NL MVP Race

[lcbj68c]

Ref Trout, it's not a "most outstanding player" award, it's a most valuable player award. So long as that remains, my vote would require somebody valuable enough to not have their team finish 4th in their division. Give him a gold glove and silver slugger, save the MVP for somebody playing in October.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Ref Trout, it's not a "most outstanding player" award, it's a most valuable player award. So long as that remains, my vote would require somebody valuable enough to not have their team finish 4th in their division. Give him a gold glove and silver slugger, save the MVP for somebody playing in October.

 

 

I always find this argument interesting. Not necessarily wrong, but definitely interesting. There's only so much a player can do in baseball. You only bat one out of every 9 times in the order, you can only field balls that are hit into your area. If you're the CF, you can't field balls on the infield, or hit down either line, etc, etc. If you hit leadoff, you can't bat in the 2nd inning if your spot doesn't come up again, there are simply many many many events and outcomes in a game that a baseball player absolutely has zero impact on.

 

By this reasoning (which many people use), a player on the Marlins, Orioles, Tigers, Royals, etc, etc, etc, etc, or basically ANY team not playing in the playoffs is more or less exempt from winning the MVP, which I disagree with. If a team won 75 games, wasn't that player valuable in assisting towards those 75 wins? Why is the definition of "most valuable" only defining valuable in the terms of teams that are playing in playoff scenarios?

 

Not being snarky, just asking a serious question, because a LOT of people use that benchmark for what constitutes an MVP.

[brewerfan82]

I wish they would just go ahead and actually define the MVP award. The debates about something that everyone defines differently drives me crazy because no one's actually discussing the same topic, lol.

 

So until it's defined, I can't argue against someone that thinks it should only go towards someone on a playoff team, but I don't really understand saying a player isn't "valuable enough to not have their team finish 4th in their division," when that player is leading the MLB in WAR. Taking Trout off the Angels and replacing him with any other player in the MLB wouldn't improve that team, therefore no player is "valuable enough to not have their team finish 4th in their division" and I guess no player in baseball should be MVP?

[Ennder]

Ref Trout, it's not a "most outstanding player" award, it's a most valuable player award. So long as that remains, my vote would require somebody valuable enough to not have their team finish 4th in their division. Give him a gold glove and silver slugger, save the MVP for somebody playing in October.

 

 

So using this logic if a team wins 120 games and wins their division by 50 games does it also disqualify all of their players from being MVP. I mean that team was winning their division regardless of any single player on the team. Same completely flawed logic at play in this case?

[Ennder]

I wish they would just go ahead and actually define the MVP award. The debates about something that everyone defines differently drives me crazy because no one's actually discussing the same topic, lol.

 

So until it's defined, I can't argue against someone that thinks it should only go towards someone on a playoff team, but I don't really understand saying a player isn't "valuable enough to not have their team finish 4th in their division," when that player is leading the MLB in WAR. Taking Trout off the Angels and replacing him with any other player in the MLB wouldn't improve that team, therefore no player is "valuable enough to not have their team finish 4th in their division" and I guess no player in baseball should be MVP?

 

I don't feel it really needs a definition. The only people really nitpicking the definition just don't want to give the award to a player on a losing team even though they know he is more valuable than other players. It is a flawed justification based on nothing. No different than passing on DeGrom this year because his win total is too low. Same sort of logic that has voters not voting Ripken in on the first ballot because someone else they loved didn't get 100% of the vote on first ballot.

 

Wins are a team stat, they should have nothing at all to do with an individual award. The number of wins a player or team has doesn't have anything to do with MVP or CY.

[liveforoctober]

Great CF's are in general much more difficult to find than great RF's. Defensively a great CF is significantly more valuable than a great RF

 

That still just change the fact that Betts' dWar this season is better than Trout's. I think Trout might be the better defender at a more premiere position. There is good argument thought that Mookie Betts was a more valuable defensive outfielder in 2018 than Mike Trout and in considering who is the MVP this year ... that matters.

