Cole Hamels denies rivalry

[CrewFanBrewMan69]

As someone said earlier, this is only a rivalry on the Brewers side. The Cubs rival is the Cardinals and probably always will be.

Yeah that’s how I view it. The Cubs fans I know don’t view the Brewers as a rival it only seems to be Brewer fans and Brewer media. The Mets and Dodgers are bigger “rivals” to the Cubs than us too I feel like. There’s a lot more history there.

[HarveysWBs]

Now as someone who lives nowhere near either Illinois or Wisconsin this is mainly based on their online presence, so perhaps it isn't reflective of the fanbase at large. Or is it? I'd be curious to know.

 

As someone who has had Brewer (and Packer) fandom in my blood from birth, but has lived 30 of my 31 years in Illinois, I can speak to this phenomenon. The attitude you sense is not just an online thing, it is very real among flesh and blood interactions, too. I live in a part of the state that isn't particularly close to Wisconsin, and is in fact about half way between Chicago and St. Louis, so I have seen this from Cardinals fans, too. The Cardinals fans ("Greatest Fans in the World, and Keepers of the One True Right Way to Play Baseball") are obnoxious for their self-righteousness, yes, but they've earned it. They have the pelts on the wall, and so while their thumping of the unwritten book of baseball rules and their general snobbishness still rankles (and boy, 2011 absolutely killed me--my wife is a Cardinals fan!) I can at least begrudgingly respect where it is coming from.

 

Cubs fans are a different breed entirely. I know a few decent ones who will hold a respectful conversation about baseball and not allow themselves to be too blinded by their allegiance as to be insufferable. But I only met them well into my adult years. The vast majority of the Cubs fans I see in their native habitat have been boorish, ill-informed, and take pleasure to go out of their way to tell me that my beloved franchise pales in comparison to theirs and that I am a fool for following them. This was true even in the 90's when the Cubs had some truly pathetic teams, and apart from a few years of good play, were often just as pathetic as the Crew. I have always been surprised by this, since if the Brewers win a World Series title soon, it would make them about as successful as the Cubs have been since baseball returned to Milwaukee, and with a better stadium, to boot. I was surprised, that is, until I realized it boils down to tribalism and a bullying mentality. Cubs fans outnumber most of their rivals, particularly in the heart of the midwest, and so they gang up on and belittle fans of smaller franchises, and this gives them an immense pleasure, often irrespective of actual results on the field.

 

As others have mentioned, for some, this is a class issue, since Cubs fans (particularly in Chicago proper) are far more affluent on average than your typical Brewers (or even Cardinals) fan. As this pertains to Miller Park attendance, that isn't the only issue, but I suspect it is a big part. It must be awfully tempting for many Brewers fans to flip tickets to Cubs fans who are willing to pay a premium to see their team in a more comfortable environment than the "friendly confines." Heck, I can even sympathize with those who see these brutish louts invade Miller and decide they'll spend their hard-earned money on a different matchup, especially if they are bringing kids to the park and don't want to expose them to the generally appalling behavior of many of the Cubs fans. But I can only speak for myself when I say that when I watch the Crew on TV (I get FS Wisconsin and try to make 2 or 3 games a year in person) and I see the Cubs fans in attendance, I see the same bullying attitude I saw growing up in this state. If I am ever fortunate enough to live closer to Milwaukee, I will make it a point to attend as many Miller Park Cubs games as I can (although I'll probably leave the kids at home), and gladly cheer as loudly as I can.

 

At the end of the day, the Crew is about family to me; always has been, and always will be. The only real Brewers fans I've ever known personally have been my late grandfather, my father, and my uncles. Of that group, the only one I have close enough to regularly converse (read: commiserate) with is my dad. Although I have been incredibly happy to find brewerfan.net and all you fellow-sufferers as a makeshift community, I've always been acutely aware of the fact that I don't really have a "tribe" of my own. I hope my dad and I get to see the day when the Crew gets to celebrate on the field as champions of baseball. No words of vindication need be said, even after a lifetime in the lion's den; we can just look at each other in that moment and know. And we could go back out into the world and be at peace, not to be as the Cubs and Cardinals fans have been, but simply to smile and to know the feeling was sweeter than they could ever imagine. It would be a great feeling...

 

...but beating the Cubs and/or Cards on the way to that moment would be pretty sweet, too...

[danzig6767]

 

Another HUGE problem is the fact we as a fanbase let it get this bad. Now that they buy all our tickets most people don’t even want to go because it is just an awful experience at that point.

I know that i'll be in the extreme minority in viewing things this way, but i love attending these Brewers/Cubs games at Miller Park. They are among my favorite to attend, so long as both teams are good and thus the game is important.

