Is this the best Brewer team?

[MrTPlush]

I've seen that phrasing before regarding 2011 not being a real WS contender. They had a 1-0 lead with home field advantage in the NLCS and home field in the WS. That in itself seems like a WS contender to me. They were the Vegas favorite with 4 teams left.

 

Yah, anyone calling them not a true WS contender is living in retrospect.

[StearnsFTW]

Yeah, that 2011 team wasn't the best team in the NL, but they were certainly contenders. I think the Cardinals were better and probably the Phillies as well. Definitely a top 5 Brewer team ever though.

[tmwiese55]

Phillies were definitely the best overall team. Yet another example of the old "gotta have aces in the playoffs" not being the end all be all. I was so jacked when they got knocked out, gave us home field and didn't have to face those pitchers. But of course, Cardinals...

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think 2011 was the best team since 1982, but I think this team is the best team for a playoff series, which really is not the same as being the best team for 162 games.

 

I think the current roster is constructed to get to the playoffs and then manipulate the series format to its strengths. The offense has a nice mix of young talent with OBP veterans who've played in huge games and been successful. The defense saves a lot of runs. It's a roster with such depth and so many moving parts that you can twist them a lot of ways to manipulate matchups and beat anybody in a single game.

 

I want the division so badly because I really think we are poised to make a run.

[coolhandluke121]

2011 had an easier schedule and much better injury luck. They didn't have the depth to do what this team is doing with pinch-hitters and double switches. I think relying on the same player every single day at a given position can lead to a little fatigue. Wolf and Marcum were good overall, but were running on fumes by the end of the year. Guys like Morgan, Wolf, and Narveson in particular really benefited from the easy schedule. The defense was so-so. Yuni and McGehee were awful. Lucroy wasn't good yet. Hairston was no better than Hernan. Guys like Hart and Weeks were a little overrated IMO. Kotsay and Counsell were bad. Baseball is more about depth than superstars, although 2018 has both.

 

Obviously I didn't like that team as much, but I agree with the people that said they felt like a pretender. Greinke and Gallardo made a big difference, but this team is using its bullpen depth to achieve similar results. Management is a huge advantage for 2018 as well. It just seemed like the Brewers were completely exposed when they faced a team with similar talent that was, for lack of a better word, more professional. Those Cardinals had some regular season issues that were addressed in time for the playoffs, just like the Brewers this year. If this Brewers team was as healthy as 2011 and together almost all year, they would be chasing 100 wins against a tougher schedule. I don't know how much "replicability" is a factor in this discussion, but I guess I would say it should be a factor in the sense that it helps predict how well a team's success will continue in the postseason, and I think 2018 has the edge there.

 

1982 was probably better, but I was 3 years old so....

[bork]

1982 had 4 future Hall of Famers. Obviously a long way off, but are there any Hall of Famers on this team? Yelich would have to keep it up for at least another decade and stay healthy.

[istanbultaye]

Of the top contributors Yelich is the only one that could really be considered likely, but he's in a somewhat similar position to Braun in '11 (having a really good 6 year start to the career). Based on their age & performance this year, Hader would be the only other one that could be remotely thought of as maybe being a HoFer by the end of their playing days. He'd have to pull a Mariano Rivera and do what he did this year 15 more times though. Anyone else on the team making HoF would really not have much to do with their performance this season.

[coolhandluke121]

1982 had 4 future Hall of Famers. Obviously a long way off, but are there any Hall of Famers on this team? Yelich would have to keep it up for at least another decade and stay healthy.

 

The '84 team had the same 4 guys and won 67 games. Granted, Molitor was hurt, but they still had 3. This might be a worthy way to summarize a team's talent in the NBA, but it's all but irrelevant in baseball.

 

Besides, closers in the hall are kind of a joke. You could literally have had thousands of different guys who could have accomplished the same thing as some of those guys if they had been fortunate enough to suck at starting and end up in the bullpen with a closer gig.

[SRB]

1982 had 4 future Hall of Famers. Obviously a long way off, but are there any Hall of Famers on this team? Yelich would have to keep it up for at least another decade and stay healthy.

