2018-09-01: Brewers (Anderson) at Nationals (Strasburg) 6:05 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 5-4 -- Lead Blown in 8th Inning After Two Hour Rain Delay]

[Fear The Chorizo]

Per TomH

As expected, Craig Counsell said Josh Hader was not available tonight because of heavy use and need for rest.

 

Then why even have hader dress? With roster expansion the dugout/bullpen probably could use the extra space. It's like he's a franchise qb in the preseason or something...

[adambr2]

I refuse to believe that CC wouldn't have used Hader if he was available. It would defy all logic. If this is proven otherwise, then by all means, crucify CC.

 

So, Hader wasn't available after a day of rest following 2 days of work, but Jennings was available for the 3rd straight day and 4th in the last 5 days?

 

You don’t believe that they’d limit a prized arm over a journeyman reliever? It is very plausible that Hader is being limited as an organizational plan.

 

I believe that they would do it, I just hate it quite a bit because of how crucial each game is right now and how much it sucked missing the playoffs by 1 game last season.

 

At some point they've got to choose their priorities here. I'm not saying you should be risking injury, but it's September and if you're serious about playing in a month you're going to have to push guys. We are not going to make the playoffs by trusting critical innings in September to guys like Dan Jennings and Jordan Lyles.

[rickh150]

[i apologize if you are offended.

 

Offended? No. Confused by your post? A little. Think it sounds like a two year old throwing a temper tantrum? Most definitely.

 

Uhhh, your honor......

Apology from guy A to guy B for guy A's comment directed at no one....

Followed by the attitude and needless attack from guy B to guy A., ala Shawn Michael's chin music on Marty Jenety.

Isn't irony great?

[schmidtac20]

At the end of the day. The higher ups in the organization wanted to copy a model similar to the Royals. Deep lineup, average rotation, and good bullpen.

 

I am not denying the fact that counsell should have gone with Hader over Jennings (I would’ve) but it’s so easy to point fingers after the fact. Josh Hader has not been good inheriting runners over the course of the last month.

 

Every move Counsell makes will be ciriticized or questioned because he was given a starting rotation that can’t go past 6 innings on anybgiven basis. Our best starter, went 6.1 innings yesterday and that was an accomplishment. For comparison, Kluber has gone 6+ scoreless innings 8 times throughout the course of the season.

 

 

Counsell is given another starter who will go 5 complete with 4 earned (Gio) and everyone wants to sing Kumbaya for Stearns even though he took the Farm system from 9th to 19th (some rankings far lower) and the team hasn’t improved at all after the moves (lost ground on Chicago, STL, Col, LAD, ATL.)

 

 

Soria lost the game tonight and Stearns deserves most of the blame for not giving Counsell the adequate rotation.

[brewcrewdue80]

There really has to be something to the ASG/leaks that kept Hader from warming up and pitching. Stupid loss on decisions. Makes no sense to save Hader for tomorrow with the Cubs series games lurking. Use him tomorrow, and hes likely available for 1 game then. Use him in the right moment here and he's going to be rested for Monday. I swear we did this earlier in the season where we used Hader/Jeffress/Kneble the game before Cubs series and I dont even think we were leading. Tied at the beginning. This is going to happen tomorrow now and you'll see Jennings/Lyles once again at bad time in the Cubs series.

[brewmann04]

not the way to start the final month of the season terrible loss

[trwi7]

Per TomH

As expected, Craig Counsell said Josh Hader was not available tonight because of heavy use and need for rest.

 

We needed him for one batter. This was not a hey let's send him out there for the 8th and 9th. This was one batter, an elite hitter to face off against our elite pitcher. If he gets Soto, we head to the 9th up 2 at minimum against Zimmerman and the bottom of their order, which is horrendous. If Soto gets a hit, you get the same result as what happened and likely only used Hader for a 1-6 pitches.

 

Hader hasn't really been overworked lately either. His last outing was 10 pitches and that was 2 days earlier. If we can't use Hader for one hitter after a 10 pitch outing 2 days earlier and a longer, kind of disaster outing 3 days ago, when are we ever going to use him?

[pacopete4]

Per Adam McCalvy

Craig Counsell on the Josh Hader question: “We’ve got to get him proper rest to have him recover to pitch well the next time he pitches. That’s how it has to be. That’s how it’s always going to be.”

 

This seems to fall under the idea that it’d just be better if he was a starter.

[trwi7]

Per Adam McCalvy

Craig Counsell on the Josh Hader question: “We’ve got to get him proper rest to have him recover to pitch well the next time he pitches. That’s how it has to be. That’s how it’s always going to be.”

 

This seems to fall under the idea that it’d just be better if he was a starter.

