Brewers trade for Schoop; give up Luis Ortiz, Jean Carmona, and Jonathan Villar

[tmwiese55]

In the span of 6 weeks Villar has gone from the most hated player on this board to the most beloved.

[pacopete4]

In the span of 6 weeks Villar has gone from the most hated player on this board to the most beloved.

 

I enjoyed Villars time as a Brewer. Always was in his corner because you can see the talent there. It’s disappointing that the Brewers couldn’t get through to him and get him producing for the crew. You can probably add him to the list of guys that are productive elsewhere.

 

That being said, I’m good with the trade.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I don't care that Villar went to the Orioles and is suddenly tearing it up. For whatever reason, he wasn't doing that here. He wasn't going to do it here. Sometimes some people need that proverbial "change of scenery". There's nothing wrong with that. Jean Segura was lost here. He's doing great in Seattle, and I'm happy as heck for the guy. I have no doubt that no amount of grinding, coaching, or anything else was gong to work for him here in Milwaukee. Sometimes it just happens. Who knows why? But that's how it is.

[stoutdude04]

In the span of 6 weeks Villar has gone from the most hated player on this board to the most beloved.

 

Some thought Villar got a raw deal.

 

I personally didnt think Schoop was as good as his 'mvp' type season and didnt think Villar was as bad as he was last year, but cant do anything about that now.

[TURBO]

For whatever reason, Counsell was done with Villar. He had to go, there was no getting around it. I wish him nothing but the best.

[Roderick]

For whatever reason, Counsell was done with Villar. He had to go, there was no getting around it. I wish him nothing but the best.

 

This is my take also. Villar was healthy and Counsell wasn't playing him.

[MrTPlush]

For whatever reason, Counsell was done with Villar. He had to go, there was no getting around it. I wish him nothing but the best.

 

So what? That doesn't matter. It constantly gets brought up as like some kind o free pass if he excels elsewhere. Someone is to blame if he hits similar to Schoop or better. If we traded him because he was in the doghouse that seems to make it even worse if he does better after he leaves.

 

So far this trade has been pretty brutal to look at...I think over the next year it gets closer to a shrug your shoulder wash...but so far, yikes.

[coolhandluke121]

I hated Villar's decision-making as much as anyone, but you have to try to be objective about the value he adds to a team. Right now he has 26 steals this year and has only been caught 4 times, and he's hitting better than Schoop. I desperately wanted to trade him after his career year, but the Brewers did the exact opposite and sold low. Consider his splits against LHP's this year, not to mention playing Shaw at 2B and Hernan at SS, it was one of the few moves they've made over the last 2 years that I really, really don't like. Even Villar's defense was on par with Schoop's. He has made small but important incremental improvements since falling apart last year.

 

Errors and TOOTBLAN's are frustrating because Villar could be so much better without them, but in the end his net value is pretty close to Schoop's at a much cheaper price. You can't have biases against mistake-prone players if the end result is comparable in terms of value added. I could have lived with Villar and Carmona but even that would be kind of a pointless move, all things considered.

 

Schoop's lucky he hit that grand slam against Bumgarner and he better have a good year next year.

[tmwiese55]

Yea I've generally been on the Villar side here as everyone bashed him the last couple years. I just find it funny that it's been two years of bashing him but now everyone loves him (though of course nature of boards it's tough to know who's who and make consensus statements like that). He had his hot streak last year somewhere around August too and was going well. Then he misplayed that ball in CF and was in the doghouse the rest of the year again. Then couldn't get consistent PT this year. I just wanted to play the guy and let him play freely and see what happened. If anything I'd blame some of this on the hitting coach yet again, likely got in his head too much emphasizing playing slap hitting style. But of course who knows. I think I'm ready to move on from Coles though.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I hated Villar's decision-making as much as anyone, but you have to try to be objective about the value he adds to a team. Right now he has 26 steals this year and has only been caught 4 times, and he's hitting better than Schoop. I desperately wanted to trade him after his career year, but the Brewers did the exact opposite and sold low. Consider his splits against LHP's this year, not to mention playing Shaw at 2B and Hernan at SS, it was one of the few moves they've made over the last 2 years that I really, really don't like. Even Villar's defense was on par with Schoop's. He has made small but important incremental improvements since falling apart last year.

 

Errors and TOOTBLAN's are frustrating because Villar could be so much better without them, but in the end his net value is pretty close to Schoop's at a much cheaper price. You can't have biases against mistake-prone players if the end result is comparable in terms of value added. I could have lived with Villar and Carmona but even that would be kind of a pointless move, all things considered.

 

Schoop's lucky he hit that grand slam against Bumgarner and he better have a good year next year.

 

Again, vacuum. You aren't taking into account that Villar was hurt at the time of the deal, and was barely playing before that, and that Counsell likely wasn't going to reverse course. I think they made the decision that Villar was not part of their future plans, and were probably lucky to be able to get some value out of him before dumping him for nothing at the end of this season. Yes, you can look at the numbers, and on the surface the deal appears very questionable. But you know there were more factors at play besides Villar's stats. Sometimes you just gotta move a guy, regardless of his potential future value.

