If the Brewers miss the playoffs....

[tmwiese55]

I’m sure you have a "long term-plan", and we can certainly get on board with the thought that the time to strike is not upon the organization yet

 

This is the stuff that’s interesting to me? When in your opinion long suffering fan is the time to strike?

 

The same arguments were made on this board ten+ years ago when the Braun-Fielder-Weeks-Hart group was coming up, and that core of players ultimately won less than 20 more games than they lost before the core broke up.

 

If this isn’t the “contending” Brewers team, where are the pieces coming from to put them over the top? All the pitching that is less than two years off is already here. To project players like Lutz and Turang as contributors is so speculative. In fact take a look at the archived Power 50s on this very site and look the top prospects featured there that didn’t amount to a thing: Mat Gamel, Taylor Green, Logan Schafer, Caleb Gindl, Brad Nelson etc.

 

What you see now is what they got. Is it good enough to make the wild card, we’ll see. It is so hard to win in baseball compared to the other pro sports leagues, as a fan it is annoying when your team has a golden opportunity and screws it up 3 out of the last 5 years.

 

The pieces coming to improve the pitching would be Nelson and Burnes plus the wild card of what to do with Hader. For some reason they seem down on Woodruff but he seems like he has a good chance to me. Starting rotation could be completely different and way better just next year without having to rely on the likes of Suter, Miley, Wilkerson, maybe even Davies soft tossing types.

[adambr2]

I think the loss of Nelson for 2018 ended up really being devastating. Chacin has been really the only consistent in our rotation all year which has been basically piecemealed otherwise.

 

Having Nelson at his 2017 level for this season would have been a game changer. Not only would it have pushed back the demands on the rotation, but also eaten up more innings and likely reduced the workload on the pen. I'm not going to say we would have won the division but I'd guess we'd be neck and neck with the Cubs for it with the Wild Card being a very likely fallback.

 

It is what it is, unfortunately. All we can do is hope he is 100% for all of 2019 and able to pitch at his previous level.

[A Swing and A Drive]

I’m sure you have a "long term-plan", and we can certainly get on board with the thought that the time to strike is not upon the organization yet

 

This is the stuff that’s interesting to me? When in your opinion long suffering fan is the time to strike?

 

 

This is the stuff that's interesting to me? How would you "strike" realistically?

 

Well I believe it's by acquiring a frontline, "ACE" level starting pitcher to not only help us make the playoffs but to win multiple playoff series and get to the World Series.

 

Obviously, I would say the Melvin acquiring CC Sabathia in 2008 and Zack Greinke in 2011 would qualify for this type of move. The Astros acquiring Verlander last year to win it all for the first time ever is another good example of a perfect "time to strike" that obviously paid off.

 

While we didn't reach the World Series with either of Melvin's moves, I think those moves definitely gave us a fighting chance to do so at the time.

[bill hAll Star]

 

This is the stuff that's interesting to me? How would you "strike" realistically?

 

Well I believe it's by acquiring a frontline, "ACE" level starting pitcher to not only help us make the playoffs but to win multiple playoff series and get to the World Series.

 

Obviously, I would say the Melvin acquiring CC Sabathia in 2008 and Zack Greinke in 2011 would qualify for this type of move. The Astros acquiring Verlander last year to win it all for the first time ever is another good example of a perfect "time to strike" that obviously paid off.

 

While we didn't reach the World Series with either of Melvin's moves, I think those moves definitely gave us a fighting chance to do so at the time.

 

That time will come most likely for Stearns. Maybe it's this offseason. This year I was still all for feeling it out.

 

Chris Archer just went for 3 former/current prized prospects and he's clearly nowhere near Greinke or CC's stature.

 

I was on board with Verlander thinking it was a unique salary dump type opportunity for a guy that turned it on for 2nd halves later in his career. I would guess 75+% of this board thought it was a bad move for the Brewers (hypothetically) or the Astros. Nobody could've imagined it turning out the way it did for the Astros.

 

I'm all for these moves if and when we make them. I just think there is a weird subset of fans that is all for making one giant splash move and yelling "let's gooooooo" on twitter or something and believe it is some magic "aggressive" wand that makes everything great, forgetting how many times it has crumbled franchises.

 

Mind you, we helped build Cleveland and Kansas City's dynasties (I'll call them dynasties given market size) with those trades. No thought to that. Just want to feel like we're trying to win as opposed to...also trying to win.

[adambr2]

Swing and a Drive, I don't mean to pick on you specifically because a lot of people feel this way, but some make it sound so easy. Just acquire an ace. If only it were that simple.

