I think the right way to discuss clutchness is that people are more likely to choke but you don't all of a sudden get better due to a 'clutch' situation. You just don't let it bother you and you are your normal self, that is all the more 'clutch' you can be. Long story short, choking is probably a real thing but all of a sudden getting better is not. A .280 hitter isn't gonna turn into a .400 when the game is on the line, but a .280 could turn into .200 when he's tensed up.

[KeithStone53151]

I'm so curious to see what this lineup looks like today. I'm not all that surprised it is taking longer to post than it has most games in the NLCS. I think yesterdays lineup was posted over 4 hours prior to gametime.

[tmwiese55]

 

You mean when Muncy inexplicably didn't drop that pop up? Are you referring to the IGT?

 

IGT thread that the rule should not exist.

 

 

You have still dodged the question.

 

Why should you be allowed to turn a DP on a ground ball but not a fly ball?

 

I said it. First, you can if the runner does not run hard to first with one guy on base. So it does allow a DP on a flyball if you don't hustle. so it allows a DP involving the hitter. The rule prevents you from doubling up other people who were already on base and not the hitter. And prevents possible crap triple plays. Beyond that, it eliminates the gamesmanship BS that would create a mess on the field anytime of an infield fly with multiple runners where the runners are caught in no man's land. This is all obvious to everyone but you apparently.

[Surhoff5]

Yeah...that was my point. It's hard to provide "evidence" of something that nobody can quantify because nobody will agree on a definition of it. You can go with RISP or something and someone else will say RISP is different in mid May than late September, or that is different if the pitcher is Clayton Kershaw, Jimmy Nelson or Jesse Orosco.

 

You can't quantify it. That makes people easily dismiss it, which to me, is simply taking an "out" of the debate. Comments that it shouldn't be debated in 2018 don't make you right, it just makes you sound kind of smug.

 

You can't quantify because there is no predictive value with it. David Ortiz dominated the playoffs in 2007 and then completely stunk in 2008. Did he suddenly become "unclutch"? Alex Rodriguez was known as one of the most "uncluth" players ever and then suddenly dominated in the 2009 playoffs? Did he suddenly become "clutch"?

[shanedog19]

Any chance Domingo could spell Aguilar at 1B for a game? He looks like he could use a day off like many other of our regulars.

[B-Train]

If people missed it earlier, again I think the right way to discuss clutchness is that people are more likely to choke but you don't all of a sudden get better due to a 'clutch' situation. You just don't let it bother you and you are your normal self, that is all the more 'clutch' you can be. Long story short, choking is probably a real thing but all of a sudden getting better is not. A .280 hitter isn't gonna turn into a .400 when the game is on the line, but a .280 could turn into .200 when he's tensed up.

 

Just a thought: How about pitchers, specifically closers. Would they be more likely to be classified as clutch performers (if it is a thing) as some perform better with a high leverage situation than with say a 5 run lead? Most closers don't choke. In fact, most pitch better in those higher intensity situations.

[KeithStone53151]

Any chance Domingo could spell Aguilar at 1B for a game? He looks like he could use a day off like many other of our regulars.

 

No, outside chance Braun plays 1b and Santana in RF. But Santana wouldn't play 1b.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Any chance Domingo could spell Aguilar at 1B for a game? He looks like he could use a day off like many other of our regulars.

 

I don't think Domingo has ever logged an ML inning at 1B, so I would say that's the longest of longshots. We's see Braun there before Domingo.

 

If I remember right, I think the Astros tried him there in the lower minors, and it didn't go well. You'd think with his stature he'd be able to do it, though.

[tmwiese55]

If people missed it earlier, again I think the right way to discuss clutchness is that people are more likely to choke but you don't all of a sudden get better due to a 'clutch' situation. You just don't let it bother you and you are your normal self, that is all the more 'clutch' you can be. Long story short, choking is probably a real thing but all of a sudden getting better is not. A .280 hitter isn't gonna turn into a .400 when the game is on the line, but a .280 could turn into .200 when he's tensed up.

 

Just a thought: How about pitchers, specifically closers. Would they be more likely to be classified as clutch performers (if it is a thing) as some perform better with a high leverage situation than with say a 5 run lead? Most closers don't choke. In fact, most pitch better in those higher intensity situations.

 

Good question. Never thought of that way. Spitballing I'd say that their normal closer self is the real them and the non close situation they lose focus a bit. Similar to say if it's a 15-2 game and Braun just basically flushes an AB down the drain because it doesn't matter. Beyond that, I'd also guess that it is our perception due to noticing when it happens but it's probably not supported by stats. Open to hear anyone else's thoughts though.

[topper09er]

 

I said it. First, you can if the runner does not run hard to first with one guy on base. So it does allow a DP on a flyball if you don't hustle. so it allows a DP involving the hitter.

 

Maybe you don't know what the rule is, but it is not in effect with one guy on base, and no it does not allow you to turn a DP if the hitter doesn't hustle. If the hitter stands at the plate he is already out and there is no chance at a DP.

 

The rule prevents you from doubling up other people who were already on base and not the hitter.