[fondybrewfan]

Based on just overall stats I think Yelich might be pulling away in the MVP race. He now has a comfortable lead in ave, 5th in OBP, 1st is SLG, 1st in OPS, 2nd in runs, 4th in hits, etc.

 

If Baez is considered the competition I think Yelich has separated himself. Yelich is leading him in everything but HR (2 less) and RBI (14 less). Yelich has over a 70 point advantage in OPS right now.

[topper09er]

For those in the "MVP = best player" camp, do you think the World Series MVP could come from the losing team?

[3and2Fastball]

Based on just overall stats I think Yelich might be pulling away in the MVP race. He now has a comfortable lead in ave, 5th in OBP, 1st is SLG, 1st in OPS, 2nd in runs, 4th in hits, etc.

 

If Baez is considered the competition I think Yelich has separated himself. Yelich is leading him in everything but HR (2 less) and RBI (14 less). Yelich has over a 70 point advantage in OPS right now.

 

Baez is way ahead in terms of defensive value, arguably light years ahead. To have a plus plus glove at SS, 2B, & 3B is incredibly valuable. And supposedly Baez is ahead if the Cubs win the division and the Brewers are "just" a wildcard team. But I'm not buying that "playing on a great team" thing in the slightest.

 

At any rate, my vote is for Yelich. Yelich has, what (?), 60 points on him in OBP?

[sveumrules]

With a week to go Yelich has overtaken Baez on both the FanGraphs & Baseball Reference WAR leaderboards.

 

FG is at 6.6 to 5.4, so over a full win. Yelich has him by about 16 runs on the offensive side & UZR sees their fielding as about even with Baez really only having the edge in positional adjustment, +3.4 vs -5.4.

 

BR has it a little closer at 6.4 to 6.1. They've got Yelich 23 runs ahead on offense, though DRS (+9) likes Baez a little more than UZR (-0.1) & BRef is even more extreme on their positional adjustments, -6 vs +6.

 

Typically if its close the edge goes to the better hitter, but Baez having more exposure on the Cubs & them likely winning the division probably closes the gap some. But yeah, that .328 OBP. Gotta think that hurts more in 2018 than it would have in past votes.

[FVBrewerFan]

Interesting, Baez is actually tied with Rendon in fWAR, Cain still the leader in bWAR among position players, with a few pitchers ahead of him.

[fondybrewfan]

Unless you are breaking a virtually tie I don't know that MVP voters really care that Baez is more valuable than Yelich defensively; Yelich is clearly better on the offensive side of things at this point and Yelich certainly isn't known as a bad defender.

[dlk9s]

Now there’s a most valuable and best player argument but sports writers seem to have odd criteria.

 

Best player is naturally the most valuable.

 

The parsing of the name of the award is perhaps the dumbest part of every baseball season. I really wish people would understand that "Most Valuable Player" is just a fancy way of saying "The Best Player this Season."

[TexasCheesehead]

I'm not bothering to read this thread too in depth, but IMO if you think Baez deserves the MVP over Yelich (bias completely aside), you don't know a dang thing about baseball. It's not close.

[owbc]

Unless you are breaking a virtually tie I don't know that MVP voters really care that Baez is more valuable than Yelich defensively; Yelich is clearly better on the offensive side of things at this point and Yelich certainly isn't known as a bad defender.

 

Completely agree. If the season ended today, Yelich has this thing won. I don't even think it would be that close. He's doing all the things that voters like:

 

League leader in traditional offensive stats--check [not just ahead of Baez, league leader is key]

League leader in advanced offensive stats--check

Hot streak during pennant race--check

On playoff team--check [even better that the team exceeded preseason expectations]

Big splashy moments that grab headlines--check and check

 

Baez is the one needing nontraditional things that are hard to quantify like defense, flexibility, and energy. I don't see the big market or division vs. wildcard thing mattering much.

[TexasCheesehead]

I have a major issue with an MVP candidate striking out over 150 times, but I guess I'm old school.

[tmwiese55]

This will be laughable if they give this to Baez because of defense type justification after years of giving to Cabrera over Trout.

[topper09er]

Now there’s a most valuable and best player argument but sports writers seem to have odd criteria.