 

Verlander had a full no-trade clause last year and basically his choice of destination. What aces changed teams this deadline? There's no one we could have realistically obtained to replace Jimmy -- not at last months deadline anyway.

[bill hAll Star]

Swing and a Drive, I don't mean to pick on you specifically because a lot of people feel this way, but some make it sound so easy. Just acquire an ace. If only it were that simple.

 

Verlander had a full no-trade clause last year and basically his choice of destination. What aces changed teams this deadline? There's no one we could have realistically obtained to replace Jimmy -- not at last months deadline anyway.

 

I know that Swing and a Drive was a Hamels guy, which to be fair, seems to be a good change of scenery (but he's been in a bunch of advantageous situations so far in his short Cubs stint).

 

Also, there are some pitchers that people considered at least close to an ace and were imploring to trade for...Gray, Quintana, Archer, others...for a very strange reason, nobody brings those desired players up anymore as big misses. They just want the right ace to be acquired right now.

[bigredrobbo]

Swing and a Drive, I don't mean to pick on you specifically because a lot of people feel this way, but some make it sound so easy. Just acquire an ace. If only it were that simple.

 

Verlander had a full no-trade clause last year and basically his choice of destination. What aces changed teams this deadline? There's no one we could have realistically obtained to replace Jimmy -- not at last months deadline anyway.

 

Not to mention, the Cubs picked up an ace - Darvish - and turns out, unlike toasters, aces don't come with guarantees!

[adambr2]

 

This is the stuff that's interesting to me? How would you "strike" realistically?

 

Well I believe it's by acquiring a frontline, "ACE" level starting pitcher to not only help us make the playoffs but to win multiple playoff series and get to the World Series.

 

Obviously, I would say the Melvin acquiring CC Sabathia in 2008 and Zack Greinke in 2011 would qualify for this type of move. The Astros acquiring Verlander last year to win it all for the first time ever is another good example of a perfect "time to strike" that obviously paid off.

 

While we didn't reach the World Series with either of Melvin's moves, I think those moves definitely gave us a fighting chance to do so at the time.

 

That time will come most likely for Stearns. Maybe it's this offseason. This year I was still all for feeling it out.

 

Chris Archer just went for 3 former/current prized prospects and he's clearly nowhere near Greinke or CC's stature.

 

I was on board with Verlander thinking it was a unique salary dump type opportunity for a guy that turned it on for 2nd halves later in his career. I would guess 75+% of this board thought it was a bad move for the Brewers (hypothetically) or the Astros. Nobody could've imagined it turning out the way it did for the Astros.

 

I still tend to very much doubt Verlander was ever going to come here. He was completely on the fence on even going to Houston and left it up to Kate Upton, his wife, who green lighted it in the 11th hour.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/kate-upton-helped-justin-verlander-trade-astros-happen-article-1.3896774

 

Seems highly doubtful to me, given Houston is at least in a more attractive location for most players and is far ahead of where we are as a franchise, that he would have come here.

[Mudville9]

I think 2019 was the first year most people saw a competitive team a few years ago. That seemed to be the mantra. I think you will see a step up next season. Younger pitchers getting more time and lots of fairly green players with more experience under their belt. Whether it's enough with the Cubs still strong, we don't know. But I think it's a great time to be a fan.

 

I agree. I think with Nelson coming back (hopefully good Nelson), 2019 is a good year to expect a solid playoff showing. Hader, Peralta, Burns are another year older. The only huge downside is that Braun may not contribute much. Schoop should be much better next year as well.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Swing and a Drive, I don't mean to pick on you specifically because a lot of people feel this way, but some make it sound so easy. Just acquire an ace. If only it were that simple.

 

Verlander had a full no-trade clause last year and basically his choice of destination. What aces changed teams this deadline? There's no one we could have realistically obtained to replace Jimmy -- not at last months deadline anyway.

 

Not to mention, the Cubs picked up an ace - Darvish - and turns out, unlike toasters, aces don't come with guarantees!

 

Plus their 2017 trade of Quintana was hardly for an ace, and it cost them probably the top prospect in all of baseball without any Vlad Guerrero DNA. If the Mets are serious about trying to build a contender this offseason, I don't see an obvious starter available who would be considered an ace via trade.

[tmwiese55]

I think 2019 was the first year most people saw a competitive team a few years ago. That seemed to be the mantra. I think you will see a step up next season. Younger pitchers getting more time and lots of fairly green players with more experience under their belt. Whether it's enough with the Cubs still strong, we don't know. But I think it's a great time to be a fan.

