2018-09-24: Brewers (Bullpen) at Cardinals (Flaherty) 7:15 PM CDT [Brewers win, 6-4 -- Lots of drama & a clutch W!]

[82brewcrew82]

Because Carpenter is lefty to start the game. I figured since this was announced they'd start with Jennings or Cedeno. And I assumed Jennings because Cedeno is better and more capable of going a full inning later on. Wouldn't shock me if Jennings faced one batter.

 

I don't if whoever posted that was speculating or if that's for sure or not. But that's what i've been thinking the whole time.

So why announce it now? The Cards will just Move Carpenter out of the lead off spot. This seems senseless to me unless there is an underlying issue that isn't public.

[wibadgers23]

Was Flaherty a highly regarded prospect coming up or did he come out of nowhere like a lot of Cardinals seem to do?

[82brewcrew82]

Was Flaherty a highly regarded prospect coming up or did he come out of nowhere like a lot of Cardinals seem to do?

No, he had some prospect cred.. Maybe not this much but he was pretty well regarded.

[tmwiese55]

Because Carpenter is lefty to start the game. I figured since this was announced they'd start with Jennings or Cedeno. And I assumed Jennings because Cedeno is better and more capable of going a full inning later on. Wouldn't shock me if Jennings faced one batter.

 

I don't if whoever posted that was speculating or if that's for sure or not. But that's what i've been thinking the whole time.

So why announce it now? The Cards will just Move Carpenter out of the lead off spot. This seems senseless to me unless there is an underlying issue that isn't public.

 

Then they can scratch it if that's the case. I don't know why it was announced, there is probably some standard time where teams are supposed to announce planned starters but its not like it locks them in. Most likely pushed by the gambling industry. Now, if Carpenter gets moved to 4th and they still start Jennings, then yea complain away.

 

It's kind of weird, who has to show their hand first. Like do they hand the lineup card to the ump at the same time. otherwise it's a back and forth, if they move Carpenter we take Jennings out as starter and back and forth. So Cards manager might realize that and just leave Carpenter and play his normal way

[TURBO]

Couple thoughts on this bullpen game:

 

-This almost certainly wasn't Counsell's decision. This is certainly coming from the front office and Counsell will do his best to manage the game.

 

Why do you think this is the case. Do you know someone?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Couple thoughts on this bullpen game:

 

-This almost certainly wasn't Counsell's decision. This is certainly coming from the front office and Counsell will do his best to manage the game.

 

How did you come to this conclusion? I am trying to wrap my head around how/why the front office would be making game strategy decisions. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Couple thoughts on this bullpen game:

 

-This almost certainly wasn't Counsell's decision. This is certainly coming from the front office and Counsell will do his best to manage the game.

 

Why do you think this is the case. Do you know someone?

 

LOL jinx again!

 

I guess we both read that and did a double-take at the same time.

[TURBO]

Mixed feelings. I like taking risks at this time of year, can't be afraid to make changes. At the same time, this seems a bit like trying to be too cute. Thing is, if Flaherty dominates us again it doesn't really matter. Better figure him out, because that's who they'll throw at us in the WC and home/away won't matter if he twirls a shut-out.

Right, besides Jesus hitting the one home run against Flaherty in the season finale last year, the Brewers have not been able to do much of anything against him.

 

I'm going to start Flaherty tonight in a fantasy league. That oughta jinx him.

[TURBO]

Mixed feelings. I like taking risks at this time of year, can't be afraid to make changes. At the same time, this seems a bit like trying to be too cute. Thing is, if Flaherty dominates us again it doesn't really matter. Better figure him out, because that's who they'll throw at us in the WC and home/away won't matter if he twirls a shut-out.

Right, besides Jesus hitting the one home run against Flaherty in the season finale last year, the Brewers have not been able to do much of anything against him.

 

I'm going to start Flaherty tonight in a fantasy league. That oughta jinx him.

 

EDIT: Actually, I am 500 points in 1st place in that league, most everything I have done has worked out, maybe I should bench him instead.

[rcc]

Why not a short leash on Chase. I don' t like this strategy but hope for the best.

[long ball]

Couple thoughts on this bullpen game:

 

-This almost certainly wasn't Counsell's decision. This is certainly coming from the front office and Counsell will do his best to manage the game.

 

Why do you think this is the case. Do you know someone?

 

LOL jinx again!

 

I guess we both read that and did a double-take at the same time.

 

I don't know anyone in the Brewers organization, but I don't think Counsell comes up with game strategy. The front office and the coaching staff work together to develop the game strategy and it's the coaching staff's job to execute the front office's vision.

 

Do you think Cash came up with the opener strategy in TB? That definitely came down from the front office and Cash is responsible for executing the strategy.

