How Much Blame Does CC Deserve Since May?

[YelichPosse]

Ok, so through IGT's and discussions ... a common theme is Counsell's handling of the pen... his lineups and all that jazz.

 

My question is... THIS YEAR... here and now.... how much is the club's struggles since May attributed to the way he has managed the pen, starters, lineups, etc.

 

We have talented pieces, but are they being used correctly?

 

This isn't about what we have or don't have, I want to know how much blame ya'll think he should receive for how he handles what is here and now.

 

I think a game like last night was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. You just can't get within one run. Leave a mediocre pitcher out there (who let 2 on the inning before even) with a completely rested pen - off days, and minimal usage the last week.... I think there is NO EXCUSE for that. This isn't the first time either... that's the problem I have. I said in the IGT last night CC has maybe cost us 4-5 games. Yes I know it's hard to know outcomes, but just from our view as fans... letting rust accumulate, not holding deficits to 1 run ... it's maddening.

 

How much blame is CC's?

[Pugger]

Usually when things go great or south it all will be at the feet of the manager. He is the one who hires his staff, creates his daily lineup and gets on the phone to the bullpen. CC changes his lineup more often than I change my socks. And he is averse to getting more than one guy up in the bullpen at a time. He will bring in a guy and sometimes it is evident after a couple of batters his choice of pitcher just doesn't have it that day. By the time he gets somebody up the bases are loaded and/or the opposition has 2+ runs in. If he had another guy up he could bring him in before things get out of hand. I get frustrated yelling at the television telling CC to get somebody up and tossing while the other team is hammering the ball all over the diamond.

[JosephC]

Counsell did have a terrible week IMO.

 

But in all honesty I don't think the bullpen management hadn't been that bad until the last couple of weeks. There was a point earlier where Hader and Jeffress were on a pace to rack up too many innings and Counsell wisely starting limiting their usage. Jeffress had 29 innings and Hader had 33 innings by the end of May...so were on pace for nearly or over 90 innings which is way too much. Counsell did a pretty good job getting those numbers down to reasonable levels (generally I think the better relievers should be right around 75 innings). Now Hader is on pace for 76 innings, Jeffress and Jennings are on pace for 74 innings and innings for the rest of the guys shouldn't even be a concern. Lyles should have not been in the game in the 8th inning yesterday.

 

Another recent move that really bothered me was using Chacin as a pinch hitter to lead off an inning, and if I'm not mistaken the Brewers ended that game with Thames and Arcia never getting off the bench (please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

But at the same time, there is a lot about this roster I don't like. The starting pitching has not been good since the All-Star break and while folks can question whether Peralta should be in the rotation or not...the bottom line is that Guerra has been totally hit and miss lately and Anderson has slid to less that mediocre levels. When looking at Miley's peripherals, I think an big implosion is imminent. The pathetic offensive production from the bottom of the order led to Stearns just grabbing bats and forcing Counsell to put a questionable looking, patchwork type defense together which probably isn't helping the starting pitching. For the record, I still think the Brewers have a 50/50 chance of getting a wild card spot if the starting pitching returns to just a "decent" level. But if they continue to sink, the roster construction will have way more to do with it than anything else.

[YelichPosse]

I do agree about the offense in the lower half of the order. Also about the random pieces thrown at the wall and see what sticks.

 

Yes Hader and JJ were on pace for high innings counts. But do you guys think he went TOO MUCH in the other direction now? Requiring us to be ahead really handicaps us doing what we have done well this year - come from behind.

 

Earlier in the year we came from behind a lot because he used JJ and Hader in more spots.

 

Lately, not so much. Rallies come up short then the other team answers back and that’s that.

 

I think that’s where my issue lies.

 

And in no way do I ‘hate’ CC or think he’s all to blame but the lack of sense making in the pen is what really cooked my goose!

[MrTPlush]

The worst part is even when he explains his reasoning it still doesn’t make sense. First off he is determined not to use Hader or Jeffress when losing. Two problems:

 

1) First off that still doesn’t explain why you try to suck two innings out of Lyles. It doesn’t explain why no one else was ever warming up until the game was essentially over.