 

I agree. I think with Nelson coming back (hopefully good Nelson), 2019 is a good year to expect a solid playoff showing. Hader, Peralta, Burns are another year older. The only huge downside is that Braun may not contribute much. Schoop should be much better next year as well.

 

Schoop should be better than what we've got from 2B this year. Arcia should be better than what we've got from SS. OF should roughly be the same, 3B the same. 1B should be a regression of some kind. C almost can't be worse.

 

SP should be much better with Nelson Burnes. Relief won't be as good as it was first half but it looks like that regression is already happening now. So might be able to chalk that up to roughly the same overall.

[istanbultaye]

After seeing Torts' signature in another thread: If the Brewers don't make the playoffs, someone should be banned! (But not me!)

[A Swing and A Drive]

2019 Brewers

 

Lineup

OF Christian Yelich

OF Lorenzo Cain

3B Travis Shaw

1B Jesus Aguilar

OF Ryan Braun/Eric Thames

2B Jonathan Schoop

SS Orlando Arcia

C Manny Pina/Nottingham?

 

Starting Rotation

RHP Jimmy Nelson

RHP Chase Anderson

RHP Jhoulys Chacin

RHP Freddy Peralta

RHP Corbin Burnes

 

SP Depth

RHP Junior Guerra

RHP Brandon Woodruff

RHP Zach Davies

LHP Brent Suter

RHP Jordan Lyles

RHP Jake Thompson

 

Bullpen

RHP Corey Knebel

RHP Jeremy Jeffress

LHP Josh Hader

RHP Joakim Soria

LHP Dan Jennings

RHP Taylor Williams

RHP Jacob Barnes

 

I like this team on paper (or computer screen) quite a bit.

 

The area of weakness that stands out to me is Starting Pitching. Tons of question marks IMO.

 

- Can Jimmy Nelson come back and become the 2017 version of himself? (not sure if we can count on it)

- Can youngsters Corbin Burnes and Freddy Peralta take the next steps in reaching their #2 SP potential? (think this may take a few years/risk)

- Can youngsters Taylor Williams and Jacob Barnes take another step in their development to solidify the bullpen?

- Can Orlando Arcia hit MLB pitching enough to start at SS for a playoff caliber team?

- Can Jonathan Schoop return to his 2017 form?

- Can our Catchers hit enough to not make the bottom of our lineup a black hole again?

- Can we expect Chacin to regress but Anderson to bounce bit a bit? Excepting either to pitch better than a #3 SP would be risky, IMO.

 

My take:

To be a strong Playoff contender next year the Brewers need to...

 

1. Sign a Free Agent Pitcher that could be a border-line ACE like 2017 Jimmy Nelson (Patrick Corbin for example)

2. Hope that the Mets fall out of contention before trading deadline and trade for either Syndergaard or deGrom and be willing to pay the high cost it will take even if it depletes the farm system of top talent (Huira, Ray, Woodruff, Lutz, etc)

3. Consider upgrading Catcher via free agency somehow

4. Stick with Arcia at SS and believe that his bat will come around

5. Give Travis Shaw everyday ABs at 3B and don't mess with him again with platoons/playing out of position

6. Be flexible with which RP closes out games

7. Finish the part of the rebuild where we "dumpster dive" for SP like Wade Miley, Jordan Lyles, Jake Thompson, etc.

[Boomer5]

2019 Brewers

 

Lineup

OF Christian Yelich

OF Lorenzo Cain

3B Travis Shaw

1B Jesus Aguilar

OF Ryan Braun/Eric Thames

2B Jonathan Schoop

SS Orlando Arcia

C Manny Pina/Nottingham?

 

Starting Rotation

RHP Jimmy Nelson

RHP Chase Anderson

RHP Jhoulys Chacin

RHP Freddy Peralta

RHP Corbin Burnes

 

SP Depth

RHP Junior Guerra

RHP Brandon Woodruff

RHP Zach Davies

LHP Brent Suter

RHP Jordan Lyles

RHP Jake Thompson

 

Bullpen

RHP Corey Knebel

RHP Jeremy Jeffress

LHP Josh Hader

RHP Joakim Soria

LHP Dan Jennings

RHP Taylor Williams

RHP Jacob Barnes

 

I like this team on paper (or computer screen) quite a bit.

 

The area of weakness that stands out to me is Starting Pitching. Tons of question marks IMO.

