Detroit withdraws offer to Verlander (8 days later - signed)

[colbyjack]

Here's the story:

 

www.baseballamerica.com/t...ander.html

 

With all of the unsigned first-round picks (all collegians), maybe this is why teams draft high school pitchers instead http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif . Interesting news to say the least, and I'm still a little surprised that so many picks remain unsigned. Are these players trying to go up against the obvious collusion MLB teams are taking towards the draft? Turning down $3+ million dollars has never been a smart move by any pick.

[Al the Thinking Man]

Turning down $3+ million dollars has never been a smart move by any pick.

 

These fellas need to hire a financial advisor that would tell them exactly this. As it is, they have looked at history (Mr. Harrington) and not learned a damn thing.

 

Not only have they turned down a lifetime of financial security, they have effectively delayed free agency one year, shall they have success. Jason Varitek should have been a FA 2 years ago, for example, but did the same silly thing.

 

Good luck boys.

[bjkrautk]

I'm surprised to see that out of all the eligible Rice pitchers, the Brewers have the best one that's actually signed. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

The problem as I see it is the tremendous conflict of interest for the agents. A good amateur player goes through the draft process maybe three times, and only if they don't sign in their first two opportunities (HS Senior, College Junior & Senior). A player only gets one shot at the proverbial apple; they want as much as they can get, but the dollar maximums is fairly entrenched by the trends and history of the draft. A player's agent, on the other hand, can actually raise the raise the bar for future deals based on how they handle current ones; a more aggressive strategy pays off for the agent in the long run.

 

Serve your client....or serve yourself.

[jwaltz]

The kid wanted a major league deal and the Tigers said done. They then offered him $3mil which is about right for slot money. And he turned it down? Both he and his agent are idiots.

[squarepusher]

Is turning down 3M really worth the risk of pulling a Harrington, or being branded with the scarlet letter ala JD Drew?

 

What's going through his mind? If I was offered 3 million dollars, and the alternative was to take a huge risk that I get injured in the next year or just lose my skills altogether, I don't think I would say... "you know, I really need 3.4 million from you to make this work".

[jwaltz]

If I was offered 3mil, I wouldn't care what my agent said. I would take it. Seeing how Rogers got 2.5? a few spots lower, 3mil sounds pretty good.

[EdgarDiazRocks]

Quote:

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"It's not a ploy, it's not a posturing, it's not a back-you-into-a-corner," Smith said. "It's a decision we've made. We have no plans at this point, unfortunately, to sign Justin Verlander. I'm not happy about it."

 

Five other first-round picks remain unsigned: Rice righthanders Philip Humber (No. 3, Mets), Jeff Niemann (No. 4, Devil Rays) and Wade Townsend (No. 8, Orioles), Long Beach State righthander Jered Weaver (No. 12, Angels) and Florida State shortstop Stephen Drew (No. 15, Diamondbacks). Townsend has returned to classes at Rice and sought a loophole to continue negotiating with Baltimore, but Major League Baseball ruled against him.

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I love Dave Dombrowski. These guys are trying to hold teams hostage and he says "I'm not taking part of it, there's Cubans to be had"

 

Does anybody still think that the Padres are stupid for staying the hell out of this mess?

 

Also on a side note, I hope the Brewers at least make a cursory bid for Kendry Morales to play 3B.

[colbyjack]

Does anybody still think that the Padres are stupid for staying the hell out of this mess?

 

I don't know if anyone thought the Padres were stupid to stay out of this mess, but I do know I'm not the only that questioned their pick of Matt Bush on draft day. It's one thing to take a budget pick to avoid the headaches, it's another to take the wrong budget pick.

 

Also on a side note, I hope the Brewers at least make a cursory bid for Kendry Morales to play 3B.

 

Can Morales play 3B? If so, I agree, and it might be a good time to pounce on a Cuban since seemingly everyone else has somewhat soured given the lackluster success of other Cubans like Contreras. But then again, people were talking about Contreras the same way they're talking about Morales now, as one of the best Cuban players to come out in years. I have heard that Morales age (21) is legitimate, so that's an obvious plus.

 

Still, I would never count the Yankees out.

[EdgarDiazRocks]

Can Morales play 3B?

 

It would appear not. BA reported him as a "corner infielder" but then I found this . . . .

 

Quote:

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Teams remain skeptical of 1B Kendry Morales, a Cuban defector.