 

Hall of Fame is often more about longevity than peak value. Obviously 2018 Yelich is way more talented than elderly 1982 Don Sutton.

[Underachiever]

Yea I'd say 2011 was better than this on paper and even going into the postseason. Mostly due to the Greinke/Gallardo top of rotation along with a loaded offensive lineup. It's not like they backed in like in 2008 either.

 

Probably a good thread to ask this to some of the long timers alive to remember 82. Uecker said last night the Brewers had the better team in 82 than STL but had some guys hurt or unable to go in the WS. I don't recall what he was referring to, any care to share who was hurt for that Series or what he was referring to?

Injuries were a factor. I know Fingers was mentioned, that was the killer. However, Gorman was hobbled by, I believe, a bad hamstring. He was running like he was on skates during the series. He caught a ball on the warning track in Game 4 and Ozzie Smith scored from second on the sac fly. A two-run sac fly!

 

No question Vuckovich was not himself, either. He showed up with a bad rotator cuff in spring training 1983, and I believe that he was hurting in the Series. I remember him walking around the mound a lot in game seven, picking mud out of his cleats, lots of rosin bag grabs. I think he was trying to buy time.

 

Crap, I sound like an old man.

[PinaMadness]

To even be considered the best team in history they would have to win the World Series, and although the 1982 team lost to the Cards, I still don't think this year's team is better. Four Hall of Famers on the team, two of which are first ballot, and one, Ted Simmons, that should be in. I don't see one Hall of Famer on this team yet. Braun has a legitimate shot, and Yelich could very well turn out to be the greatest Brewer ever. Just have to let time tell. Vukovich won the Cy Young that year as well. Better starting rotation and an astronomically better offense, but probably not a better bullpen other than Fingers. And as someone else said before, if Fingers is healthy, the Brewers more than likely win that series. Maybe even in five games. It was an upset win for the Cardinals, and until the Brewers finally win a World Series, it will haunt me the rest of my life.

[SRB]

In a hypothetical playoff series, I'm going with the darkhorse 1978 Brewers

 

The lineup has to be the deepest and most balanced in Brewers history. Among guys with 400+ PA:

 

3B Sal Bando .285/.371/.439, .366 wOBA, 5.6 fWAR

LF Larry Hisle .290/.374/.533, .403 wOBA, 5.0 fWAR

1B/2B/3B Don Money .293/.361/.440, .363 wOBA, 4.4 fWAR

SS Robin Yount .293/.323/.428, .336 wOBA, 4.4 fWAR

OF/1B Ben Oglivie .303/.370/.497, .383 wOBA, 3.8 fWAR

RF Sixto Lezcano .292/.377/.459, .374 wOBA, 3.7 fWAR

CF Gorman Thomas .246/.351/.515, .385 wOBA, 3.5 fWAR

1B Cecil Cooper .312/.359/.474, .372 wOBA, 2.8 fWAR

2B/SS Paul Molitor .273/.301/.372, .303 wOBA, 2.2 fWAR

 

And with two workhorses in the rotation they probably had the highest fWAR among any 1-2 in Brewers history:

 

Mike Caldwell 293.1 IP, 2.36 ERA, 2.94 FIP, 6.3 fWAR

Lary Sorsensen 280.2 IP, 3.21 ERA, 3.27 FIP, 5.0 fWAR

Jerry Augustine 188.1 IP, 4.54 ERA, 3.96 FIP, 1.7

 

Not much of a bullpen, but that's because amazingly they only used 13 pitchers all season! (And Bill Castro was effective out of the pen, 49.2 IP, 1.81 ERA)

 

So in a Game 1 you could have:

 

SP Caldwell (2.36 ERA, 2.94 FIP, 8.6 IP/GS)

 

RF Lezcano (.374 wOBA)

DH Hisle (.403 wOBA)

LF Oglivie (.383 wOBA)

CF Thomas (.385 wOBA)

3B Bando (.366 wOBA)

1B Cooper (.372 wOBA)

2B Money (.363 wOBA)

SS Yount (.336 wOBA)

C Moore (.300 wOBA)

 

Insane! And your bench bat is Paul Molitor

[ClosetBrewerFan]

This year's bullpen is by far the best in club history. The offense, defense, and pitching is very good but probably not the best. Fan fact: Jeffress, Burnes, and Hader have a W-L record of 21 - 2! Once we get the ball to them, good things happen.

