How Much Blame Does CC Deserve Since May?

[YelichPosse]

I think Counsell has mostly managed the bullpen well. I am generally on board only using Hader and Jeffress with leads.

 

I think people like to be mad just to be mad (and understandably we were on a terrible bad streak on Saturday).

 

"Use Hader and Jeffress! We haven't used them for a week [on Saturday night]" - A lot of people like to use hindsight 20/20 when making other criticisms...well, we didn't score in the 9th inning. Lyles gave up 2 runs getting left in for too long but in hindsight, we wouldn't have won no matter what. So that worked out correctly. Didn't use Hader/Jeffress, didn't have to.

 

The one complaint I did have was the Cubs game. Guerra was at 47 pitches through 3 but we had our chance to strike in that game and instead let Guerra bat and end the inning, remaining down 4-2. The bullpen was rested going into that so I'd have pinch hit Aguilar and taken our chance to try to tie/take the lead there.

 

In all, he's doing alright. I think he embraces the newer-age bullpen ball but he hasn't gone full Kapler or Rays on it yet (as seen by the Cubs game example).

 

Could be better but could be much, much worse. So I'm fine with him.

 

 

I understand everyone's points from the most upset to the most supportive of CC. He's not a BAD manager by any stretch. I just wonder how much some moves have cost us. That Cubs game does stand out for me also. That was a head scratching move. Between that, and the StL game one, I think with those both being losses that completely compounded the thoughts many of us had. I know for me it clouded any good he did prior.

 

Of course we are still in the race, and it's a jumbled race at the top in the NL. I just hope he makes sense and doesn't let JJ and Hader waste away mostly unused as we slide down the standings page further and further. It's go time now.

 

Which STL game are you talking about?

 

On Friday, Peralta lost the game in the 3rd inning essentially.

 

On Saturday, the Brewers were behind 0-3 going into the 8th. They scored 2 runs. It was 2-3 and he left Lyles out there to the "OMG HADER/JEFFRESS HAVEN'T PITCHED IN 10 DAYS" Kato Kaelin and twitter mob tweets. Well, we got shut out in the 9th. So it was in hindsight the correct decision in all likelihood.

 

I was busy over the weekend so didn't really watch much of the games, only followed here and there so is there something that I missed?

 

The first was the claw back within one game where Peralta gave up 3 early then held serve. That was the Hader JJ game. I also believe he should have went to them to hold it and see where the chips fall down one in the 9th. It is a different dynamic being down 1 or 3. Who knows either way. The 2nd game was the Miley game where CC got tossed right away.

[bill hAll Star]

 

 

I understand everyone's points from the most upset to the most supportive of CC. He's not a BAD manager by any stretch. I just wonder how much some moves have cost us. That Cubs game does stand out for me also. That was a head scratching move. Between that, and the StL game one, I think with those both being losses that completely compounded the thoughts many of us had. I know for me it clouded any good he did prior.

 

Of course we are still in the race, and it's a jumbled race at the top in the NL. I just hope he makes sense and doesn't let JJ and Hader waste away mostly unused as we slide down the standings page further and further. It's go time now.

 

Which STL game are you talking about?

 

On Friday, Peralta lost the game in the 3rd inning essentially.

 

On Saturday, the Brewers were behind 0-3 going into the 8th. They scored 2 runs. It was 2-3 and he left Lyles out there to the "OMG HADER/JEFFRESS HAVEN'T PITCHED IN 10 DAYS" Kato Kaelin and twitter mob tweets. Well, we got shut out in the 9th. So it was in hindsight the correct decision in all likelihood.

 

I was busy over the weekend so didn't really watch much of the games, only followed here and there so is there something that I missed?

 

The first was the claw back within one game where Peralta gave up 3 early then held serve. That was the Hader JJ game. I also believe he should have went to them to hold it and see where the chips fall down one in the 9th. It is a different dynamic being down 1 or 3. Who knows either way. The 2nd game was the Miley game where CC got tossed right away.

 

I conflated the games but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt there because he made the right move in all likelihood. Maybe we heavily use Hader/Jeffress to hold off the Reds and saving them was a great idea because we went out without a peep in the 9th on Friday.

[FVBrewerFan]

These conversations come up a lot in the IGT, and I always wonder if posters here think they know more about how to use Hader/JJ than the Brewers do.

 

We need to remember they take a whole lot of things into account, not just innings pitched. Appearances may be as or even more important. It's a fine line to make sure these guys are still sharp at the end of the year, while at the same time winning enough games that it matters in September. When in doubt, be safe, better than blowing out an elbow.

 

All these comments about "Hader hasn't pitched in x amount of games" are just knee-jerk reactions without having any concept of how they're trying to manage is appearances.