 

"He's not a National League player," one G.M. says. "He's just a bat - a well-below average runner, not really a good defender. And he might need to spend one or two years in the minors. He's (Erubiel) Durazo if it all comes together, but how much is that worth?"

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Patrick, who would you have gone with as the Padres budget pick? Chris Nelson? Bailey?

 

Was stunned when BA ranked Nelson that high on the Pioneer League list since he didn't even play all that much, but he would be the only other one I would have gone with in their position (hindsight now included).

 

I don't think Bush is much more of a gamble than any High School pitcher.

[colbyjack]

Patrick, who would you have gone with as the Padres budget pick? Chris Nelson? Bailey?

 

Nelson. When BA reported that the Padres were leaning towards Bush a day or two before the draft, I said that Nelson would have been a much better choice for the #1 overall pick. I noted much earlier in the spring that even Jeremy Sowers would have made a lot of sense for them.

 

I think it's cool that a player stepped forward & expressed that he would be interested in playing for his hometown team, but I think the Padres fell too hard for that after being shocked by their owner that they couldn't spend anywhere near the money necessary for a Weaver, Niemann or Drew. I realize they didn't have much time to make a choice, but their senses clearly were blinded IMO, and they have no one to blame for themselves now for the player they ended up with.

[Bonderman38]

Hey guys, for anyone that cares, the word here in Detroit is that the Tigers offered Verlander a major league contract worth around 4 million, give or take a couple hundred grand. However, Verlander and his agent wanted a lot more than that. Speculation is that the gap between the two sides were 1.5-2 million. As much as I love Verlander's upside, he is not worth that much money. Mark Prior, Texeira, Upton, Young, Weeks, yes, but Verlander? Don't think so, imo.

 

As a person who busts his butt to make only 42 grand a year, I'm not sure how Verlander could turn that offer down. Of course, I don't have a 99 mph arm, but still that's a heck of a lot of money he's turning down. Maybe he should phone Matt Harrington for his advice. I mean, even after taxes, Verlander could invest that money, or simply put it in a bank, etc. and he could earn 100,000 on interest annually. He'd be set for life, even if he blew out his arm. Don't know what he and his agent is thinking.

 

Anyways, does anyone here have a guess at how high of a supplemental 1st round pick the Tigers will get for losing Verlander? I'm hoping it'll be a high suppl. pick, 31 or 32 would be great. Looking forward to the 2005 draft...

[colbyjack]

Howdy Bonderman, thanks for popping in. You said it best, Verlander has a great arm, but his control issues haven't exactly made him a can't-miss prospect. I think a $4 million dollar deal, including a MLB contract, is way more than fair. In fact, that's a little more than I expected he would make. That's too bad, I was really looking forward to seeing both Verlander & Sleeth in the Tigers organization. At least there is still plenty of time, and I applaud Dombroski from stepping away. If that doesn't get Verlander's attention I don't know what will.

 

As for a supplemental pick, all sandwich picks for lost first rounders from the year before are issued after all of the supplemental picks awarded for lost free agents. Unfortunately you're probably looking in the 40-45 range.

[jwaltz]

Now Verlander is definately crazy. Lock him up. He turned down four mil? And he wanted 1.5-2 more to sign? He is either insane or an utter idiot. He isn't Mark Prior. He also isn't a sure thing at all. Sure, his stuff is great, but he has control issues. His agent had to know that Dombroski is way to smart to fall for that. And Dombroski isn't going to waste that much on him.

[Bonderman38]

Thanks for clearing that up Colby. 40-45, or so, comp pick for losing Verlander isn't too bad I guess, though I'm still holding out hope that Verlander and his agent will come to their senses and call up Dombrowski to try to get a deal done.

 

I really think Verlander's agent dropped the ball on this one. My own guess is that he looked at how the Tigers were overpaying some free agents they signed over the past off season (i.e. Fernando Vina) and thought maybe they could get the Tigers to overpay for the #2 pick.

 

BTW, I really like the new look to the site and am already loving the 2005 draft coverage, great stuff colby!

[colbyjack]

I'm glad you like the site changes, and am also glad that you noticed the '05 coverage has already been posted. I probably won't change much of it until early next year, but I figured I'd get it up there since we were changing to many different features inside & out. Plus, it's nice to refer to just to get a general idea of the top players, the draft order, etc. as a handy resource.

[MassBrew]

What do ya know?

 

Looks like the Tigers just signed Verlander; I'm sure BA and other sites will have details soon...

[colbyjack]

Thanks MB, I was just about to post that. It's easy to miss BA's "breaking news" headline below their feature story today.