[istanbultaye]

This year's bullpen is by far the best in club history. The offense, defense, and pitching is very good but probably not the best. Fan fact: Jeffress, Burnes, and Hader have a W-L record of 21 - 2! Once we get the ball to them, good things happen.

 

This year, especially when you also include the analytics/positioning, is likely the the best defense the Brewers have ever had. Counsell has done a good job of getting the top D in with a lead as well, when using lineups that compromise the D.

[Jimbo]

Injuries were a factor. I know Fingers was mentioned, that was the killer. However, Gorman was hobbled by, I believe, a bad hamstring. He was running like he was on skates during the series. He caught a ball on the warning track in Game 4 and Ozzie Smith scored from second on the sac fly. A two-run sac fly!

 

No question Vuckovich was not himself, either. He showed up with a bad rotator cuff in spring training 1983, and I believe that he was hurting in the Series. I remember him walking around the mound a lot in game seven, picking mud out of his cleats, lots of rosin bag grabs. I think he was trying to buy time.

 

Crap, I sound like an old man.

 

One player no one ever mentions is Larry Hisle. He played a few games in April before being lost for the season. Imagine him as DH with his 1979 numbers in place of Money/Howell.

[Jimbo]

I'm partial to the 79 team that won 95 games. Top to bottom, that was the best everyday lineup and unlike this year's team which made significant additions at the deadline, every key contributor was there all season.

 

Briggs beats me to it. I wish to nominate '79 for at least top three. Hisle, Cooper, Lezcano and Yount's breakthrough season. The most wins by a team until 2011.

 

As mentioned above, the '78-'83 teams pretty much had set rosters the entire season. None of this 40-man manipulation stuff by Harry Dalton. Plus, this year's team struggled to score at times.

[Invader3K]

Of the teams I'm old enough to remember, I think that at least on paper, the 1992 and 2011 teams were all around better than this club.

 

'92 was such a gut punch year. I was 12 at the time, and remember it fairly well. It also hurt extra bad when Molitor signed with Toronto in the off-season. I believe Chris Bosio also left the team in free agency, which hurt the starting rotation a lot.

[clancyphile]

Yea that's the weak spot in 2011. Why he started Kotsay with Morgan/Gomez IDK. But this team also has very weak hitting SS and C their holes. Plus not nearly the TOR starters of 2011. Also had a very good bullpen that year too. I see the argument of course, I'd just say the Greinke/Gallardo combo is enough to outweigh that Yuni B issue. Not old enough to comment on the 80s teams.

 

Thanks for Fingers info, surprised I didn't know that or had forgotten it.

 

Was a military kid in the 1980s, so didn't really follow those teams.

 

I think the 2011 was good, minus Kotsay and Yuni. But Prince and Braun leading the way was awesome to behold...

 

This team, I think, is better. There is an offensive black hole at shortstop (which can be remedied by starting Schoop over Arcia). Pina and Kratz aren't Lucroy, but they haven't been awful.

 

A lights-out pen... starters that are good enough...

 

Plus, they are hot.

 

We will know for sure if this is the best Brewers team of all time in a month or so.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Of the teams I'm old enough to remember, I think that at least on paper, the 1992 and 2011 teams were all around better than this club.

 

'92 was such a gut punch year. I was 12 at the time, and remember it fairly well. It also hurt extra bad when Molitor signed with Toronto in the off-season. I believe Chris Bosio also left the team in free agency, which hurt the starting rotation a lot.

 

That 1992 team was the first I followed super closely. They were a really fun team to root for. The lineup was a nice mix of legends (Yount, Molitor) cagey vets (Gantner, Scotty Fletcher, Kevin Seitzer) and young studs (Greg Vaughn, Dante Bichette, B.J. Surhoff, Daryl Hamilton, John Jaha). I remember being crushed when Bill Spiers went down with an injury early on, and they brought up a no-name minor leaguer to replace him. Pat Listach went on to be the table setter for that incredible club.