 

- Can Jimmy Nelson come back and become the 2017 version of himself? (not sure if we can count on it)

- Can youngsters Corbin Burnes and Freddy Peralta take the next steps in reaching their #2 SP potential? (think this may take a few years/risk)

- Can youngsters Taylor Williams and Jacob Barnes take another step in their development to solidify the bullpen?

- Can Orlando Arcia hit MLB pitching enough to start at SS for a playoff caliber team?

- Can Jonathan Schoop return to his 2017 form?

- Can our Catchers hit enough to not make the bottom of our lineup a black hole again?

- Can we expect Chacin to regress but Anderson to bounce bit a bit? Excepting either to pitch better than a #3 SP would be risky, IMO.

 

My take:

To be a strong Playoff contender next year the Brewers need to...

 

1. Sign a Free Agent Pitcher that could be a border-line ACE like 2017 Jimmy Nelson (Patrick Corbin for example)

2. Hope that the Mets fall out of contention before trading deadline and trade for either Syndergaard or deGrom and be willing to pay the high cost it will take even if it depletes the farm system of top talent (Huira, Ray, Woodruff, Lutz, etc)

3. Consider upgrading Catcher via free agency somehow

4. Stick with Arcia at SS and believe that his bat will come around

5. Give Travis Shaw everyday ABs at 3B and don't mess with him again with platoons/playing out of position

6. Be flexible with which RP closes out games

7. Finish the part of the rebuild where we "dumpster dive" for SP like Wade Miley, Jordan Lyles, Jake Thompson, etc.

 

I do not disagree at all with your reasoning but that looks like a lot of $$$ and even more hope.

 

I can’t see us being players for point 1 and I’m fairly sure we don’t have the ammunition to land number 2. Everything else seems reasonable though not exciting.

[bill hAll Star]

I do not disagree at all with your reasoning but that looks like a lot of $$$ and even more hope.

 

I can’t see us being players for point 1 and I’m fairly sure we don’t have the ammunition to land number 2. Everything else seems reasonable though not exciting.

 

I am by no means a huge supporter of how the Royals did it because there was some luck involved and it takes a lot of things coming together, but that team went from just missing the Wild Card to getting a Wild Card at 89 wins (and a miracle playoff run) to being a division juggernaut the following year with minimal changes. So it can happen.

 

They did acquire Cueto/Zobrist in the 2nd year, neither of which doing a whole lot. Zobrist had a nice impact but I think most would agree that 7 HR and an .818 OPS over 59 games is probably about what Moustakas will give us.

 

I'm not sure if Attanasio is pushing Stearns to the "never tank" route but I think as discussed earlier, we should be somewhere between what the Cardinals were/are and the Royals were. A farm system full of useful players that are decent for a good window of time. The Royals had flat roster of "pretty good" mid/late prime guys that got it done in only a 3-4 year window. That's the hope, I guess.

[adambr2]

So I guess another way of looking at this is, what did we do wrong in our last window? Or rather, did we not do anything wrong but simply didn't get lucky enough to take it all the way?

[Jopal78]

The Royals playoff success in 2014 and 2015 has to be viewed in context. The Red Sox has losing records in both those years and the Yankees missed the playoffs in 2014 and were a wild card in 2015. So the path through the playoffs was without the traditional big dogs

 

As applied to the Brewers, the Cubs aren’t going anywhere for the foreseeable future. Ben Zobrist is the only player of note they don’t control until 2021. In fact, they could trade Happ, Russell and Bote for a controlled SP this offseason and not miss a beat.

 

That’s just in the NL Central. The Braves and Phillies are young and both look for real, and the Dodgers (like the Yankees and Red Sox) are usually in the hunt.

 

What’s fun to muse about is in retrospect they absolutely should have signed Arrieta when they had the chance because they’d more likely than not be giving the Cubs and the rest of the NL all they can handle. Instead they’ve got their hot rod in the show but upon closer inspection there’s a lot of bondo and OEM parts

[CrewFanBrewMan69]

2019 Brewers

 

Lineup

OF Christian Yelich

OF Lorenzo Cain

3B Travis Shaw

1B Jesus Aguilar

OF Ryan Braun/Eric Thames

2B Jonathan Schoop

SS Orlando Arcia

C Manny Pina/Nottingham?