 

Good news for Tigers fans, and good for their GM Dombrowski to allegedly cut ties and let Verlander & his agent come back to him.

 

With Verlander signing, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more follow suit. Humber & Niemann, selected right after Verlander, could fall into place in the next few weeks.

 

Actually, there's a link up on the Tigers' MLB site:

 

detroit.tigers.mlb.com/NA...&fext=.jsp

 

Looking forward to Bonderman & other Tiger fans thoughts if they bother to stop by...

[RobertR]

"It's not a ploy, it's not a posturing, it's not a back-you-into-a-corner," Smith said. "It's a decision we've made. We have no plans at this point, unfortunately, to sign Justin Verlander. I'm not happy about it."

 

Sure.

 

Nice to have the reminder that you just can't believe everything you're told.

 

Robert

[bjkrautk]

I'm willing to guess that it actually wasn't posturing on Detroit's part.

 

Of course, I don't know what the numbers are, or were prior to the "end" of negotiaitons, but for something to happen relatively quickly after that statement suggests to me that someone other than the agent broke through to Verlander himself. I doubt he wanted to be the next Matt Harrington himself.....and he should now be set for the rest of his life.

 

Good for him.

[madbad2000]

Looks like he got a major league deal out of it too. At the end of Patrick's link there was a note that a roster move would be pending once official.

[Bonderman38]

Whew, it feels great to get Verlander wrapped up! The Tigers need all the young talent they can get, and hope that a couple will turn out to be impact players. The deal was believed to be for about 4 million. According to the Tigers official site, Verlander's father was the one that got the negotiations restarted. Also, it sounds like Verlander got rid of his agent, good for him. I'm really looking forward to following his progress through the minors.

[CarolinaTommy]

Good for you as a Tigers fan. I think that Justin Verlander was the top prospect in the 2004 draft -- merely my opinion!

[EdgarDiazRocks]

Quote:

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BY GENE GUIDI

FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER

 

After saying earlier this month they had withdrawn their offer to top draft choice Justin Verlander, the Tigers announced Friday they had signed the Old Dominion right-hander to a five-year contract.

 

Financial terms weren't announced, but it's believed the Tigers were willing to give the No. 2 overall draft pick a major league contract worth about $4 million.

 

Scouting director Greg Smith credited Verlander's father, Richard, with getting the negotiations back on track this week.

 

"If it wasn't for Mr. Verlander, we wouldn't be sitting here today," Smith said during a conference call. "We were able to create a dialogue that hadn't been there."

 

Richard Verlander said he was a union representative.

 

"I know a little bit about the process of negotiations," he said. "There's a time when the parties have to reach out personally."

 

Conspicuous by his absence Friday was Verlander's agent, Mike Milchin.

 

Justin Verlander declined comment when asked if Milchin still represented him.

 

Asked if the stalled negotiations had him thinking about alternatives to starting his professional career next year, Verlander said: "It had crossed my mind. But I did know I wanted to be a Tiger."

 

Verlander was considered among the top pitching prospects in the draft because of a fastball that reaches 99 m.p.h. to go along with a very good curveball.

 

"He's a 21-year-old junior that we think still has a lot of upside," Smith said.

 

Verlander will join the Tigers in spring training, where the team will decide where he will start his minor league career.

 

Even though his late signing prevented him from pitching in the minors and instructional leagues this year, Verlander said he has done a lot of work to stay in shape while waiting for his immediate future to be decided.

 

"I think I've made great strides physically," he said. "I feel like I'm in the best shape of my life."

 

Verlander was one of six first-round picks among the top 15 that had yet to sign before Friday.

 

When Smith announced this month that negotiations had broken off, there was speculation that the Tigers would take the money earmarked for Verlander and put it toward free agents.

 

More of Verlander's compensation apparently will be deferred with the later signing, but president and general manager Dave Dombrowski said the deal wouldn't affect off-season plans.

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[EdgarDiazRocks]

Hmmm.....

 

Quote:

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As draftee visits, Tigers demote scouting chief

 

November 5, 2004

 

BY GEORGE SIPPLE

FREE PRESS SPORTS WRITER

 

Justin Verlander, the Tigers' first-round draft pick, came to town Thursday with his family and toured Comerica Park. The same day, the Tigers demoted scouting director Greg Smith, the person responsible for drafting Verlander.

 

Although the Tigers had trouble signing Verlander to a contract, president and general manager Dave Dombrowski said that wasn't the reason for Smith's demotion. Smith was reassigned as a special assignment scout for the Pacific Rim.