 

Right, so why can you do that on a ground ball but not a fly ball?

 

Beyond that, it eliminates the gamesmanship BS that would create a mess on the field anytime of an infield fly with multiple runners where the runners are caught in no man's land. This is all obvious to everyone but you apparently.

 

I don't necessarily think the rule should go away, just that it is dumb because it exists for this reason and in my opinion there is no good answer to my basic question: Why are you allowed to turn a DP on a ground ball but not a fly ball.

 

Also, if you don't want your runners in no man's land then don't hit an infield fly. Back in game 3 Braun hit a ball that sort of left Yelich in no man's land, so should there be some rule to prevent that from happening?

[KeithStone53151]

Classic lineup. Everyone that played 13 innings yesterday is in there again today. I find that annoying and stupid, but here's hoping it works out.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Yeah...that was my point. It's hard to provide "evidence" of something that nobody can quantify because nobody will agree on a definition of it. You can go with RISP or something and someone else will say RISP is different in mid May than late September, or that is different if the pitcher is Clayton Kershaw, Jimmy Nelson or Jesse Orosco.

 

You can't quantify it. That makes people easily dismiss it, which to me, is simply taking an "out" of the debate. Comments that it shouldn't be debated in 2018 don't make you right, it just makes you sound kind of smug.

 

You can't quantify because there is no predictive value with it. David Ortiz dominated the playoffs in 2007 and then completely stunk in 2008. Did he suddenly become "unclutch"? Alex Rodriguez was known as one of the most "uncluth" players ever and then suddenly dominated in the 2009 playoffs? Did he suddenly become "clutch"?

 

Because again, there are a million moving parts within the examples you just gave.

 

In no way does that mean certain people don't crack under pressure. I don't get the argument, really. Do people really believe that some aren't better at handling pressure than others? I don't get how a person can think that, just by living on Earth and interacting with others, forget about in sports.

 

Basically this whole "clutch doesn't exist" thing came about because some stats guys debunked a bunch of guys typically thought of as being "very clutch." That doesn't disprove a thing about the basis of the argument.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Classic lineup. Everyone that played 13 innings yesterday is in there again today. I find that annoying and stupid, but here's hoping it works out.

 

Who are you going to change out at this point? Perez is in there for Schoop, and Kratz is in there for Pina. Santana isn't going to play for Braun or Yelich. No way, no how. Granderson isn't going to draw a start against Kershaw. Kershaw is also a horrible matchup for Shaw.

[KeithStone53151]

Classic lineup. Everyone that played 13 innings yesterday is in there again today. I find that annoying and stupid, but here's hoping it works out.

 

Who are you going to change out at this point? Perez is in there for Schoop, and Kratz is in there for Pina. Santana isn't going to play for Braun or Yelich. No way, no how. Granderson isn't going to draw a start against Kershaw. Kershaw is also a horrible matchup for Shaw.

 

I've been pretty clear, I'd pull either Cain or Aguilar today...also I'd have Shaw at 3b for Moose. Those guys would be available off the bench, but they are all older guys that played 13+ innings yesterday...their bodies won't be close to 100% for a matchup against Kershaw.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Pulling Cain is crazy talk dude. You don't bench a guy that is going to get MVP votes in Game 5 of the NLCS for Curtis Granderson. Shaw should not be in there with Kershaw. No offense but I am glad you aren't setting the lineup.

[tmwiese55]

 

I said it. First, you can if the runner does not run hard to first with one guy on base. So it does allow a DP on a flyball if you don't hustle. so it allows a DP involving the hitter.

 

Maybe you don't know what the rule is, but it is not in effect with one guy on base, and no it does not allow you to turn a DP if the hitter doesn't hustle. If the hitter stands at the plate he is already out and there is no chance at a DP.

 

The rule prevents you from doubling up other people who were already on base and not the hitter.

 

Right, so why can you do that on a ground ball but not a fly ball?

 

Beyond that, it eliminates the gamesmanship BS that would create a mess on the field anytime of an infield fly with multiple runners where the runners are caught in no man's land. This is all obvious to everyone but you apparently.

 

I don't necessarily think the rule should go away, just that it is dumb because it exists for this reason and in my opinion there is no good answer to my basic question: Why are you allowed to turn a DP on a ground ball but not a fly ball.

 

Also, if you don't want your runners in no man's land then don't hit an infield fly. Back in game 3 Braun hit a ball that sort of left Yelich in no man's land, so should there be some rule to prevent that from happening?

 

You misinterpreted what I said. Because it doesn't exist with only one on you ARE allowed to turn a DP on a fly ball if the hitter doesn't hustle. That seems to be your main point, again you are allowed in that situation or any flyball when a guy doesn't go back. It goes into effect when there is more on so that you can't double off people who are not the hitter who had nothing to do with it. You'd be doubling two runners off, not "double playing" the hitter. The tradeoff is that yes when more on than one you can't, that is what it is.

 

Simplest answer to Why that you're all about here is simply because in a groundball situation there is no ability to play trickery with runners, in this situation there is.