Brewers trade for Schoop; give up Luis Ortiz, Jean Carmona, and Jonathan Villar

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I don't get everyone coming to Stearns defense with the argument that he had to make trades, bad or not, to clear 40-man roster spots.

 

SERIOUSLY?

 

So he was determined to add Ortiz to a deal just so he could get rid of him? Even if the trade was unnecessary?

 

Why did he trade Jean Carmona then? He wasn't going to be a 40-man roster issue for several more years.

 

This argument doesn't hold water IMO.

 

I think it is more of a case of the team made certain prospects available, and it just so happened that they were mostly guys who would need to be added to the 40-man. I'm sure that was by design. He also made some young "lottery ticket" types available that didn't stand much of a chance of helping the team for several years. I'm not real sure what you are trying to argue about here. The strategy makes a lot of sense. They didn't trade guys just to trade them. They traded them to land major league talent to help this year's team.

 

I'm betting they will make a move or two more like this by the end of August as well.

[Boomer5]

Moose is a low OBA guy, was ice cold after the first 1/4 of the season, and plays redundant positions.

 

Schoop is a guy I actually like despite his low OBA but why get him and Moose and go through the weird Shaw to 2B theatre? That said we grossly overpaid for him especially considering his year of control is really a $10M+ obligation.

 

The knocking down of the guys we gave up seems selective because most were talked up an hour before they were traded. I guess that’s what classic fans do after a trade but it seems a board of this quality would be above that.

 

This part is true. I think people thought that because they were in our top ten that they could have returned something like Machado, but the reality is, our farm system cannot compare to that of others. I never thought those guys had much of a chance to make a big impact at the MLB level so I am 100% on board with the trade.

 

Regardless, a combination of Shaw/Moose/Schoop/Arcia is much better than a combination of Shaw/Arcia/Perez/Villar/Saladino/etc. so that is why the trade was made. If anything is evident from Stearns moves over the last couple years, its that he really values depth.

 

Are we really *that* sure Schoop is truly an upgrade over Villar? Let alone cost, control and adding our 5th and 14th ranked prospects? FWIW, if WAR is your thing, Villar is much more valuable of the two. Admittedly both aren’t tearing it up in 2018.

 

Again, FWIW, the Orioles board was upset about the Gausman package and very happy with the Brewer trade.

 

As we discussed in the rumors thread, Dozier was the guy we needed here, and guys like Phillips plus would go for a starter. Moose’s acquisition just seems weird. Maybe Shaw was supposed to be traded and something fell through? I’m sure we will never know.

[Boomer5]

I don't get everyone coming to Stearns defense with the argument that he had to make trades, bad or not, to clear 40-man roster spots.

 

SERIOUSLY?

 

So he was determined to add Ortiz to a deal just so he could get rid of him? Even if the trade was unnecessary?

 

Why did he trade Jean Carmona then? He wasn't going to be a 40-man roster issue for several more years.

 

This argument doesn't hold water IMO.

 

I think it is more of a case of the team made certain prospects available, and it just so happened that they were mostly guys who would need to be added to the 40-man. I'm sure that was by design. He also made some young "lottery ticket" types available that didn't stand much of a chance of helping the team for several years. I'm not real sure what you are trying to argue about here. The strategy makes a lot of sense. They didn't trade guys just to trade them. They traded them to land major league talent to help this year's team.

 

I'm betting they will make a move or two more like this by the end of August as well.

 

It’s funny because in mid July all we heard about was how incredible our farm system was and now it’s we had to cut loose the rule 5 dead weight to trade and settle for guys we probably didn’t need but at least are major league players. Ortiz in particular was a guy where the usual folks would get quite defensive but now he is just some guy we didn’t really care about keeping? Ok.

 

I do think we will add in August as well. Peralta will be hitting his innings limits, Nelson probably isn’t coming back, and Davies hasn’t had a lot of success in his rehab. At some point we are going to need to have a guy pitch 7 great innings when it counts.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Enter Jordan Lyles...

[tmwiese55]

I think Kodi could become more than some here are calling him, but who knows for sure and he's a bit blocked in our pitcher list behind guys we weren't going to trade. You had to give up someone and he's kind of blocked.