 

Starting Rotation

RHP Jimmy Nelson

RHP Chase Anderson

RHP Jhoulys Chacin

RHP Freddy Peralta

RHP Corbin Burnes

 

SP Depth

RHP Junior Guerra

RHP Brandon Woodruff

RHP Zach Davies

LHP Brent Suter

RHP Jordan Lyles

RHP Jake Thompson

 

Bullpen

RHP Corey Knebel

RHP Jeremy Jeffress

LHP Josh Hader

RHP Joakim Soria

LHP Dan Jennings

RHP Taylor Williams

RHP Jacob Barnes

 

I like this team on paper (or computer screen) quite a bit.

 

The area of weakness that stands out to me is Starting Pitching. Tons of question marks IMO.

 

- Can Jimmy Nelson come back and become the 2017 version of himself? (not sure if we can count on it)

- Can youngsters Corbin Burnes and Freddy Peralta take the next steps in reaching their #2 SP potential? (think this may take a few years/risk)

- Can youngsters Taylor Williams and Jacob Barnes take another step in their development to solidify the bullpen?

- Can Orlando Arcia hit MLB pitching enough to start at SS for a playoff caliber team?

- Can Jonathan Schoop return to his 2017 form?

- Can our Catchers hit enough to not make the bottom of our lineup a black hole again?

- Can we expect Chacin to regress but Anderson to bounce bit a bit? Excepting either to pitch better than a #3 SP would be risky, IMO.

 

My take:

To be a strong Playoff contender next year the Brewers need to...

 

1. Sign a Free Agent Pitcher that could be a border-line ACE like 2017 Jimmy Nelson (Patrick Corbin for example)

2. Hope that the Mets fall out of contention before trading deadline and trade for either Syndergaard or deGrom and be willing to pay the high cost it will take even if it depletes the farm system of top talent (Huira, Ray, Woodruff, Lutz, etc)

3. Consider upgrading Catcher via free agency somehow

4. Stick with Arcia at SS and believe that his bat will come around

5. Give Travis Shaw everyday ABs at 3B and don't mess with him again with platoons/playing out of position

6. Be flexible with which RP closes out games

7. Finish the part of the rebuild where we "dumpster dive" for SP like Wade Miley, Jordan Lyles, Jake Thompson, etc.

I like it. But I don’t think we should plan on Jimmy ever, he needs to be looked at like a lottery ticket. Also this team probably pushes $130 million in payroll. Don’t know if we go there.

[bill hAll Star]

What’s fun to muse about is in retrospect they absolutely should have signed Arrieta when they had the chance because they’d more likely than not be giving the Cubs and the rest of the NL all they can handle. Instead they’ve got their hot rod in the show but upon closer inspection there’s a lot of bondo and OEM parts

 

This is my favorite thing about these threads.

 

Nobody ever brings up the bad misses, only the hits. Just as many people wanted Cobb, Lynn, Darvish but we can bring up Arrieta in hindsight and say "hey, David...maybe you shoulda done this!."

 

Nobody mentions Stearns holding off on unloading the farm for Archer, Quintana, Gray which many were clamoring for...only that Hamels has pitched well for 3 games.

 

In fact, you say "in retrospect." I don't understand the point of these exercises.

[Boomer5]

So I guess another way of looking at this is, what did we do wrong in our last window? Or rather, did we not do anything wrong but simply didn't get lucky enough to take it all the way?

 

Braun and Fielder went away for different reasons and we drafted so poorly that not only did we not replace them (a near impossibility) we chose guys who weren’t MLB material. Of course it didn’t help that we went picking high due to the Herb Kohl style of leadership.

[tmwiese55]

So I guess another way of looking at this is, what did we do wrong in our last window? Or rather, did we not do anything wrong but simply didn't get lucky enough to take it all the way?

 

Certain part of it was just getting unlucky in 2011 that STL even made the playoffs and then were that hot. We had the better team with two better SPs and home field advantage in NLCS and WS.

 

team building mistakes would likely be not getting a better defensive SS since our O was already so loaded. Plus maybe not going 'all-in' even more and adding another mid level SP. I don't recall what specifically was feasible at the time though.

 

That and just simply not developing any of our SP. Which in our current iteration doesn't seem to be a problem with their strategy so far since they seem to be keen on holding all their key SP prospects. Now, the guys have to pan out.

[adambr2]

What’s fun to muse about is in retrospect they absolutely should have signed Arrieta when they had the chance because they’d more likely than not be giving the Cubs and the rest of the NL all they can handle. Instead they’ve got their hot rod in the show but upon closer inspection there’s a lot of bondo and OEM parts

 

This is my favorite thing about these threads.