 

There is a juice in the park for these games that just aren't in many others because there is always noise. You also have fans of both sides at times trying to make noise over the others in various chants. It's fun to me.

 

These games kinda seem like those soccer matches overseas where the crowds are split about 50/50 and such it's always loud.

 

I get that many Brewers fans are annoyed to be in our home park and it is so loud when the Cubs do something good, but that doesn't faze me. I'll take the high level of energy in the park for games like these. The only time i've disliked being at Miller Park for Brewers/Cubs game is when the Brewers lost convincingly and then only Cubs fans were able to get loud. Then it's a bummer.

[benji]

The atmosphere at the game was great today. What annoys me about Cub's fans is that they think every routine fly ball is a home run. As far as Hamels it seems he has something against Milwaukee. He had a no trade clause here and I thought he had some negative comments in the past but I cant remember them.

[reillymcshane]

I guess I'm not going to get too worked up about all the Cub fans at Miller Park. It happens. There are a ton of Cub fans in southern Wisconsin. The number of Cub fans compared to Brewer fans is massive. It makes sense they take advantage of the chance to see a good team (and they've got a good team) when they come to Milwaukee.

 

I'm sure the people in Minnesota get annoyed at the Badger fans who fill up their stadium whenever we play football there. I remember the alumni association had a block party with thousands of people - in downtown St. Paul. That's gotta sting for the Gopher fans - but it happens.

 

Is it annoying to have all the Cub fans at Miller Park? Absolutely. But it's not the responsibility of Brewer fans to specifically buy tickets to these games, just so we can have more fans there than the Cubs. I've never considered buying tickets to a game against the Cubs so as to pack the stadium with more Crew fans. I base things on my schedule, my wife's schedule, the schedules of people who might be going with us, etc., etc.

[datrain711]

Just to add a data point to all this, looking at highest attended games at Miller Park this season, the Cubs only have 1 game in the top 10, 2 in the top 15 and 3 in the top 20. They aren't driving sales at all.

 

Only way they really drive it is funding our season ticketholders' budgets to attend other games by paying through the nose for secondary market cub/brewer game tickets.

 

 

Yeah-I know 3 different groups that fund their entire season's ticket plan by selling their Cubs/Cardinals games.

[datrain711]

Is it annoying to have all the Cub fans at Miller Park? Absolutely. But it's not the responsibility of Brewer fans to specifically buy tickets to these games, just so we can have more fans there than the Cubs. I've never considered buying tickets to a game against the Cubs so as to pack the stadium with more Crew fans. I base things on my schedule, my wife's schedule, the schedules of people who might be going with us, etc., etc.

 

I pretty much agree with you in how I end up getting to games.

 

From knowing a couple of the ticket guys, i guess you could say an "issue" is Brewers season ticket holders constantly calling their reps to get more Cubs games added to their package so they can resell them.

[Ennder]

 

Is it annoying to have all the Cub fans at Miller Park? Absolutely. But it's not the responsibility of Brewer fans to specifically buy tickets to these games, just so we can have more fans there than the Cubs. I've never considered buying tickets to a game against the Cubs so as to pack the stadium with more Crew fans. I base things on my schedule, my wife's schedule, the schedules of people who might be going with us, etc., etc.

 

I don't mean to single you out here but this is patently a false statement and this is the issue with what Hamels said in a nutshell. Brewer fans buy just as many tickets to these games as they do to any other game of the season. Cubs games are not a bigger draw than any other game on the schedule as I showed with my data above This is completely a case of Brewer fans selling their season tickets for 3+ times face value to Cubs fans. The Cubs fans are not in any way shape or form driving the attendance of these games, they are directly taking the place of Brewer fans who sold them their tickets. I know multiple families that buy season passes and just sell the Cubs game and they end up even overall. All it takes is selling 3 or 4 games to pay for a full season.

 

The only real negative impact to Brewers ticket sales for these games is how obnoxious Cubs fans are and how you don't want your family around them. The biggest draw for home Brewer games are the Cardinals. They actually have a nice stadium and are farther away so they don't travel quite as well to our stadium but they also are a pretty nice and knowledgeable fanbase so people don't avoid games against them. That is why the majority of our highest in division attendance games are against the Cardinals.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Whether he's right or wrong, I don't give a rip what Cole Hamels says or thinks. To get worked up over his comments is silly. Go to the games, sell your tickets, don't go to the games.... everything is each individual's choice, and none of those choices in inherently wrong.