 

Folks like Phillips and Ortiz were at risk of losing their shine here pretty quickly, better to get something for them while you can. One of the reason I liked moving Brinson too, another injury year or if he'd come up and had the season that he's currently having then his shine is off.

 

Seems to me they let go of their depth type guys in the system and held their high end guys. Not much to complain about imo as they had to free up some 40 man spots. Now just need Schoop to start hitting so everyone can relax

[Boomer5]

I think Kodi could become more than some here are calling him, but who knows for sure and he's a bit blocked in our pitcher list behind guys we weren't going to trade. You had to give up someone and he's kind of blocked.

 

Folks like Phillips and Ortiz were at risk of losing their shine here pretty quickly, better to get something for them while you can. One of the reason I liked moving Brinson too, another injury year or if he'd come up and had the season that he's currently having then his shine is off.

 

Seems to me they let go of their depth type guys in the system and held their high end guys. Not much to complain about imo as they had to free up some 40 man spots. Now just need Schoop to start hitting so everyone can relax

 

Moose hasn’t exactly lit it up either.

[danzig6767]

I think Kodi could become more than some here are calling him, but who knows for sure and he's a bit blocked in our pitcher list behind guys we weren't going to trade. You had to give up someone and he's kind of blocked.

Kodi is the one guy i worry a bit that some years down the road, we could regret trading away.

 

Yea, he has some command issues, but he's still a young lefty with a great arm who can throw in the mid-90's. If at some point things click for him by himself or via different instruction, he could become more valuable than anyone else we traded.

 

As for Schoop, i just wonder why real prospects were needed to acquire him, but Dozier was traded for nothing given it was pretty much a coin flip over which of the two would be more productive over a 50 game sample the rest of this season?

 

Sure Schoop had another year of control, but it would be at 10 plus million, so no lock to be exercised for a player with his warts, especially that he rarely ever walks.

[OnaBadger58]

I think Kodi could become more than some here are calling him, but who knows for sure and he's a bit blocked in our pitcher list behind guys we weren't going to trade. You had to give up someone and he's kind of blocked.

 

Folks like Phillips and Ortiz were at risk of losing their shine here pretty quickly, better to get something for them while you can. One of the reason I liked moving Brinson too, another injury year or if he'd come up and had the season that he's currently having then his shine is off.

 

Seems to me they let go of their depth type guys in the system and held their high end guys. Not much to complain about imo as they had to free up some 40 man spots. Now just need Schoop to start hitting so everyone can relax

 

Moose hasn’t exactly lit it up either.

The dude has had 33 AB's. He flew from New York to S.F. to play, and then he went up against the Dodgers. Can we give him a little more of a sample size? His defense has not disappointed; it's helped us win at least one game so far.

[tmwiese55]

That is a fair point of discussion by danzig as opposed to harping on 5 games. I'd say the age, extra year, and SS ability. But as you said the extra year is somewhat negated by the money involved. The cost of acquisition difference between Schoop and Dozier/Kinsler types seems quite stark. Maybe it just came down to as simply Baltimore saying if we don't get something legit we'll just wait until offseason or next year and hope he continues his hot streak to increase his value. It could be that simple, they didn't neeed to trade him right now where as those guys did have to go now.

[NievesNoNO]

Moose is a low OBA guy, was ice cold after the first 1/4 of the season, and plays redundant positions.

 

Schoop is a guy I actually like despite his low OBA but why get him and Moose and go through the weird Shaw to 2B theatre? That said we grossly overpaid for him especially considering his year of control is really a $10M+ obligation.

 

The knocking down of the guys we gave up seems selective because most were talked up an hour before they were traded. I guess that’s what classic fans do after a trade but it seems a board of this quality would be above that.

 

This part is true. I think people thought that because they were in our top ten that they could have returned something like Machado, but the reality is, our farm system cannot compare to that of others. I never thought those guys had much of a chance to make a big impact at the MLB level so I am 100% on board with the trade.

 

Regardless, a combination of Shaw/Moose/Schoop/Arcia is much better than a combination of Shaw/Arcia/Perez/Villar/Saladino/etc. so that is why the trade was made. If anything is evident from Stearns moves over the last couple years, its that he really values depth.