 

I would at least try it if it's going to be 3 days of rest every time he pitches a couple innings or rarely available for back to back games and just shut down all discussion for 3 in 4.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Per Adam McCalvy

Craig Counsell on the Josh Hader question: “We’ve got to get him proper rest to have him recover to pitch well the next time he pitches. That’s how it has to be. That’s how it’s always going to be.”

 

This seems to fall under the idea that it’d just be better if he was a starter.

 

Yep. If "that's how it's always going to be", I'd rather have him pitching 6-7+ innings every five days. He's a high effort guy, so maybe pitching 3 innings or to one batter has a similar effect on his body.

[superfly]

Should be fired for even thinking we're dumb enough to accept that answer. 1 batter. The attitude displayed when asked the question was ridiculous to boot. CC is a joke

[MNBrew]

Per TomH

As expected, Craig Counsell said Josh Hader was not available tonight because of heavy use and need for rest.

 

We needed him for one batter. This was not a hey let's send him out there for the 8th and 9th. This was one batter, an elite hitter to face off against our elite pitcher. If he gets Soto, we head to the 9th up 2 at minimum against Zimmerman and the bottom of their order, which is horrendous. If Soto gets a hit, you get the same result as what happened and likely only used Hader for a 1-6 pitches.

 

Hader hasn't really been overworked lately either. His last outing was 10 pitches and that was 2 days earlier. If we can't use Hader for one hitter after a 10 pitch outing 2 days earlier and a longer, kind of disaster outing 3 days ago, when are we ever going to use him?

I agree with this logic, but in the end, if he wasn't available, then he wasn't available and that's that.

 

I'd guess this sort of situation happens all the time with guys in the bullpen. It's just not been so often this year that the reliever we probably needed most wasn't available and then the available guy(s) blew it.

 

If there's a sliver of a silver lining to this ugly loss tonight, it's that there's probably a really good chance Jennings isn't available tomorrow!

[Bulldogboy]

Hader should be put in the rotation. A reliever that needs 2-3 days off after every outing is not sustainable.

[rickh150]

To see the urgency of the DS trades one day and Jennings pitching in that situation the next..... it's incomprehensible. On top of this all, Who was pitching the 9th?????

[schmidtac20]

To see the urgency of the DS trades one day and Jennings pitching in that situation the next..... it's incomprehensible. On top of this all, Who was pitching the 9th?????

 

 

Two of the three players acquired in those “urgent DS trades” played tonight. What’s your point?

[MNBrew]

According to TH on Twitter, Jeffress would've pitched the 9th if we were leading.

[rickh150]

To see the urgency of the DS trades one day and Jennings pitching in that situation the next..... it's incomprehensible. On top of this all, Who was pitching the 9th?????

 

 

Two of the three players acquired in those “urgent DS trades” played tonight. What’s your point?

 

Struggling Jennings pitching in that spot makes sense if we are not in a pennant race in September. With the game on the line, in the middle of a pennant race, with a healthy day-rested Hader (and Jeffress) on the pine, it doesn't.

 

Stearns made urgent moves, and many of them (7 in the last month) to get us in the playoffs, we hope. Counsell's moves (not stretching out Andersen -and especially Burnes- a few more outs if he knows Hader and Jeffress are not available) seem to be not as urgent. Relying on backend struggling relievers in crunch time, not putting in a top 5 or 6 bullpen arm or even Gonzalez against a lefty, is not playoff baseball. Plus, presumably scheduling sitting days for Jeffress and Hader on Sat. likely ties us up with their usage on Sunday and the Cubs series. If either pitches Sun., will outings be limited against the Cubs?

 

In a nut shell, it looks like DS wants every game and CC is playing with November and December in mind for some reason. Not pinch running Aguilar immediately in the 9th goes to that point too.

[rickh150]

According to TH on Twitter, Jeffress would've pitched the 9th if we were leading.

 

Jeffress can't pitch to a batter in the 8th? If he gives up a hit and the lead, then bring in the gang. Coulda sat Jeffress Sunday and he could in essence pitch in all the Cubs games.

[schmidtac20]

To see the urgency of the DS trades one day and Jennings pitching in that situation the next..... it's incomprehensible. On top of this all, Who was pitching the 9th?????

 

 

Two of the three players acquired in those “urgent DS trades” played tonight. What’s your point?

 

Struggling Jennings pitching in that spot makes sense if we are not in a pennant race in September. With the game on the line, in the middle of a pennant race, with a healthy day-rested Hader (and Jeffress) on the pine, it doesn't.

 

Stearns made urgent moves, and many of them (7 in the last month) to get us in the playoffs, we hope. Counsell's moves (not stretching out Andersen -and especially Burnes- a few more outs if he knows Hader and Jeffress are not available) seem to be not as urgent. Relying on backend struggling relievers in crunch time, not putting in a top 5 or 6 bullpen arm or even Gonzalez against a lefty, is not playoff baseball. Plus, presumably scheduling sitting days for Jeffress and Hader on Sat. likely ties us up with their usage on Sunday and the Cubs series. If either pitches Sun., will outings be limited against the Cubs?