 

David Chadd, director of amateur scouting for the Boston Red Sox, was hired as the Tigers' vice president for amateur scouting.

 

Dombrowski indicated that the club must do a better job in its procurement of young players. "For us to be the best, we have to have a constant flow of young players coming into our system," he said. "If we don't, we will not be successful, going out on the free-agent market year in and year out."

 

Verlander, the No. 2 overall pick in June, held out for more than four months before signing Oct. 22. He got a five-year deal worth about $4 million. Before Verlander signed, negotiations had broken down with his agent, Mike Milchin, and the Tigers withdrew their offer. His future with the team appeared dim.

 

When Verlander's father, Richard, found out the Tigers had withdrawn the offer, he contacted Smith and began a dialogue that ended with a contract in less than a week.

 

Justin Verlander, a right-handed pitcher from Old Dominion, didn't want to talk about the negotiations Thursday. "Not really going to talk about what happened five or six weeks ago," he said. "But when things finally did turn around, it was great. Not only for me, but my family. I'm just really excited for the opportunity to play for this organization.

 

"I always wanted to play for the Tigers. It worked out for the best."

 

Verlander's father, a union representative, said his background in negotiations came in handy, and that helped restart talks between the sides. "I just felt like that had been missing, and I wanted to reach out to the Tigers myself," Richard Verlander said. "We knew that Justin wanted to be a Tiger, and after the draft, we were prepared to just let the process run its course. Never did we think that things would get to the point where the offer is being withdrawn."

 

Richard Verlander said Milchin still was his son's agent, but he wouldn't discuss what he thought of the agent's role in the stalled negotiations.

 

Why didn't Verlander's father handle negotiations from the start?

 

"I know I'm too close to the situation," he said. "Generally a doctor's patients aren't his own family."

 

Also accompanying Justin Verlander were his mother, Kathy; 12-year-old brother, Ben, and girlfriend, Emily Yuen. They toured the locker room and took in a field-level view of the ballpark.

 

Verlander, a self-described power pitcher who grew up a fan of Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens, said he throws a four- and two-seam fastball, a knuckle curveball and a circle change-up. He said his fastball is consistently in the 94-m.p.h. range and has been clocked at 99.

 

During his holdout, Verlander threw twice a week and played a lot of golf.

 

Dombrowski credited Richard Verlander with helping get a deal.

 

"It's amazing to where we were then to where we are now," Dombrowski said.

 

With his top pick in place, Dombrowski started making changes in the scouting department.

 

Smith, scouting director since 1996, was put in charge of evaluating talent in the Pacific Rim, scouting several major league teams during spring training and scouting potential free agents.

 

Smith said he wouldn't have remained with Tigers "if I had been asked to stay just to stay. Dave assured me that was not the case.

 

"It still all comes down to identifying and finding players. I will not be doing it at the high school and collegiate level. I'll be doing it in spring training, in an independent league, in L.A. somewhere, in Tokyo somewhere. It's a different type of hunt and still in an arena that Dave wanted to be part of the equation."

 

Chadd, the new vice president for amateur scouting, knows Dombrowski from their days with the Florida Marlins. Chadd worked eight years for the Marlins and became scouting director in 2001. He went to the Red Sox in 2002. Dombrowski called him "a quality baseball man and a tremendous leader."

 

The Tigers also hired James Orr as assistant scouting director. Orr, a former Marlins scout, most recently was a professional scout for the Red Sox.

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[EdgarDiazRocks]

Even more from this from BA, I find it all fascinating at least. . . .

 

 

 

Quote:

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Will there be any fallout from Detroit's apparently signing Justin Verlander sans agent? Will other agents treat the Tigers differently? And the union? One would think they'd be entirely professional in their behavior, but . . .

 

Rich Shook

Plymouth, Mich.

 

The Tigers won't face any repercussions, subtle or otherwise, from the agents or the union. After they announced that they were pulling their offer to Verlander, the No. 2 pick in the 2004 draft, they didn't circumvent his adviser, Mike Milchin of SFX. Verlander's family, led by his father Richard (a professional negotiator), reached out to the Tigers. A major league contract with a $3.12 million bonus and a $4.5 guaranteed million quickly ensued.