 

This is the best explanation I can find and I'm in agreement. They subtracted Villar and Saladino (or whoever rotated through that roster spot) with Moustakas and Schoop. They are not perfect players but for sure that is an upgrade. Adding two recent All-Stars with 30+ hr power is not leaving empty handed. For sure there is going to be at least a modest cost for that type of player.

 

If we're going to use the small sample of Brewer AB's to downgrade the Schoop add then we should also use the small sample to analyze Moustakas's glove at 3B. He has been excellent over there; and Shaw has actually looked adequate at 2B when slotted there (something I was skeptical about).

 

I know people don't want to sacrifice the future, but perhaps the future is now. We can debate on what moves should've been made instead. That's cool; I get it. Maybe other moves would've been more ideal, but I don't think there's any debate that the team got better at the deadline.

[A Swing and A Drive]

That is a fair point of discussion by danzig as opposed to harping on 5 games. I'd say the age, extra year, and SS ability. But as you said the extra year is somewhat negated by the money involved. The cost of acquisition difference between Schoop and Dozier/Kinsler types seems quite stark. Maybe it just came down to as simply Baltimore saying if we don't get something legit we'll just wait until offseason or next year and hope he continues his hot streak to increase his value. It could be that simple, they didn't neeed to trade him right now where as those guys did have to go now.

 

With this same sentiment, I could be a signal that Stearns was doing his 2018-2019 offseason work early and acquiring a starting 2B for 2019 season. This would allow them to NOT rush Keston Huira and count on him as our 2020 starter at 2B.

 

He might have figured that although there is not a need for Schoop now, I'm sure Counsell can work out the lineups and it gives us some nice offensive depth for our 2018 playoff push. I'm sure the Orioles convincing Steans that Schoop can play some SS sealed the deal.

 

If true, I still do not like the move and think it's a mistake. Don't even think Schoop will be worth paying what he will cost in his final year of arbitration next season.

 

Really think a Ortiz/Carmona packaged deal should have landed us a controllable SP upgrade.

[FVBrewerFan]

So overpaying was due to rule 5?

 

We gave up our 5th, 10th, 13th, and 14th ranked prospects for 3 guys who are probably 2 month rentals or an overpay for an extra year of Schoop.

 

- Phillips was blocked and would never see regular playing time

- Ortiz was stuck in AA purgatory and we have plenty of young pitching depth

- Meideros was, at his ceiling, a bullpen arm...those are a dime a dozen

- Carmona was an athletic upside piece still 4 or 5 years away from the majors

All these guys helped bring in two very good major league players to help the Brewers make the playoffs. Also, none of these prospects were having very good years so I don't think they are valued as highly as some people on this forum tend to think. I guarantee that's what Stearns saw when he tried trading putting them in trades.

 

Honestly, the bolded part just screams of describing guys a certain way to make your point.

 

Phillips was not blocked. If/when his bat came around he would play plenty. Braun is a part time player, Thames could have gone back to 1B- and he's a FA after next year.

 

Ortiz I was never very high on, but he still projects to be in a MLB rotation. Medeiros ceiling is higher than a dime a dozen bullpen arm. Carmona is not necessarily 5 years away from the majors. Even so, talent is talent.

 

Yea, it's no like these are can't miss guys by any means. But I also think they have higher upside than you're giving them credit for. Pretty sure the teams that traded for them think so too.

[FVBrewerFan]

That is a fair point of discussion by danzig as opposed to harping on 5 games. I'd say the age, extra year, and SS ability. But as you said the extra year is somewhat negated by the money involved. The cost of acquisition difference between Schoop and Dozier/Kinsler types seems quite stark. Maybe it just came down to as simply Baltimore saying if we don't get something legit we'll just wait until offseason or next year and hope he continues his hot streak to increase his value. It could be that simple, they didn't neeed to trade him right now where as those guys did have to go now.

 

With this same sentiment, I could be a signal that Stearns was doing his 2018-2019 offseason work early and acquiring a starting 2B for 2019 season. This would allow them to NOT rush Keston Huira and count on him as our 2020 starter at 2B.

 

He might have figured that although there is not a need for Schoop now, I'm sure Counsell can work out the lineups and it gives us some nice offensive depth for our 2018 playoff push. I'm sure the Orioles convincing Steans that Schoop can play some SS sealed the deal.