[JosephC]

Anderson hasn't been that bad this month. 4 starts, 3.06 ERA, 1.36 WHIP. The biggest criticism of him has been the home runs, but in those 4 starts the HR/9 is only 1.02 which is a reasonable number.

 

To me the key thing is that, in those 4 starts, he's only pitched 17 2/3 innings and has only averaged 73 pitches per start. To me that's the biggest thing here, it sure seems like Counsell has lost confidence in him and no longer trusts him. August was a bad month for Anderson and he got himself on the short hook despite pitching better recently.

[82brewcrew82]

I don't know anyone in the Brewers organization, but I don't think Counsell comes up with game strategy. The front office and the coaching staff work together to develop the game strategy and it's the coaching staff's job to execute the front office's vision.

 

Do you think Cash came up with the opener strategy in TB? That definitely came down from the front office and Cash is responsible for executing the strategy.

Yeah, I think he did. I don't think any part of that line of thought is accurate. If they didn't like what CC was doing they would just fire him and put someone in place who thinks like they do. Generally speaking, the front office has very little to do with game to game strategy.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The front office acquires players. If you think anyone but Counsell is picking pitchers, with input from the other coaches...you're wrong.

[NievesNoNO]

Mixed feelings. I like taking risks at this time of year, can't be afraid to make changes. At the same time, this seems a bit like trying to be too cute. Thing is, if Flaherty dominates us again it doesn't really matter. Better figure him out, because that's who they'll throw at us in the WC and home/away won't matter if he twirls a shut-out.

 

I'm going to go with the too cute opinion on this. I don't like it; obviously I do hope it works. Either way they're going to need to put some runs on the board. I'd hate to burn through bullpen arms ( I know there's a few extra down there), and still lose the game and then have the bullpen be at a deficit the rest of the week.

 

If the bullpen starts the game poorly, then what are your options? I'd at least let him start and see how it goes. Try to get one time through the lineup at least. If he's on you can let him go and finish out as expected with the bull-pen. If he's off, you can remedy the situation early and start bringing in guys. I just don't see how this ends well in any circumstance with Jennings starting. Why is this one game being emphasized over the remaining six? My biggest issue I guess is that the more often you switch pitchers, the more likely it becomes you run into a guy that just doesn't have it that day.

 

If Jennings is indeed the starter then I'd guess my bullpen lineup would be something like:

 

Jennings

Guerra

Burnes

Hader

Knebel

Jeffress

[3and2Fastball]

I'll admit I will find it hilarious if Jennings starts the game, they already have someone in the bullpen, and he pitches to one batter.

.

 

Personally, I would absolutely love that!!!! As in jumping up & down like a kid on Christmas morning love it! And I hope Chris Carpenter is watching and mutters "what about the children?" And I hope Brian Kenny interviews Tony LaRussa tomorrow and Tony calls it a "travesty to the traditions and history of our national pastime."

 

Love it!!!

[topper09er]

Anderson hasn't been that bad this month. 4 starts, 3.06 ERA, 1.36 WHIP. The biggest criticism of him has been the home runs, but in those 4 starts the HR/9 is only 1.02 which is a reasonable number.

 

To me the key thing is that, in those 4 starts, he's only pitched 17 2/3 innings and has only averaged 73 pitches per start. To me that's the biggest thing here, it sure seems like Counsell has lost confidence in him and no longer trusts him. August was a bad month for Anderson and he got himself on the short hook despite pitching better recently.

 

You could look at it the other way and conclude Anderson has been better this month because he has been a short leash. If you only face the order 1-2 times your stats will improve, like how the average RP ERA is lower than the average SP.

[JosephC]

The overall numbers don't really support using Jennings as an opener IMO. Carpenter doesn't have wildly difference splits that "play up" a lefty/lefty matchup. So far this year Carpenter has been a .270/.382/.552/.934 hitter against righties, a .240/.363/.487/.850 hitter against lefties. Better against righties, but not to the extent where it makes sense to play lefty-lefty matching up the first inning of a ballgame. Also, Carpenter has hit the skids recently. .143/.280/.286/.566 in the last seven days and .178/.315/.247/.562 so far in September. Carpenter may be an MVP candidate, but if I was picking one guy in this lineup that I wouldn't want to beat me in tonight's game, it wouldn't be Carpenter.

 

I can only assume that Jennings has fared well against Carpenter in the past. Would like to know how big that sample size is?

[brewerfan82]

I can only assume that Jennings has fared well against Carpenter in the past. Would like to know how big that sample size is?

Just looked it up... "fared well" may not work well in this case... lol

 

[long ball]

I don't know anyone in the Brewers organization, but I don't think Counsell comes up with game strategy. The front office and the coaching staff work together to develop the game strategy and it's the coaching staff's job to execute the front office's vision.