 

2) Sure, that was a decent bullpen strategy when we were winning a lot. Because we were leading in the late innings more than we could use either of them anyway. Now we are closer to .500 baseball and are going a week at a time without using these guys! Why?! At some point we can’t just wait for leads once a week!

[YelichPosse]

The worst part is even when he explains his reasoning it still doesn’t make sense. First off he is determined not to use Hader or Jeffress when losing. Two problems:

 

1) First off that still doesn’t explain why you try to suck two innings out of Lyles. It doesn’t explain why no one else was ever warming up until the game was essentially over.

 

2) Sure, that was a decent bullpen strategy when we were winning a lot. Because we were leading in the late innings more than we could use either of them anyway. Now we are closer to .500 baseball and are going a week at a time without using these guys! Why?! At some point we can’t just wait for leads once a week!

 

I feel this pain too.

 

When you have relievers on the shelf for longer than a starter sits between starts ... as we have seen... that can affect effectiveness ... that florida series sticks out like a sore thumb. And that’s when the real trouble began in earnest. And it seems he got caught between 4/5 different methods to use the relievers ... as well as sticking with Knebel way way way too long.

[Boomer5]

The guy has two good pitchers in the pen now. He can’t use them for 4 innings every game.

 

Stearns gave him Lyles. He uses Lyles. Lyles shouldn’t be here.

[sveumrules]

I'm not sure what unit is used to measure Blame, so this may be somewhat inexact, but I would say the blame CC deserves from June onward is less than the credit he deserves for April/May.

 

If I had to attempt to quantify it in some regard I'd say he is currently about +12 overall in Blame, which is good. A positive score indicates less blame while a negative score indicates more blame.

[Boomer5]

Criticizing bullpen moves is pretty lame. I get that the teaching aspect of baseball can be looked at and certainly Wind Mill Eddie can get his share here and there but when a pitcher on the roster doesn’t do his job it’s really odd and lazy to go back to the manager.

[xisxisxis]

A Baseball manager is like an assistant director of a film (the person who often shoots the Titles/Credits and secondary/filler shots). The meat is the film and not the add-ons so if the Director (the players) doesn't do their job then the film is crap. If the assistant director is pretty bad, nobody really notices, and it doesn't really effect the quality of the film.

 

In my opinion, a manager has 3 main duties:

1) Set the Lineup - Counsell seems to make a few mistakes by sticking with an underachiever (Eric Sogard Waves), while keeping better options on the bench. Overall, he doesn't do it a ot and he mostly gets it right (we don't see Yelich and Cain sitting too much). What annoys the living crap out of me is the surrender lineups. Why he chooses to give up on Sunday games is just mind boggling. Sure players need rest, but why rest all of the good ones at the same time. The argument in his defense has been that other teams do it, but why are we so bad compared to the rest of baseball if they are doing the same thing? Overall I give Counsell an average on Lineups.

 

2) Pitching/double switch changes during a game - Counsell seems to really have a poor ability to evaluate whether a player has it or doesn't. Early in the season he was heavily relying on the bullpen and pulling a SP at the first sign of trouble (which was often the first baserunner starting in the 6th inning). Yet when a RP walks the bases loaded in a high leverage situation, we get the vacant stare and maybe, maybe a call to get someone up in the bullpen. Overall, though the mistakes are not that major and there aren't that many of them. I am more concerned with the weird rules about bullpen usage, especially with off days and the team struggling to actually get a lead. It's almost as if he can't process more than 1 data input at a time... He isn't awful and he isn't great. Overall he overused the bullpen early on and is way under utilizing the good players the 2nd half, mostly based on some really weird conditionals. Average.

 

3) Keeping the players engaged/upbeat - by all accounts he hasn't lost the clubhouse and the team appears to be positive and hasn't given up. Good.