[JohnBriggs12]

These conversations come up a lot in the IGT, and I always wonder if posters here think they know more about how to use Hader/JJ than the Brewers do.

 

We need to remember they take a whole lot of things into account, not just innings pitched. Appearances may be as or even more important. It's a fine line to make sure these guys are still sharp at the end of the year, while at the same time winning enough games that it matters in September. When in doubt, be safe, better than blowing out an elbow.

 

All these comments about "Hader hasn't pitched in x amount of games" are just knee-jerk reactions without having any concept of how they're trying to manage is appearances.

 

The issue with Counsell is his stubborn adherence to his "rules". Whether that's shifts that don't take game situations into account inviting opponents to get tying runs to the plate by bunting, or not pulling out all the stops to beat the teams you are competing with directly for a playoff berth. All the furor about not using Hader or Jeffress when they came within a run was amplified because the opponent was the Cardinals who are competing with the Brewers for not just the wild card but the division. It's the manager,'s job to give his team the best chance to win the meaningful games. Rest players in games of lesser consequence not against the Cards or Cubs.

[FVBrewerFan]

These conversations come up a lot in the IGT, and I always wonder if posters here think they know more about how to use Hader/JJ than the Brewers do.

 

We need to remember they take a whole lot of things into account, not just innings pitched. Appearances may be as or even more important. It's a fine line to make sure these guys are still sharp at the end of the year, while at the same time winning enough games that it matters in September. When in doubt, be safe, better than blowing out an elbow.

 

All these comments about "Hader hasn't pitched in x amount of games" are just knee-jerk reactions without having any concept of how they're trying to manage is appearances.

 

The issue with Counsell is his stubborn adherence to his "rules". Whether that's shifts that don't take game situations into account inviting opponents to get tying runs to the plate by bunting, or not pulling out all the stops to beat the teams you are competing with directly for a playoff berth. All the furor about not using Hader or Jeffress when they came within a run was amplified because the opponent was the Cardinals who are competing with the Brewers for not just the wild card but the division. It's the manager,'s job to give his team the best chance to win the meaningful games. Rest players in games of lesser consequence not against the Cards or Cubs.

 

They don't need to panic like fans do. At the time, there was what roughly 40 games left in the season? (And lots of people here have been acting like these were life and death decisions months ago.) Hader doesn't need to pitch in a game they're losing at this point in the season. Come September vs the Cubs I have no doubt CC will use Hader in a game they're down by a run if he's rested. A baseball season is a long marathon, and if they want to be sure Hader/JJ are ready to go full speed ahead in September/ October, that works for me.

[LouisEly]

The run differential suggests a 83 win pace while they are actually on a 88 win pace. CC has done a fantastic job with this roster.

Run differential/pythagoreanW/L is a very flawed stat. Does not take into account pulling starters when ahead/behind big, position players pitching, etc. - it assumes that the team is putting it's best players on the field at all times, and that's not even remotely the case. A team could have four really great starters but if they have a horrible 5th starter or bad replacement for a guy who goes on the DL temporarily and get crushed those games it will show a poor run differential.

[Ennder]

I still don't get why people think the team has struggled since May. They had one bad 9 game stretch. They were fine before it and fine after it. At some point you are going to have a cruddy stretch, every team goes through it. From June 1st through July 10th they were 19-15. From July 23rd until today they are 14-12. The struggle was a 9 game stretch in mid July and CC had very little blame in that stretch imo.

[FVBrewerFan]

I still don't get why people think the team has struggled since May. They had one bad 9 game stretch. They were fine before it and fine after it. At some point you are going to have a cruddy stretch, every team goes through it. From June 1st through July 10th they were 19-15. From July 23rd until today they are 14-12. The struggle was a 9 game stretch in mid July and CC had very little blame in that stretch imo.

 

They were 2-5 on the road trip before the last game, that's all it takes around here. No blue, all true.

[homer]

I still don't get why people think the team has struggled since May. They had one bad 9 game stretch. They were fine before it and fine after it. At some point you are going to have a cruddy stretch, every team goes through it. From June 1st through July 10th they were 19-15. From July 23rd until today they are 14-12. The struggle was a 9 game stretch in mid July and CC had very little blame in that stretch imo.

 

They were 2-5 on the road trip before the last game, that's all it takes around here. No blue, all true.

 

I mean they're in a playoff race in mid/late August. Things get tense. It's understandable. What I don't understand is when people chicken little in May over a bad road trip.

[bill hAll Star]

I understand everyone's points from the most upset to the most supportive of CC. He's not a BAD manager by any stretch. I just wonder how much some moves have cost us. That Cubs game does stand out for me also. That was a head scratching move. Between that, and the StL game one, I think with those both being losses that completely compounded the thoughts many of us had. I know for me it clouded any good he did prior.