 

Best player is naturally the most valuable.

 

The parsing of the name of the award is perhaps the dumbest part of every baseball season. I really wish people would understand that "Most Valuable Player" is just a fancy way of saying "The Best Player this Season."

 

That's just like, um, your opinion, man. History has clearly shown this is not the case. Big contributors from the pennant winning teams have many more MVP wins than the "best player", whether or not it should be the case of course is the point of this debate, but it is a debate and it is not settled. Does seem to be evolving more and more to "best player this season" but that is a relatively novel interpretation.

 

So would you have given the '82 WS MVP to Robin Yount instead of one of the Cardinals?

[dlk9s]

I'm not saying that's not the way it's been, I'm saying it's stupid that that's the way it's been. "MVP" is a fancy way of saying "best player" and it's dumb that people have tried to interpret as "most valuable" as somehow meaning something different than "most outstanding" or "best." OF COURSE the MVP should go to someone on a losing/non-playoff team if that player was the best in the league that year.

[topper09er]

"MVP" is a fancy way of saying "best player"

 

Again, this is your opinion. It is not a given fact. Also, the history of the award goes against this conclusion.

[KeithStone53151]

Yelich is leading the NL in OPS...by 30 points. Baez is about 70 points behind him. Yelich also has higher WAR on both sites I've looked at that calculate WAR. Baez definitely should get some credit for being such a good defender, which probably makes it close. I just don't think the defense does enough for Baez to surpass Yelich. That's also my personal opinion. The Baez vs Yelich debate isn't some wildly ridiculous argument that is clear cut in either direction. The OPS leader shouldn't automatically win the MVP. I'll be curious to see how this plays out.

 

I think if Yelich were to hit 3 HR over the next week and we found a way to tie or surpass the Cubs for the division...that absolutely launches him to clear cut favorite for MVP. I also think those 2 have established themselves ahead of the rest of the contenders...it has to be one of the two.

[tmwiese55]

If there was any historical precedence of factoring D this much into the conversation I'd understand it more, but it just reeks of trying to find a way/excuse to justify giving it to a guy just because you want to already (big market, flashy, whatever reason). It really shouldn't be that close of a call. And again, it's not like yelich is playing DH. He's playing a good OF defense. Baez is more valuable on D because he can play middle infield, no doubt about that but he's not a gold glove elite level defender, especially at SS.

[long ball]

I think Yelich has been better than Baez this year. Yelich currently leads Baez in fWAR, rWAR, and WARP. I don't think any iteration of WAR should be the only criteria, but it's a place to start. Undeniably, Yelich has been a significantly better hitter than Baez in 2018.

 

Where Baez has the advantage over Yelich is that he's "fun to watch". Baez is a max effort swinger, aggressive base runner, and flashy defender. Baez being able to play above average defensively at 3b, 2b, and SS definitely has value, but is not in and of itself production. Positional flexibility enables production. Baez being able to step in for an injured Bryant at 3b and ineffective/inactive Russell at SS is going to be a huge part of Baez's MVP narrative. I do think Yelich bouncing back and forth between LF and RF on a nightly basis + filling in for Cain in CF is underrated in the narrative of the season even if it isn't quite as impressive as Baez's defensive versatility.

 

The part of the Baez narrative that I hate is that he "carried" the Cubs offense at stretched this year. You can make the exact same argument in favor of all of the MVP candidates. Additionally, the Cubs have been a slightly better offense over the course of the year. Cubs have a 100 wRC+ with 4.71 RS/G and Brewers are at 98 wRC+ with 4.54 RS/G.

 

It could change over the next week, but I think Baez is probably the slight front runner.

[tdcarney22]

Just look at it this way......at the All-Star Break BOTH Yelich/Baez were both batting .292...........now here we are with a week left, one of them is ONLY batting .293. The other, batting .322. One is exactly the same as first half, one has gone WAY above and beyond in the 2nd half. Seems clear cut to me!

[TURBO]

Yelich just named NL player of the week!

 

Perfect timing to get an award like this when the MVP is on the line. Hopefully he backs it up with another great week and this discussion can be put to bed!