 

In a nut shell, it looks like DS wants every game and CC is playing with November and December in mind for some reason. Not pinch running Aguilar immediately in the 9th goes to that point too.

 

 

What on Earth made you think stretching out Anderson would work? “Stretching” him out to the 5th inning vs Pittsburgh almost blew up in Counsells face; chase Anderson is not a starter you can rely on. Dan Jennings is the only questionable move Counsell made tonight, and it’s questionable because it didn’t work out. He used one of his acquisitions from Stearns in the 6th, used another acquisition in the 8th (it failed) and made a move the franchise may have wanted him to make (read my post above about royals) with Jennings.

 

You can say Stearns is going all in. At the end of the day, most (not Phillies) NL playoff teams have passed them in the standings since the trade deadline.

 

The brewers have no pitching and they will never have a starter consistently go more than 6 innings. That is why they won’t make the playoffs. That is not on the manager.

[Boomer5]

It’s this boards contention that CC willingly doesn’t put Hader into games because he wants to lose?

 

Obviously Hader is used abnormally and requires more rest than we would like.

 

Soria has been the problem lately. He does the job he was brought here for and the use of Hader doesn’t exist.

[PinaMadness]

Correct me if I'm wrong,but someone wise told me Hader would only be used when they had the lead and that he can't pitch 90 games. Oh now I remember. It was CC, and I quote:

 

"You're not going to have him when you want him and you're going to run out of games. He can't pitch 90 games. It's just not going to work. If anyone thinks it's going to work, show me how."

 

So CC, we had the lead. Where was Hader?

[PinaMadness]

 

Furthermore, of Hader is "up there in innings", why is he being used in multiple innings? I've said before that I would rather have him pitch one inning per appearance in exchange for more appearances. We had the bullpen guys at one point to cover his second inning and thanks to you pulling starters that could go one more inning, now we don't.

 

Then on the follow up about Jennings he says "We were hoping to avoid him." Well, you were hoping to avoid Hader too for the exact same reason, yet tie goes to Jennings?

[coolhandluke121]

Hader just had an outing as bad as Soria's, if not worse. This armchair quarterbacking is ridiculous. You have to give him rest. Guys have to execute. You have no idea who's going to execute and who's not. You need quality innings from guys other than JJ and Hader.

 

If you don't rest JJ and Hader, they'll start struggling too. It happened last year when Hader, Swarzak, and Knebel were the only guys CC could trust.

 

9/18 - 9/22, Knebel pitches 4 times. Blows a save and gives up 3 runs in 3 innings in the last 2 of those outings - more runs than he gave up in all of August.

8/30 - 9/4, Hader pitches 4 times despite being a young rookie and having pitched on <2 days rest 3 times all year, gives up 3 runs in 1 inning in the last 2 of those outings

8/26 - 8/31, Swarzak pitches 4 times, gives up 2 runs in 1.2 innings in the last 2 of those outings

 

All of those guys had e.r.a.'s under 2.5 for the Brewers last year. All of those stretches represent a slight but crucial uptick in their workload from what they were used to all year because the Brewers were in the thick of the wild card chase and CC couldn't trust anyone else. They used their best relievers a little too much and ended up losing several of those games anyway, and then they still had to use bad relievers in crucial situations because because those guys needed even more rest.

 

You just compound all your problems when you overuse your relievers. Guys have to execute. Soria is a good reliever and they made the right call. It's baseball. There's no crying in baseball. It's impulsive and petulant to complain about not getting to see Hader pitch 3-4 times a week. Give it a rest.

[coolhandluke121]

Then on the follow up about Jennings he says "We were hoping to avoid him." Well, you were hoping to avoid Hader too for the exact same reason, yet tie goes to Jennings?

 

Of course it does. He's not a part of the team's long-term plans, they don't have to protect his arm, and veterans are often better adapted to more innings and more frequent outings.

[mtrebs]

I’m not as down on CC as a bunch on the board are, but the thing I don’t like is that he takes too long to start warming up guys. It was obvious that Soria lost his control after that slip, and yet he watched him struggle mightily for too long before warming anyone up. It’s September 1, you’re in a pennant race, and you just had the call ups. You have to manage to win each game now. Can’t hold everyone for tomorrow because when you lose today it makes tomorrow’s game even more important.

 

Going back to Soria’s slip, the Brewers have had multiple games now where the umpires have had them play in poor conditions and it has cost them games and potential injury. I hope the Brewers file some sort of complaint, although it likely won’t do anything.