 

The strongest reaction came from other scouting directors. An unprecedented four first-rounders remain in negotiations in early November: Rice righthanders Philip Humber (No. 3, Mets) and Jeff Niemann (No. 4, Devil Rays), Long Beach State righty Jered Weaver (No. 12, Angels) and Florida State shortstop Stephen Drew (No. 15, Diamondbacks). And the scouting directors blame the agents. One who still hasn't signed his first-rounder said he wasn't surprised Verlander's family got a lucrative deal done so quickly with the Tigers once they got directly involved. That same director said he doubted the family had been informed of what Detroit had offered previously.

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And more Chadd v. Smith stuff . . .

 

Quote:

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Tigers sorely needed scouting change

 

Farm system weakened by poor drafts forced Dombrowski to hire two from champion Red Sox

 

By Lynn Henning / The Detroit News

 

Tigers oust Greg Smith and reshape their scouting department: There were a lot of reasons why Smith was demoted last week and why two sharpies who had been working for the Red Sox ? and earlier, for the Florida Marlins ? are now in charge of straightening out a historically awful Tigers farm system.

 

But these two names stood as big reasons why Smith was exiled: Scott Moore and Brent Clevlen.

 

They were the first players the Tigers drafted in 2002, Dave Dombrowski?s inaugural draft as president and general manager. Detroit had the first round?s eighth pick and took Moore, a high school infielder. Clevlen, a high school outfielder, was the team?s second-round choice.

 

Here are their numbers from 2004 at Class A Lakeland: Moore played 118 games, had 391 at-bats, and hit .223 with a .322 on-base average and .384 slugging percentage. He hit 14 home runs, had 56 RBI and struck out a whopping 125 times.

 

Ouch. Dombrowski always has believed that, when drafting early in the first round, you need to not only grab a certified big-leaguer, you better select a future All-Star.

 

Clevlen was almost Moore?s equal: 117 games, 420 at-bats, .224 batting average, .300 on-base percentage (gasp) and a .350 slugging percentage. He had six home runs, 50 RBI and struck out a sickly 127 times.

 

Granted, these were young men two years out of high school, and a lot can happen between now and the time each hits his make-it-or-break-it line.

 

But this was not an uplifting year for the Tigers? minor-league system ? again ? and it was a matter of time before Smith became accountable.

 

Some of us had refrained from openly questioning his tenure, which began under Randy Smith in 1996, because you can?t always be sure who is doing the selling when a player is selected. There are national scouts, regional scouts, cross-checking scouts, and front-office bosses who all have their input. Attempting to discern who most promoted whom can be risky business.

 

Randy Smith was not only the man who pulled the trigger on draft day during his six years as general manager in Detroit, he did a great deal of the final-stages scouting. Dombrowski does less on-site evaluation and leans on heavier input from trusted scouts.

 

The key word there is ?trusted.? And the suspicion ? confirmed, it would appear, by last week?s decision ? is that Greg Smith had too much to say about too many draft picks who annually washed out of the Tigers? anemic farm system these past eight years.

 

Some of us likewise wondered if Mike Ilitch, the Tigers? owner, would decide at some point ? in conjunction with Dombrowski ? to throw more money at their scouting system after so many years of abject failure. As much as money might help remedy an embarrassing legacy of bad judgment, scouts with greater wisdom plainly had to be a bigger part of the Tigers? reformation.

 

It looks as if Ilitch and Dombrowski made their move last week in shuffling Smith and replacing him with David Chadd, a respected Red Sox scouting director who worked with Dombrowski in Florida, and James Orr (Red Sox and Marlins pedigree, as well), who becomes assistant scouting director.

 

Ilitch has spent big money in the past making sure the Red Wings had a scouting system that could identify talent, even in some distant corner of Europe, others were overlooking. It?s an even more difficult chore finding sure-thing baseball prospects ? unless you have people who carry the pedigree and promise of someone such as Chadd.

 

Thumb back through the Tigers? drafts since 1979 and you are left in disbelief. Only rarely did anyone make it to the big leagues; all too often, players who should have been in Detroit ended up with other clubs.

 

Meanwhile, other clubs ? Minnesota, Cleveland, Montreal, you name it ? drafted and developed talent that always seemed to elude the Tigers? appraisers.

 

The ugly stuff had to end. Dombrowski might have waited too long, for whatever reasons, to make changes. But this situation had to be altered radically, and immediately, if the Tigers hope to become anything other than a perennial insult in the years ahead.

 

Nearly two decades of bad baseball in Detroit can be easily explained: No one knew how to select talent. A heavy bet here is that 2005?s draft will underscore why so many previous Tigers drafts were unnecessarily awful.

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