[sveumrules]

Someone is to blame if he hits similar to Schoop or better. If we traded him because he was in the doghouse that seems to make it even worse if he does better after he leaves.

 

So far this trade has been pretty brutal to look at...I think over the next year it gets closer to a shrug your shoulder wash...but so far, yikes.

 

If a guy with a 95 career OPS+ outhits a guy with a 98 career OPS+ over the course of 100-150 plate appearances, no one is to blame. That is just baseball happening.

[MrTPlush]

Someone is to blame if he hits similar to Schoop or better. If we traded him because he was in the doghouse that seems to make it even worse if he does better after he leaves.

 

So far this trade has been pretty brutal to look at...I think over the next year it gets closer to a shrug your shoulder wash...but so far, yikes.

 

If a guy with a 95 career OPS+ outhits a guy with a 98 career OPS+ over the course of 100-150 plate appearances, no one is to blame. That is just baseball happening.

 

I am referring to the next year too. Then someone is to blame because it seems we went wrong somewhere if that happens. I don't care about the last 100 ABs, that is why I mentioned I think they look a lot more similar after the end of next year to where we don't care that much.

[pacopete4]

Someone is to blame if he hits similar to Schoop or better. If we traded him because he was in the doghouse that seems to make it even worse if he does better after he leaves.

 

So far this trade has been pretty brutal to look at...I think over the next year it gets closer to a shrug your shoulder wash...but so far, yikes.

 

If a guy with a 95 career OPS+ outhits a guy with a 98 career OPS+ over the course of 100-150 plate appearances, no one is to blame. That is just baseball happening.

 

Why are we trading for a player that is so similar in production then? I mean we gave up a decent prospect arm in the return.

[istanbultaye]

Someone is to blame if he hits similar to Schoop or better. If we traded him because he was in the doghouse that seems to make it even worse if he does better after he leaves.

 

So far this trade has been pretty brutal to look at...I think over the next year it gets closer to a shrug your shoulder wash...but so far, yikes.

 

If a guy with a 95 career OPS+ outhits a guy with a 98 career OPS+ over the course of 100-150 plate appearances, no one is to blame. That is just baseball happening.

 

Why are we trading for a player that is so similar in production then? I mean we gave up a decent prospect arm in the return.

 

That's why people aren't liking the trade. I didn't really like it, but I'm not going to feel any worse about it due to Schoop's slow start. His recent play has been good to see, and hopefully he can keep it up.

[homer]

At the end of the day, this trade was as much about next year as this year. Brewers saw no future with Villar so they traded him for a guy who can play 2B for a year until Hiura is hopefully ready.

[TURBO]

For whatever reason, Counsell was done with Villar. He had to go, there was no getting around it. I wish him nothing but the best.

 

So what? That doesn't matter. It constantly gets brought up as like some kind o free pass if he excels elsewhere. Someone is to blame if he hits similar to Schoop or better. If we traded him because he was in the doghouse that seems to make it even worse if he does better after he leaves.

 

So far this trade has been pretty brutal to look at...I think over the next year it gets closer to a shrug your shoulder wash...but so far, yikes.

 

I agree, no argument here...

 

Not a free pass, just a fact. CC was no longer interested in playing him, for whatever reason. He wasn't going to do squat for us sitting on the bench day in and day out, so trading him for something was our best bet.

 

Was Schoop the guy to get? That is debatable.

[timpep]

 

Not a free pass, just a fact. CC was no longer interested in playing him, for whatever reason. He wasn't going to do squat for us sitting on the bench day in and day out, so trading him for something was our best bet.

 

Was Schoop the guy to get? That is debatable.

 

Has there ever been an explanation for this? I feel like if this is really truly the case counsel should have to answer some questions about it.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Not a free pass, just a fact. CC was no longer interested in playing him, for whatever reason. He wasn't going to do squat for us sitting on the bench day in and day out, so trading him for something was our best bet.

 

Was Schoop the guy to get? That is debatable.

 

Has there ever been an explanation for this? I feel like if this is really truly the case counsel should have to answer some questions about it.

 

I suppose with all his mistakes, you could argue that you have to bench a player who won't listen or you risk losing your authority. Can't have guys doing whatever they want out there. My problem is that even with his mistakes, Villar is almost as valuable as Schoop for their respective careers. The Brewers had Shaw/Villar at 2b against RHP's and Villar/Perez against LHP's. They had Saladino for defense. Villar's defense was okay. Schoop will make much more than Villar next year, and Ortiz is not exactly a throw-in prospect. The argument about playing Schoop at SS doesn't hold water because Villar played a serviceable SS at the major league level for a full season, which is far more than Schoop has ever done.

 

Schoop does have more upside. Villar's never going to have a year like Schoop did last year. But if Schoop continues to stay within 25% of his career production this year and next, this trade is looking like a clear loss for the Brewers.