 

Perhaps the best part of that team was the pitching. Everyone remembers Cal Eldred coming up to replace an ineffective Rob Robinson in the rotation, and the great numbers Eldred put up. But Bosio, Navarro and Bill Wegmen were spectacular that year as well, while Bones held his own after coming over in the Sheffield deal. That was also the weird year that Plesac was removed from the closer's role, and tried as a starter for some time. Mike Fetters, James Austin, Old Man Jesse Orosco and Darren Holmes were bullpen studs that year. I remember Doug Henry blowing quite a few saves that year as well.

[clancyphile]

I'm partial to the 79 team that won 95 games. Top to bottom, that was the best everyday lineup and unlike this year's team which made significant additions at the deadline, every key contributor was there all season.

 

Briggs beats me to it. I wish to nominate '79 for at least top three. Hisle, Cooper, Lezcano and Yount's breakthrough season. The most wins by a team until 2011.

 

As mentioned above, the '78-'83 teams pretty much had set rosters the entire season. None of this 40-man manipulation stuff by Harry Dalton. Plus, this year's team struggled to score at times.

 

Yount's breakthrough was 1980... that was when the extra-base power suddenly emerged.

 

Hisle was hurt, though...

 

I sometimes wonder - suppose the Brewers, instead of signing Hisle, had instead signed Dave Kingman - and suppose they'd brought back former Seattle Pilot Mike Marshall to anchor the pen?

[Pugger]

Yea I'd say 2011 was better than this on paper and even going into the postseason. Mostly due to the Greinke/Gallardo top of rotation along with a loaded offensive lineup. It's not like they backed in like in 2008 either.

 

Probably a good thread to ask this to some of the long timers alive to remember 82. Uecker said last night the Brewers had the better team in 82 than STL but had some guys hurt or unable to go in the WS. I don't recall what he was referring to, any care to share who was hurt for that Series or what he was referring to?

 

Rollie Fingers was hurt and wasn't able to pitch in the World series. Had he been able to pitch in those high leverage situations, I still believe to this day we would have won the series. Still hurts to this day.

 

If I remember correctly, he was also unavailable for the ALCS...

 

Yes, had Rollie played we probably win that championship.

[rickh150]

Not the best- top 5 (Add an ace or two in the offseason, look out)

This is the deepest team.

This team has the best pen.

[coolhandluke121]

I don't see one Hall of Famer on this team yet. Braun has a legitimate shot,

 

No, he doesn't. I still don't see how "# of hall-of-famers" is such a big deal though.

 

In '98, the Mariners had Griffey Jr., A-Rod, and Randy Johnson in their primes and won 76 games. In 2001 all 3 of them were gone, and they set the all-time record with 116 games.

 

As noted before, the Brewers still had 3 of the 4 hall-of-famers from 1982 (not counting Molitor, who was hurt all year) and a lot of other members of the '82 team and won 67 games.

 

ETA: Not saying I'd put 2018 ahead of '82; just saying HOFers is a terrible measuring stick. I'd put '82 first but right now I have 2018 ahead of 2011, a fatally flawed paper tiger that played an easy schedule, and 1992, a good team that played a tough schedule but still felt like a total fluke - with Listach and Eldred being poster boys for the flash-in-the-pan nature of that squad.

[brewers4eric]

The hitting ability of the 1979 team was exemplified by the fact that they were only shutout once during the season, and it was on the last game of the schedule with most of the bench inserted into the lineup. They put up 95 wins but were out of the race in August.

 

I can remember following the 1978 team and shuddering anytime Andy Replogle was on the bump. I was always amazed when he won as he was a typical minor league journeyman that rarely struck anyone out.

 

I was hooked on the Brewers after my first trip to County Stadium forty years ago. I can still remember the sights and sounds from the parking lot. Molitor was the rookie at the top of the lineup. Yount was the light hitting shortstop at the bottom. Mike Caldwell was on the mound for the Brewers and Johnny Wockenfuss was catching for the Tigers.

[cesser000]

The hitting ability of the 1979 team was exemplified by the fact that they were only shutout once during the season

The '82 team was also shut out only once as well.