 

Nobody ever brings up the bad misses, only the hits. Just as many people wanted Cobb, Lynn, Darvish but we can bring up Arrieta in hindsight and say "hey, David...maybe you shoulda done this!."

 

Nobody mentions Stearns holding off on unloading the farm for Archer, Quintana, Gray which many were clamoring for...only that Hamels has pitched well for 3 games.

 

In fact, you say "in retrospect." I don't understand the point of these exercises.

 

And it overlooks the hits. Many of us questioned the Cain signing -- where would we be without Cain this year?

 

I'd also like to point out that Chacin has really similar numbers to Arrieta for a fraction of the cost, and way, way better numbers than say, Tyler Chatwood, who was a big wish list item here too.

[xisxisxis]

So I guess another way of looking at this is, what did we do wrong in our last window? Or rather, did we not do anything wrong but simply didn't get lucky enough to take it all the way?

Top 3 Reasons: Pitching, Pitching, Hitting. We followed up the luckiest playoff appearance on record in 2008 (Mets record collapse + CC win streak) by replacing him with Braden Looper and a cast of stiffs with the exception of Gallardo... 2010 was another rotation to cry over and more futility. 2011 brought the big 2 acquisitions of Marcum and Greinke and finally there were 4 above average SP... leading to a playoff run... 2012 was the first season without Fielder and a collapse in SP (almost 100 more runs allowed in 2012) that masked an actually improved offense with ARam replacing MinusGhee... 2013 Hart was gone and the SP improvement was offset by huge offensive dropoff and really no batters in the system to replace the big 4/5...

 

So while the offense was good, Melvin couldn't find enough pitching and when the pitching was better the hitters were being shipped out and the offense started to drop leading to mostly futility...

[bill hAll Star]

So I guess another way of looking at this is, what did we do wrong in our last window? Or rather, did we not do anything wrong but simply didn't get lucky enough to take it all the way?

 

Braun and Fielder went away for different reasons and we drafted so poorly that not only did we not replace them (a near impossibility) we chose guys who weren’t MLB material. Of course it didn’t help that we went picking high due to the Herb Kohl style of leadership.

 

I am one that was somewhat on the bleeding edge of the dislike of the Kohl mediocrity chase and jumped off of Bucks fandom in the 2008 or so range and then finally one more time in 2011 after I gave a second chance...

 

...I would not put Attanasio anywhere in the same breath as Kohl. There's a difference between overpaying Jeff Suppan or Kyle Lohse when you have an otherwise solid MLB (top 10 team) playoff-caliber roster but zero pitching help in your minor league system than what Kohl did. Kohl had the 20th best team and signed a guy to an $80 million dollar contract to cap them out as the 15th best team with nowhere to go.

 

I get that some of the win now pressure from Attanasio has somewhat ruined their rebuild timelines/efforts, but it's not within miles of Herb Kohl.

[bill hAll Star]

So I guess another way of looking at this is, what did we do wrong in our last window? Or rather, did we not do anything wrong but simply didn't get lucky enough to take it all the way?

Top 3 Reasons: Pitching, Pitching, Hitting. We followed up the luckiest playoff appearance on record in 2008 (Mets record collapse + CC win streak) by replacing him with Braden Looper and a cast of stiffs with the exception of Gallardo... 2010 was another rotation to cry over and more futility. 2011 brought the big 2 acquisitions of Marcum and Greinke and finally there were 4 above average SP... leading to a playoff run... 2012 was the first season without Fielder and a collapse in SP (almost 100 more runs allowed in 2012) that masked an actually improved offense with ARam replacing MinusGhee... 2013 Hart was gone and the SP improvement was offset by huge offensive dropoff and really no batters in the system to replace the big 4/5...

 

So while the offense was good, Melvin couldn't find enough pitching and when the pitching was better the hitters were being shipped out and the offense started to drop leading to mostly futility...

 

Look, I'm not saying that Doug Melvin did a great job but I think people are making it sound very easy to acquire top MLB pitching with a small market payroll.

 

In hindsight (and some were saying it at the time) maybe they should've dealt Fielder for a pitcher in 2007 or 2009 and worked from there, but in your example (2011) you note that we finally got our good pitcher(s) that year. Then you mention how we had some mirage seasons after that...which probably has something to do with the fact that we gutted the top end of our farm system to get those pitchers.

 

There is a way that a team can get a good pitcher while also maintaining the offense/depth to have both...it's called being a giant market team like the Yankees and just paying for it with money. Beyond that, small market teams have to choose a path for the most part.