[monty57]

I get the Schoop trade, and to some degree I get the Moose trade. I just don't get doing both the Schoop trade and the Moose trade. We're often told that it's hard to get into any kind of rhythm with sporadic playing time, but our roster is set so that everyone on the roster except Cain and Yelich are basically guaranteed sporadic playing time.

 

I invest money for a living. Different sectors do well at different times, but they generally perform to their averages over time. Two of the main reasons people generally fail to match the markets are chasing the hot sector/security, and market timing.

 

I believe that for the most part, this is also true in baseball. With all the data at our fingertips, we generally know which players are better than others, so the best thing to do is generally to put the best guys in the lineup and ride out the highs and lows. As soon as you think someone is never going to produce, they start hitting and vice versa. Over 162 games, most guys will end up somewhere around where you expected going into the season.

 

Unless there is an injury or some other factor, trying to determine when a player will be hot and when he will be cold seems to me to be a lot like chasing the hot sector and/or timing the market. The makeup of the Brewer roster kind of turns Counsell into a market timer, trying to decide which of his group of good hitters to play and which to sit on any given day, certainly with some emphasis on "who's hot." To me, this seems likely to cause the total offensive production to be less than the sum of its parts look like it should provide, much like the "average investor" almost always failing to perform as well as most/any of the individual sectors.

[Devinep]

At the end of the day, this trade was as much about next year as this year. Brewers saw no future with Villar so they traded him for a guy who can play 2B for a year until Hiura is hopefully ready.

 

But is he even going to be worth the 10 million or so he’ll get? Likely not. He isn’t versatile (just Brewer versatile apparently) and has hit poorly since he’s come over. Better off going into FA and getting Marwin gonzalez or Escobar, players who can move to SS after Huira comes up (they’ve also both outhit Schoop this year)

[tmwiese55]

At the end of the day, this trade was as much about next year as this year. Brewers saw no future with Villar so they traded him for a guy who can play 2B for a year until Hiura is hopefully ready.

 

But is he even going to be worth the 10 million or so he’ll get? Likely not. He isn’t versatile (just Brewer versatile apparently) and has hit poorly since he’s come over. Better off going into FA and getting Marwin gonzalez or Escobar, players who can move to SS after Huira comes up (they’ve also both outhit Schoop this year)

 

you'd likely have to give multi-year commitments for tens of millions to those guys as opposed just a 1 year commitment to Schoop.

 

ETA: I've also had Marwan in fantasy this year. Major disappointment year for him. But his versatility is just crazy.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

At the end of the day, this trade was as much about next year as this year. Brewers saw no future with Villar so they traded him for a guy who can play 2B for a year until Hiura is hopefully ready.

 

But is he even going to be worth the 10 million or so he’ll get? Likely not. He isn’t versatile (just Brewer versatile apparently) and has hit poorly since he’s come over. Better off going into FA and getting Marwin gonzalez or Escobar, players who can move to SS after Huira comes up (they’ve also both outhit Schoop this year)

 

you'd likely have to give multi-year commitments to those guys as opposed just a 1 year commitment to Schoop.

 

And depending on if they feel Arcia is the SS of the present and future, you would be talking a pretty sizable contract for Gonzalez or Escobar to be a utility infielder. Having Schoop back for next year actually works out terrifically time wise with Hiura. This way there won't be the pressure to bring him up to start the year next year.

[jerichoholicninja]

Through July 31 the Brewers scored 4.35 runs per game. Since then 4.94 runs per game. Team OPS was about .720 before July 31 and about .780 since (didn't have time to run the exact numbers). The offense sucked the first half, no way around it. Since getting Moose and Schoop the offense has been much better. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but it's not like anyone was missing due to injury before. Frankly, I don't think Stearns gave up anyone of great value for either of those two and seemed to fix what has been the crappiest part of the team for the last two years.

[NievesNoNO]

Is it just me or does this thread pick up every time there's a loss?? I think both sides of the argument have some merit. I agree that Villar fell out of favor; he really did make bone headed mistakes on the bases. I have to believe that was part of the issue. I mean 3 years of watching the same mistakes gets old. In a vacuum, I will also agree that those mistakes don't much matter when comparing two players in terms of total value.

 

There's always alternatives based on decisions. I don't think anybody is without criticism. So, I have no doubt there were other options or things could've played out differently. The best part about the trade for this season is Schoop's bat is capable of carrying a team in stretches/ series' if he gets hot. Whether or not that happens this year I don't know but that's something I don't think Villar could provide.

[MrTPlush]

I agree, no argument here...

 

Not a free pass, just a fact. CC was no longer interested in playing him, for whatever reason. He wasn't going to do squat for us sitting on the bench day in and day out, so trading him for something was our best bet.

 

Was Schoop the guy to get? That is debatable.

 

Then you blame CC for whatever ridiculous gripe he had or Stearns for allowing such to happen.

 

Maybe something happened behind the scenes we don't know about...I doubt it, but possible. They just couldn't figure out how to make Villar excel anymore.