 

If true, I still do not like the move and think it's a mistake. Don't even think Schoop will be worth paying what he will cost in his final year of arbitration next season.

 

Really think a Ortiz/Carmona packaged deal should have landed us a controllable SP upgrade.

 

You can think that, but obviously it wasn't enough or a deal would have been done. Stearns was trying to trade for a SP more than anything else, and looked into all of them. It wasn't enough. And when you add the word "controllable" it wasn't NEARLY enough.)

[A Swing and A Drive]

 

Really think a Ortiz/Carmona packaged deal should have landed us a controllable SP upgrade.

 

You can think that, but obviously it wasn't enough or a deal would have been done. Stearns was trying to trade for a SP more than anything else, and looked into all of them. It wasn't enough. And when you add the word "controllable" it wasn't NEARLY enough.)

 

Simply not true. The package that landed 2 and a half years of Kevin Gausman was FAR, FAR weaker than the package that Stearns gave up to get Schoop.

[PeaveyFury]

I think there's a decent amount of 'own prospect overvaluing' going on here, but the truth on their value lies somewhere between 'Rule V dump' and 'certain future major league contributor.' Reality is, many of the guys that were moved have flaws, some significant. I'm betting that the Brewers did their homework and very best to try and determine the players who had flaws that were likely to keep them from becoming quality major league players.

 

The Chacin thread alone should be a nice reminder, though, of how bad of an idea it is to pre-judge a move or decide on its success after a week or two. People calling Chacin a bad signing would have been right in that time frame, and now....

[superfly]

 

You can think that, but obviously it wasn't enough or a deal would have been done. Stearns was trying to trade for a SP more than anything else, and looked into all of them. It wasn't enough. And when you add the word "controllable" it wasn't NEARLY enough.)

 

Simply not true. The package that landed 2 and a half years of Kevin Gausman was FAR, FAR weaker than the package that Stearns gave up to get Schoop.

 

That's why we are typing on the computer and David Stearns is making the trades. This isn't a dig towards you, but obviously the Braves and Orioles do not agree with your assessment with regards to the Gausman deal. And no I don't get the Schoop deal, it seems fairly Herb Kohl-like "last minute must grab a guy" to me...unlike the Moustakas and Soria deals.

[rickh150]

Still think it's about getting a righty bat at one of our weak spots for the lefty SP Cubs.... not many were better against lefties last season.

[Fear The Chorizo]

All indications are Evan Phillips is at the point in his development as a late inning reliever where Hader was around this time last year - he's got a live arm with some command issues, and his struggles as a starter point him towards a career in the bullpen. Hader appears to have had more success in the minors as a starter than Phillips, but don't underestimate how valuable a MLB-ready late inning reliever is with basically 6 years of team control. Phillips was the Braves' best relief prospect in terms of actual onfield production in a loaded system this year, regardless of what his top 30 ranking was preseason. I'm not trying to equate Phillips' value at the time of this trade exactly to what Hader's would have been had the Brewers dealt him at last year's deadline, but if in July 2017 we knew that Hader would be a reliever only and not known how dominant he's been at the MLB level since as a shutdown reliever, most of us wouldn't have flinched if he would have headlined a trade for Quintana. Maybe a 2018 Brewer comparable to Phillips would be Woodruff in terms of value?

 

The article below on Zimmerman in mid July indicates he should have been rated much higher in the Braves' system than what he was preseason - lefty collegiate starter drafted in 2017 that led the Brave minor league system in Ks and was already doing well in AA. Not going to throw it through a wall but a fastball in the low 90s with a good repertoire of pitches isn't bad, either.

https://www.talkingchop.com/2018/7/10/17551486/the-rise-of-atlanta-braves-minor-league-prospect-bruce-zimmermann

 

IMO, he's a peg below a LH version of Zach Brown, another prospect many here (including myself) highly value.

 

Cumberland seems like a guy who could become a MLB backup catcher with a little offensive ability, and there's value in that - he's definitely had a down year in 2018 compared to what he did across 2 levels in 2017. He's below Nottingham in terms of prospect value, but he's probably about where we saw Nottingham last year in terms of value.