[LouisEly]

I don't think the Brewers have ever claimed their fanbase was bigger than the Cubs. I also think with the way the Cubs were whining today this game meant something to them

Exactly. If it isn't a rivalry, why are you whining about balls and strikes when you're winning.

 

And the invading Miller Park thing is an economics issue as much as it is a "selling out" issue. There is just a lot more disposable income in the greater Chicago area because there are far, far more corporations and high-paying jobs here than in Milwaukee. A ticket with a season-ticketholder cost of $60 to a Wisconsinite who has an annual household income of $100K/year is a bigger % of their disposable income than a Chicagoan who pays $120 for that ticket but has an annual household income of $250K/year (or more). It's just not as big of a deal economically to these fans - especially north suburban Chicago where the big money is - than to the average Wisconsinite.

[KeithStone53151]

I appreciated the post by harvey's WB, great post. Didn't want to quote as it was long.

 

Hamels comments are white noise. He comes off ignorant. He said something rude and is becoming a hero on cub fan board, naturally, considering they are generally terrible human beings. I personally sold my tickets to the game today, primarily because I simply don't have any interest in being around that class of human. I feel bad for any parent who may not know better and brings their kids to experience such a thing. The worst part is, the pride they show in their behavior...which is basically the degradation of society. No thanks, I'll sell my seats and get more joy out of watching at home or the local bar.

[TooLiveBrew]

Rivalry, no rivalry, whatever. W today for the Crew in game #139, & that's that. Time to turn the page for tomorrow's game.

[lcbj68c]

 

At the end of the day, the Crew is about family to me; always has been, and always will be. The only real Brewers fans I've ever known personally have been my late grandfather, my father, and my uncles. Of that group, the only one I have close enough to regularly converse (read: commiserate) with is my dad. Although I have been incredibly happy to find brewerfan.net and all you fellow-sufferers as a makeshift community, I've always been acutely aware of the fact that I don't really have a "tribe" of my own. I hope my dad and I get to see the day when the Crew gets to celebrate on the field as champions of baseball. No words of vindication need be said, even after a lifetime in the lion's den; we can just look at each other in that moment and know. And we could go back out into the world and be at peace, not to be as the Cubs and Cardinals fans have been, but simply to smile and to know the feeling was sweeter than they could ever imagine. It would be a great feeling...

 

...but beating the Cubs and/or Cards on the way to that moment would be pretty sweet, too...

 

Thanks for the novel of a reply. I enjoyed your great perspective and it was most refreshing than a lot of the one-liners we are all used to reading and writing.

[FVBrewerFan]

Karma is a you know what Hamels. I don't really care what he said, we've been dealing with this for several years now. I just find it odd coming from him. Isn't it enough to turn your season and career around? Going after another teams fans is pretty cheap for an an athlete, it's not like Brewers fans did anything to him. Whatever, karma will have a date with him in the future.

 

You know, I've gone to several Packers road games where it was probably over 50% Packer fans. Healthy dose of friendly ribbing? Sure. But never anything more than that. I've been to two Cubs games at MP, never again. I simply cant enjoy the game with goons shouting at me and family. Last time I couldn't take it and came back at a couple of them. Realized driving home I'm a grown man fighting with others at a ball game. Embarrassing. (To be fair I had a couple really good come backs.) But no more. It wasn't a couple bad apples, I've never seen so many jerks in one place. That's why beating them in the playoffs will be 10 times sweeter. Then they can all be furious that some of their players they never heard of blew it for them.

[BuckyBrewer61]

I know a lot of people sell their Cubs tickets to fund the rest of their season ticket package, and I don’t begrudge them that.

 

But there are a lot of fans, myself included, who simply refuse to go at this point because being a Brewers fan at a home game against the Cubs is an awful, awful experience. It’s not just being drowned out by road team fans. It’s the loud arrogant trash-talking Cubs crowd that is always there, yelling at any Brewers fan they can find more than they actually root on their own team. Every freaking game. And I apologize to those that are offended by it and think I’m part of the problem, but I’m not going to sit through 3 hours of that multiple times a year for the sake of proving my fanhood.

 

I’m a season seat holder (20-game), and I don’t sell Cubs tickets. I could, but I don’t. I just don’t buy them, because why would I? I watch sports for fun, and these games are anything but.

[Bob Skube Snacks]

I’m a Milwaukee native who has lived the majority of my adult life in Cubs territory, and for the last 14 years, in a mixed Cubs-Cardinals territory.

 

Moreover, both of my parents grew up within 15 miles of the Illinois-Wisconsin border and grew up with the rivalries.