 

He's just another former player (a pretty average to bad one) that over-values players just like him and doesn't understand the difference between a player like him and a player with real talent. He makes pretty standard decisions and like many managers who try to apply analytics often doesn't get it right as he just doesn't really understand the fundamentals. While I complain about plenty of decisions, baseball is stuck with the need to continue to run out former players who seem to have the right, historic qualities, and in the end Counsell is just like the hundreds of others with the same resume. Even heavy analytics teams haven't abandoned the former player model for manager so I doubt we see much movement in that area for years to come. Therefore, Counsell is no worse than RRR, or Ned Yost, or most past/current managers and unfortunately, not much better.

 

Short answer to long post: 10%

[LouisEly]

The second game of the Cubs mini-series bugs me more than yesterday. You're playing the team you need to beat the most, you had a starter go seven innings the day before with an off day the day before that and a day off the next day. You can empty the bullpen this game perhaps more than any other game on the schedule (except for the day before the All-Star break), and when your starter struggles through three... and the pitcher spot comes up in the fourth with two men on base... you stick with the pitcher for the at-bat and he gives up a couple more runs the next inning. Now down 7-2, game out of reach, when Hader hasn't pitched in four days.

 

That to me is the inexcusable game.

[3and2Fastball]

I think Counsell has done a great job as manager. He makes a few strange moves but what manager doesn't?

 

The one thing I would blame Counsell for is giving up on Villar. It could be argued by some that giving up on Villar wasn't a mistake. I think it was (based at least on what I've seen and my very limited understanding of Villar's work ethic and attitude in the clubhouse. i.e. I could be wrong). Also, I could be wrong about Counsell giving up on Villar, for all I know Stearns told him not to play Villar.

[YelichPosse]

I do agree with a lot of the points here. And not saying it’s all his fault or blaming him for everything. That would be silly. But I wonder how much some questionable decisions have affected the team as a whole. It was mentioned he may have lost the clubhouse. That’s interesting to me as you battle back and get within one run. You basically continue on like it’s a 3 run deficit and a low chance to win. I would get dishesteened as a player. It’s human nature and momentum is a very real thing in baseball. Good teams have gone bad quick and kept getting worse because of negative momentum. Just like good ones have gotten hot and ridden that all the way when nobody thought it was possible.

 

This is a fantastic discussion and why I posed the question as I did. I really am honestly curious what everyone else feels about this.

 

I see some think he’s done great and some think horrible. Every manager has their warts. I guess I was just really hoping for once we would get that awesome manager that makes fantastic moves we all can be excited about. And yes I know - those are super rare!!

 

Success in April and May stemmed from him using Hader and JJ a lot. But now he went away from that. So him making those moves and getting credit there almost seemed to have detracted from the rest of the year. Almost set us on a course for disaster. I mean you cant totally blame him based on the roster build. However ... a more consistent use of the pen, perhaps would have led to a better position right now in the standings instead of us dive bombing here.

 

There are big games ahead and lots of time left still to right the ship. I just don’t know if I trust him to manage the pen correctly to save our season. That’s where I’m at.

[Jopal78]

The errors,walks, misplays aren’t Counsel’s fault. A manager is a genius when winning and an idiot when losing, but it’s the players who dictate the outcome of the game with their throwing, hitting, catching and pitching.

[nate82]

Bullpen management is not going to matter if they are struggling to score more than 2 runs a game.

 

This team really needs a good Santana hitting like he was last year.

 

Braun is basically useless unless playing the Cubs or some AAAA pitcher.

 

Can we just DL Braun until we play the Cubs again?

[jerichoholicninja]

Bullpen management is not going to matter if they are struggling to score more than 2 runs a game.

 

This team really needs a good Santana hitting like he was last year.

 

Braun is basically useless unless playing the Cubs or some AAAA pitcher.

 

Can we just DL Braun until we play the Cubs again?

 

100% this, the offense has been terrible all year. Every 5 games or so they bust out and you think things will get on track but then they'll score 8 total runs over a week and get some good pitching in a few of those games and win some to stick around .500. He's really bungled some stuff but a lot of those bunglings wouldn't be noticeable if the offense was at least league average.