 

Of course we are still in the race, and it's a jumbled race at the top in the NL. I just hope he makes sense and doesn't let JJ and Hader waste away mostly unused as we slide down the standings page further and further. It's go time now.

 

Which STL game are you talking about?

 

On Friday, Peralta lost the game in the 3rd inning essentially.

 

On Saturday, the Brewers were behind 0-3 going into the 8th. They scored 2 runs. It was 2-3 and he left Lyles out there to the "OMG HADER/JEFFRESS HAVEN'T PITCHED IN 10 DAYS" Kato Kaelin and twitter mob tweets. Well, we got shut out in the 9th. So it was in hindsight the correct decision in all likelihood.

 

I was busy over the weekend so didn't really watch much of the games, only followed here and there so is there something that I missed?

 

The first was the claw back within one game where Peralta gave up 3 early then held serve. That was the Hader JJ game. I also believe he should have went to them to hold it and see where the chips fall down one in the 9th. It is a different dynamic being down 1 or 3. Who knows either way. The 2nd game was the Miley game where CC got tossed right away.

 

Anyone want to come on here and pat CC on the back for saving some Hader/Jeffress innings over the weekend for use in a close victory last night instead of using them in a game that they very, very likely would've lost anyways because we were desperate/mad? I highly doubt it would ever happen but just giving everyone the opportunity.

[FVBrewerFan]

Anyone want to come on here and pat CC on the back for saving some Hader/Jeffress innings over the weekend for use in a close victory last night instead of using them in a game that they very, very likely would've lost anyways because we were desperate/mad? I highly doubt it would ever happen but just giving everyone the opportunity.

 

Actually, they were both used in the 2-1 win vs the Cards on Sunday as well. Counsel must be crazy to use them in two close wins instead of a probable loss.

[bill hAll Star]

Anyone want to come on here and pat CC on the back for saving some Hader/Jeffress innings over the weekend for use in a close victory last night instead of using them in a game that they very, very likely would've lost anyways because we were desperate/mad? I highly doubt it would ever happen but just giving everyone the opportunity.

 

Actually, they were both used in the 2-1 win vs the Cards on Sunday as well. Counsel must be crazy to use them in two close wins instead of a probable loss.

 

Yes, I was not suggesting they were not used at all. I meant that the Friday game everyone wanted them to pitch that they wouldn't have mounted the comeback in might've added up with the Sunday game and made them completely unavailable for Monday's close victory.

[FVBrewerFan]

Anyone want to come on here and pat CC on the back for saving some Hader/Jeffress innings over the weekend for use in a close victory last night instead of using them in a game that they very, very likely would've lost anyways because we were desperate/mad? I highly doubt it would ever happen but just giving everyone the opportunity.

 

Actually, they were both used in the 2-1 win vs the Cards on Sunday as well. Counsel must be crazy to use them in two close wins instead of a probable loss.

 

Yes, I was not suggesting they were not used at all. I meant that the Friday game everyone wanted them to pitch that they wouldn't have mounted the comeback in might've added up with the Sunday game and made them completely unavailable for Monday's close victory.

 

Yes, that's what I was saying. Just expanding on your point that not only was last night's game a better use for them, they were used in the Sunday win as well. (As opposed to a likely loss the day before.)

[bigredrobbo]

IGTs have become unbearable recently, both for the constant references to CC's (mis)management, or the hounding of posters who DARE to venture a different take than those with the pitchfork and torches. Before anything happens, it's "what is CC thinking?". If it's a bad result, the told-you-so's come flying. If good, we win IN SPITE of CC. It's just gotten so old.

 

Every manager does and says things some fans hate. Go on the Cubs boards when Maddon gets "creative" and it doesn't work. Not much love there - and he at least "won" them a WS! Long story short, he deserves less of the credit than the players when they win, and less of the blame than the players when they lose. He seems to foster a pretty good clubhouse from what I can tell - and again, I have as much insight as anyone else here about that. It's mostly lazy scapegoating to fill that need that it seems sports fans - humanity in general, really - needs, sadly...

[YelichPosse]

I created this thread with the idea of discussing the bullpen management, and all that fun stuff. And we have done just that. I appreciate an honest conversation, not a full nonsense mud slinging match. I really wanted to know what people thought about his styling and his usage, and come to find out its not as pitchfork and torch mentality as the IGT's have been lol. As a long time fan, I just want for once, to have a fun postseason. Which as Brewer fans know, that means a lot of ledges talked off of, and heartbreak is usually immanent. Alas I remain hopeful , and just want every decision to be made correctly. I know that's not possible but that is what we all want... and leads to healthy venting. Makes us fanatics or in short, fans. Appreciate you fellas humoring me !

[homer]

Baseball America names Counsell best manager in the NL:

 

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/2018-mlb-best-tools/

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