 

There’s always been a mix of fans of Chicago and Wisconsin-based fans in southeast Wisconsin. Cubs fans used to come to County Stadium in the Braves days and vice versa. I grew up in the late 70s and 80s and Brewers-White Sox games could be, ahem, interesting. Saw a lot of fights.

 

Add other rivalries into it too. Packers-Bears was intense when I was young with the Bears dominant. Most Cubs fans are also Bears fans. Don’t think that doesn’t carry over.

 

My read on the outsized egotism from Chicago fans is that comes from an insecurity based on the fact that a city of their size, in nearly all sports, has won comparatively little. They get bagged on by cities they compare themselves too, NYC in particular, who look at them as little brothers they would never think of themselves to be.

 

So they take their insecurity out on other Midwestern cities, but in particular, Wisconsin’s two pro cities.

 

And understand the demographic differences in Cubs fans too.

 

Many are surface-level fans who jumped on at various points from 1984 on. They’re there for the party. They’re vapid and their knowledge of anything is inch-deep.

 

Then there’s the rural Cubs fans around the Midwest, primarily in Indiana, Iowa and downstate Illinois. They’re different, and generally less aggressive, than Cubs fans from Chicagoland itself.

 

Those rural fans are also the backbone of the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry, because they’re on the front lines of it. Seething St. Louis hate doesn’t exist in Chicago anywhere near like it does for Milwaukee and Wisconsin. Chicago plays St. Louis in baseball and hockey. Chicago plays Wisconsin teams in everything but hockey.

 

And for the last generation, Wisconsin teams, particularly the Packers, have had the upper hand, or at least, an even hand and that drives them crazy because they can’t exercise their superiority complex. So they grasp hard at any straw they feel gives them the upper hand, like the Cubs right now.

 

Cubs fans from Chicagoland are no different than White Sox or Bears fans from Chicagoland. Outsize aggression because of deep-seated insecurity both about the quality of their city and their cities’ teams. And not only that? With a history of failure? They fear dropping back into the abyss they only recently emerged from.

 

I tell my Cubs fans friends around here, all of whom fit into the “rural” Lower Midwest category, that watch out for a Cubs-Brewers playoff series, because it will be intense on a level they don’t understand.

 

They say, “yeah right, Cubs-Cardinals is way bigger.” And historically? They’d be right, but I don’t think anyone outside of Chicago and Wisconsin, particularly SE Wisconsin, understands the level of enmity one region has for the other. We don’t like them and they repay in kind.

 

A part of me would love it. A part of me hopes it never happens as it would be obnoxious beyond reason.

[turnbow59]

It was the same scenario at the bucks-bulls playoff game I went to a few years back. For whatever reason, it didnt cross my mind that it would be the same atmosphere. Nothing like walking down the Bradley Center stairs to a loud chorus of Bucks suck raining down on you.

[superfly]

Playoff success is the best medicine for silencing annoying Scrubs fans.

[AdvantageSchneider]

The truth: Brewers have better fans than you -- and Cole Hamels -- think

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24570766/mlb-milwaukee-brewers-fans-better-think

[AdvantageSchneider]

I know a lot of people sell their Cubs tickets to fund the rest of their season ticket package, and I don’t begrudge them that.

 

But there are a lot of fans, myself included, who simply refuse to go at this point because being a Brewers fan at a home game against the Cubs is an awful, awful experience. It’s not just being drowned out by road team fans. It’s the loud arrogant trash-talking Cubs crowd that is always there, yelling at any Brewers fan they can find more than they actually root on their own team. Every freaking game. And I apologize to those that are offended by it and think I’m part of the problem, but I’m not going to sit through 3 hours of that multiple times a year for the sake of proving my fanhood.

 

I’m a season seat holder (20-game), and I don’t sell Cubs tickets. I could, but I don’t. I just don’t buy them, because why would I? I watch sports for fun, and these games are anything but.

 

I split a full season ticket package of 4 seats with 3 friends. We sell opening day and most cubs games to help pay for the tickets, but today three of us decided to go seeing as this is the tenderloin of the playoff chase. We were still able to sell the single seat for $50. So going to the game and not selling the tickets cost us $150 at least but I can tell you that the schadenfreude was well worth it today.

[KeithStone53151]

The truth: Brewers have better fans than you -- and Cole Hamels -- think

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24570766/mlb-milwaukee-brewers-fans-better-think

 

Shhhh, you can't approach cubs fans with facts. That would be logical...

[bm1090]

I know a lot of people sell their Cubs tickets to fund the rest of their season ticket package, and I don’t begrudge them that.