[YelichPosse]

Bullpen management is not going to matter if they are struggling to score more than 2 runs a game.

 

This team really needs a good Santana hitting like he was last year.

 

Braun is basically useless unless playing the Cubs or some AAAA pitcher.

 

Can we just DL Braun until we play the Cubs again?

 

100% this, the offense has been terrible all year. Every 5 games or so they bust out and you think things will get on track but then they'll score 8 total runs over a week and get some good pitching in a few of those games and win some to stick around .500. He's really bungled some stuff but a lot of those bunglings wouldn't be noticeable if the offense was at least league average.

 

The last month or so , haven’t we been scoring like 4.5 runs a game? It seems it’s been the pitching side lately. Mainly the pen. And that may have been from misuse. I don’t know. Just trying to make sense of it. Something we may never be able to do lol.

[Pugger]

Bullpen management is not going to matter if they are struggling to score more than 2 runs a game.

 

This team really needs a good Santana hitting like he was last year.

 

Braun is basically useless unless playing the Cubs or some AAAA pitcher.

 

Can we just DL Braun until we play the Cubs again?

 

100% this, the offense has been terrible all year. Every 5 games or so they bust out and you think things will get on track but then they'll score 8 total runs over a week and get some good pitching in a few of those games and win some to stick around .500. He's really bungled some stuff but a lot of those bunglings wouldn't be noticeable if the offense was at least league average.

 

This offense is just like past seasons even with the addition of Yelich and Cain. We can't manufacture runs to save our life. Even if we get runners on base with less that 2 outs we rarely if ever get any of these runners across the plate.

[Pugger]

http://milwaukee.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2018/08/18/if-you-never-use-hader-did-he-really-happen-hader-jerffress-counsell-lyles-norris-wong/

[LouisEly]

While overall Stearns has done a very good job, he has to take some of the blame as well. He seems to still be in "nugget mining mode" with the acquisitions of Lyles, Hernandez, and Thompson when (arguably) they'd be better served with Barnes (yes, he's better than Lyles and right now - not long term, but right now - is better than Burnes), another LHRP (QT-C, Ramirez) to call up for the appropriate series/matchups, and another starter (so Peralta can work on what he needs to in the minors).

 

He didn't get a catcher. He didn't get a SP. Ramos and Fiers would have cost very little, and that's on Stearns, not Counsell. Counsell has to play what he has in the dugout.

 

I still think that if Stearns had packaged Ortiz, Medeiros, and Carmona together they could have gotten a very good SP - not deGrom or Syndergaard, but a very good SP who could have helped keep them in games.

[JimH5]

I think he only deserves blame if the players are grousing. With the atypical lineups and roster construction and frequent roster moves, he's got to keep everyone on the same page.

 

As far as bullpen management goes, he's only responsible for keeping guys as fresh as possible. And I think he's been okay with that.

[Boomer5]

The run differential suggests a 83 win pace while they are actually on a 88 win pace. CC has done a fantastic job with this roster.

[bill hAll Star]

I think Counsell has mostly managed the bullpen well. I am generally on board only using Hader and Jeffress with leads.

 

I think people like to be mad just to be mad (and understandably we were on a terrible bad streak on Saturday).

 

"Use Hader and Jeffress! We haven't used them for a week [on Saturday night]" - A lot of people like to use hindsight 20/20 when making other criticisms...well, we didn't score in the 9th inning. Lyles gave up 2 runs getting left in for too long but in hindsight, we wouldn't have won no matter what. So that worked out correctly. Didn't use Hader/Jeffress, didn't have to.

 

The one complaint I did have was the Cubs game. Guerra was at 47 pitches through 3 but we had our chance to strike in that game and instead let Guerra bat and end the inning, remaining down 4-2. The bullpen was rested going into that so I'd have pinch hit Aguilar and taken our chance to try to tie/take the lead there.