 

Do you think Cash came up with the opener strategy in TB? That definitely came down from the front office and Cash is responsible for executing the strategy.

Yeah, I think he did. I don't think any part of that line of thought is accurate. If they didn't like what CC was doing they would just fire him and put someone in place who thinks like they do. Generally speaking, the front office has very little to do with game to game strategy.

 

I probably should have phrased my original speculation differently. What I was getting at is that the idea of not starting Anderson tonight and rather going with a bullpen game likely originated with the front office/analytics staff and Counsell was on board.

 

Over the past 10-20 years the role of a manager has evolved. With the advancement of analytics and scouting information the manager/front office have more info than ever before. When it comes to writing out the daily line up card and which relievers come into the game that's probably still completely in Counsell's control. Everything else is likely a collaborative effort.

 

For example, Anothopolous was just on MLB network radio this afternoon and was asked who makes the decision for the playoff rotation and whether guys will go on short rest. He said that it's a group effort between the front office and coaching staff to make these decisions. He did say that if the manager is strongly against something they'll usually defer to the manager.

 

My point is that the front office staff has their hands in a lot of these day to day type decisions. Such as short leashes for the starting pitchers, structured rest for Hader and Braun, starting rotation, etc.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I can only assume that Jennings has fared well against Carpenter in the past. Would like to know how big that sample size is?

Just looked it up... "fared well" may not work well in this case... lol

 

 

"I got a hunch he's due."

- Lou Brown, Indians Manager

[Dead Simmons]

The overall numbers don't really support using Jennings as an opener IMO. Carpenter doesn't have wildly difference splits that "play up" a lefty/lefty matchup. So far this year Carpenter has been a .270/.382/.552/.934 hitter against righties, a .240/.363/.487/.850 hitter against lefties. Better against righties, but not to the extent where it makes sense to play lefty-lefty matching up the first inning of a ballgame. Also, Carpenter has hit the skids recently. .143/.280/.286/.566 in the last seven days and .178/.315/.247/.562 so far in September. Carpenter may be an MVP candidate, but if I was picking one guy in this lineup that I wouldn't want to beat me in tonight's game, it wouldn't be Carpenter.

 

You're right. Carp has been totally useless since late August. He's been getting struck out looking so much it makes you want to puke. DeJong, Molina and Ozuna have been doing most of the heavy lifting of late.

 

This series is gonna be tough to watch, but I have a good supply of Pepto handy.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I don't know anyone in the Brewers organization, but I don't think Counsell comes up with game strategy. The front office and the coaching staff work together to develop the game strategy and it's the coaching staff's job to execute the front office's vision.

 

Do you think Cash came up with the opener strategy in TB? That definitely came down from the front office and Cash is responsible for executing the strategy.

Yeah, I think he did. I don't think any part of that line of thought is accurate. If they didn't like what CC was doing they would just fire him and put someone in place who thinks like they do. Generally speaking, the front office has very little to do with game to game strategy.

 

I probably should have phrased my original speculation differently. What I was getting at is that the idea of not starting Anderson tonight and rather going with a bullpen game likely originated with the front office/analytics staff and Counsell was on board.

 

Over the past 10-20 years the role of a manager has evolved. With the advancement of analytics and scouting information the manager/front office have more info than ever before. When it comes to writing out the daily line up card and which relievers come into the game that's probably still completely in Counsell's control. Everything else is likely a collaborative effort.

 

For example, Anothopolous was just on MLB network radio this afternoon and was asked who makes the decision for the playoff rotation and whether guys will go on short rest. He said that it's a group effort between the front office and coaching staff to make these decisions. He did say that if the manager is strongly against something they'll usually defer to the manager.

 

My point is that the front office staff has their hands in a lot of these day to day type decisions. Such as short leashes for the starting pitchers, structured rest for Hader and Braun, starting rotation, etc.

 

I get the feeling that Counsell is much more into analytics that you think. Also, I think the confusing part is that you keep using the term "front office". I guess in my mind, front office personnel focus on player acquisition exclusively. I think what you are describing would fall under Baseball Operations.

[pacopete4]

Counsell may be into analytics but it probably stems from Stearns. So whatever you want to call it, front office or baseball operations... it probably wasn't Counsell.

[long ball]

I get the feeling that Counsell is much more into analytics that you think. Also, I think the confusing part is that you keep using the term "front office". I guess in my mind, front office personnel focus on player acquisition exclusively. I think what you are describing would fall under Baseball Operations.

 

I think Counsell is certainly a believer in an analytical approach to the game. If he wasn't he wouldn't still be the manager.

 

That's fair- the front office encompasses much more than just baseball operations such as ticket sales, spring training, facilities, finance, legal, marketing, etc. I generally meant Stearns/Arnold and their staffs.