 

But there are a lot of fans, myself included, who simply refuse to go at this point because being a Brewers fan at a home game against the Cubs is an awful, awful experience. It’s not just being drowned out by road team fans. It’s the loud arrogant trash-talking Cubs crowd that is always there, yelling at any Brewers fan they can find more than they actually root on their own team. Every freaking game. And I apologize to those that are offended by it and think I’m part of the problem, but I’m not going to sit through 3 hours of that multiple times a year for the sake of proving my fanhood.

 

I’m a season seat holder (20-game), and I don’t sell Cubs tickets. I could, but I don’t. I just don’t buy them, because why would I? I watch sports for fun, and these games are anything but.

 

I've been to 4 Brewers/Cubs games this year and have had no issues.

[NYChez]

I’m a Milwaukee native who has lived the majority of my adult life in Cubs territory, and for the last 14 years, in a mixed Cubs-Cardinals territory.

 

Moreover, both of my parents grew up within 15 miles of the Illinois-Wisconsin border and grew up with the rivalries.

 

There’s always been a mix of fans of Chicago and Wisconsin-based fans in southeast Wisconsin. Cubs fans used to come to County Stadium in the Braves days and vice versa. I grew up in the late 70s and 80s and Brewers-White Sox games could be, ahem, interesting. Saw a lot of fights.

 

Add other rivalries into it too. Packers-Bears was intense when I was young with the Bears dominant. Most Cubs fans are also Bears fans. Don’t think that doesn’t carry over.

 

My read on the outsized egotism from Chicago fans is that comes from an insecurity based on the fact that a city of their size, in nearly all sports, has won comparatively little. They get bagged on by cities they compare themselves too, NYC in particular, who look at them as little brothers they would never think of themselves to be.

 

So they take their insecurity out on other Midwestern cities, but in particular, Wisconsin’s two pro cities.

 

And understand the demographic differences in Cubs fans too.

 

Many are surface-level fans who jumped on at various points from 1984 on. They’re there for the party. They’re vapid and their knowledge of anything is inch-deep.

 

Then there’s the rural Cubs fans around the Midwest, primarily in Indiana, Iowa and downstate Illinois. They’re different, and generally less aggressive, than Cubs fans from Chicagoland itself.

 

Those rural fans are also the backbone of the Cubs-Cardinals rivalry, because they’re on the front lines of it. Seething St. Louis hate doesn’t exist in Chicago anywhere near like it does for Milwaukee and Wisconsin. Chicago plays St. Louis in baseball and hockey. Chicago plays Wisconsin teams in everything but hockey.

 

And for the last generation, Wisconsin teams, particularly the Packers, have had the upper hand, or at least, an even hand and that drives them crazy because they can’t exercise their superiority complex. So they grasp hard at any straw they feel gives them the upper hand, like the Cubs right now.

 

Cubs fans from Chicagoland are no different than White Sox or Bears fans from Chicagoland. Outsize aggression because of deep-seated insecurity both about the quality of their city and their cities’ teams. And not only that? With a history of failure? They fear dropping back into the abyss they only recently emerged from.

 

I tell my Cubs fans friends around here, all of whom fit into the “rural” Lower Midwest category, that watch out for a Cubs-Brewers playoff series, because it will be intense on a level they don’t understand.

 

They say, “yeah right, Cubs-Cardinals is way bigger.” And historically? They’d be right, but I don’t think anyone outside of Chicago and Wisconsin, particularly SE Wisconsin, understands the level of enmity one region has for the other. We don’t like them and they repay in kind.

 

A part of me would love it. A part of me hopes it never happens as it would be obnoxious beyond reason.

 

There’s a lot of truth in this, but having “juice” in the building for regular season MLB games is rare, and we should appreciate it. Think of how boring our schedule would be if we changed divisions with the Twins.

 

I think the rivalry of lack thereof has actually gotten to the point where it makes the Brewers better. Think of how the lack of focus has cost the Brewers in home games against bottom feeders (the infamous take a 4-0 first inning lead and then fall asleep games). There’s no losing focus in these heated games.

 

It will also help the Brewers in a playoff series, regardless of opponent. They’ll have played in playoff atmosphere games, which some of the Cubs and Cardinals games have felt like.

[MrTPlush]

Playoff atmosphere? Hardly. Mostly a road experience at home, not much more. I hope we wouldn’t sell all our tickets for a postseason game.

[Jopal78]

Hamels comments are no different than Ken Griffey Jr.’s from years back, that there is nothing to do in Milwaukee. Hamels is only familiar with Milwaukee from pitching once a year on the visiting team a half decade ago or more. Odds are pretty good if it wasn’t a weekend game the stadium was probably less than half full. lol and behold he pitches in front of a full house where 50% of the fans are Cub fans and you can see his perspective when making those comments