 

In all, he's doing alright. I think he embraces the newer-age bullpen ball but he hasn't gone full Kapler or Rays on it yet (as seen by the Cubs game example).

 

Could be better but could be much, much worse. So I'm fine with him.

[YelichPosse]

I think Counsell has mostly managed the bullpen well. I am generally on board only using Hader and Jeffress with leads.

 

I think people like to be mad just to be mad (and understandably we were on a terrible bad streak on Saturday).

 

"Use Hader and Jeffress! We haven't used them for a week [on Saturday night]" - A lot of people like to use hindsight 20/20 when making other criticisms...well, we didn't score in the 9th inning. Lyles gave up 2 runs getting left in for too long but in hindsight, we wouldn't have won no matter what. So that worked out correctly. Didn't use Hader/Jeffress, didn't have to.

 

The one complaint I did have was the Cubs game. Guerra was at 47 pitches through 3 but we had our chance to strike in that game and instead let Guerra bat and end the inning, remaining down 4-2. The bullpen was rested going into that so I'd have pinch hit Aguilar and taken our chance to try to tie/take the lead there.

 

In all, he's doing alright. I think he embraces the newer-age bullpen ball but he hasn't gone full Kapler or Rays on it yet (as seen by the Cubs game example).

 

Could be better but could be much, much worse. So I'm fine with him.

 

 

I understand everyone's points from the most upset to the most supportive of CC. He's not a BAD manager by any stretch. I just wonder how much some moves have cost us. That Cubs game does stand out for me also. That was a head scratching move. Between that, and the StL game one, I think with those both being losses that completely compounded the thoughts many of us had. I know for me it clouded any good he did prior.

 

Of course we are still in the race, and it's a jumbled race at the top in the NL. I just hope he makes sense and doesn't let JJ and Hader waste away mostly unused as we slide down the standings page further and further. It's go time now.

[bill hAll Star]

I think Counsell has mostly managed the bullpen well. I am generally on board only using Hader and Jeffress with leads.

 

I think people like to be mad just to be mad (and understandably we were on a terrible bad streak on Saturday).

 

"Use Hader and Jeffress! We haven't used them for a week [on Saturday night]" - A lot of people like to use hindsight 20/20 when making other criticisms...well, we didn't score in the 9th inning. Lyles gave up 2 runs getting left in for too long but in hindsight, we wouldn't have won no matter what. So that worked out correctly. Didn't use Hader/Jeffress, didn't have to.

 

The one complaint I did have was the Cubs game. Guerra was at 47 pitches through 3 but we had our chance to strike in that game and instead let Guerra bat and end the inning, remaining down 4-2. The bullpen was rested going into that so I'd have pinch hit Aguilar and taken our chance to try to tie/take the lead there.

 

In all, he's doing alright. I think he embraces the newer-age bullpen ball but he hasn't gone full Kapler or Rays on it yet (as seen by the Cubs game example).

 

Could be better but could be much, much worse. So I'm fine with him.

 

 

I understand everyone's points from the most upset to the most supportive of CC. He's not a BAD manager by any stretch. I just wonder how much some moves have cost us. That Cubs game does stand out for me also. That was a head scratching move. Between that, and the StL game one, I think with those both being losses that completely compounded the thoughts many of us had. I know for me it clouded any good he did prior.

 

Of course we are still in the race, and it's a jumbled race at the top in the NL. I just hope he makes sense and doesn't let JJ and Hader waste away mostly unused as we slide down the standings page further and further. It's go time now.

 

Which STL game are you talking about?

 

On Friday, Peralta lost the game in the 3rd inning essentially.

 

On Saturday, the Brewers were behind 0-3 going into the 8th. They scored 2 runs. It was 2-3 and he left Lyles out there to the "OMG HADER/JEFFRESS HAVEN'T PITCHED IN 10 DAYS" Kato Kaelin and twitter mob tweets. Well, we got shut out in the 9th. So it was in hindsight the correct decision in all likelihood.

 

I was busy over the weekend so didn't really watch much of the games, only followed here and there so is there something that I missed?