 

Preseason, Encarnacion was probably the highest rated prospect in the Braves' system included in this deal - still a ways off, but his tools remain very projectable for a player that could develop into an all star caliber IF. Essentially a lotto ticket with big upside and a floor that is better than "total flameout". In terms of a comparable Brewers' prospect right now, he's 2 levels below Erceg but 3 years younger, putting up better offensive numbers - tough to pin a completely similar Brewer prospect - I'd say a shade below Erceg's current offensive ability but with Lara's tools to work with at an age where he could really blossom and turn into a big time talent. Encarnacion has a few more years of minor league control to work with compared to Lara, even though they are basically the same age.

 

So, had the Brewers offered Woodruff, Brown, Nottingham, and Lara, plus picked up ODay's $9 million salary and sent $2.5 Million of their international bonus pool money to Baltimore, we'd be ok with that for Gausman? I'd think that was a significant overpay - If anything going through these prospects made me realize just how much better the top end of a system like ATL's is compared to Milwaukee's right now. Baltimore fans might be happier with the return they got for Schoop simply because they're looking at prospect rankings within individual organizations without comparing the actual prospects to each other. Plus, they get to see an initial hot streak from Villar to give them a false sense of him being a controllable asset for the next 3 seasons.

[jonescm128]

Still think it's about getting a righty bat at one of our weak spots for the lefty SP Cubs.... not many were better against lefties last season.

 

Yes and making our bench much deeper. For how many defensive switches and lineup manipulation occurs with a team relying on its bullpen, it is crucial to have a deep bench.

[JosephC]

I thought the prospect return for Gausman was light, but the inclusion of O'Day can't be under-estimated. He's 35 years old, missed time earlier in the year with a hyper-extended elbow and now is out of the year after having hamstring surgery. He's old enough where it's questionable how effective he'll be when he returns in 2019. He's to be paid about 3 million for the rest of this year and 9 million for next year. I like him as a pitcher but he won't do them any good for the remainder of 2018, and if he's less than average next year it basically ends up as the Braves eating 12 million in salary. The Orioles had to thrilled to be able to part with that contract after it was announced that he was out for the rest of the year. And adding that 2.5 million in international pool money might put them as the favorites to sign Victor Victor Mesa, whereas a short time ago most speculated he'd end up with the Marlins. Mesa + the four prospects - O'Days contract could make this into a very good deal for Baltimore...but Mesa is a key piece in this and there is no guarantee that he will sign with the Orioles.

[bill hAll Star]

So overpaying was due to rule 5?

 

We gave up our 5th, 10th, 13th, and 14th ranked prospects for 3 guys who are probably 2 month rentals or an overpay for an extra year of Schoop.

 

- Phillips was blocked and would never see regular playing time

- Ortiz was stuck in AA purgatory and we have plenty of young pitching depth

- Meideros was, at his ceiling, a bullpen arm...those are a dime a dozen

- Carmona was an athletic upside piece still 4 or 5 years away from the majors

All these guys helped bring in two very good major league players to help the Brewers make the playoffs. Also, none of these prospects were having very good years so I don't think they are valued as highly as some people on this forum tend to think. I guarantee that's what Stearns saw when he tried trading putting them in trades.

 

Honestly, the bolded part just screams of describing guys a certain way to make your point.

 

Phillips was not blocked. If/when his bat came around he would play plenty. Braun is a part time player, Thames could have gone back to 1B- and he's a FA after next year.

 

Ortiz I was never very high on, but he still projects to be in a MLB rotation. Medeiros ceiling is higher than a dime a dozen bullpen arm. Carmona is not necessarily 5 years away from the majors. Even so, talent is talent.

 

Yea, it's no like these are can't miss guys by any means. But I also think they have higher upside than you're giving them credit for. Pretty sure the teams that traded for them think so too.

 

Aguilar, Santana, Phillips, Braun, Cain, Yelich, Thames, Broxton - which of those guys do you completely DFA, leave exposed to rule 5, or leave a 100% bench role in 2019? Braun can get less time but he still has to be on your MLB roster.

[bill hAll Star]

I think that the debate of how inspiring the prospect list is interesting and I think the lack of hooking a big fish at the deadline and at certain periods after the Yelich move are due to Stearns having a package that he's willing to part with and sticking to his guns.

 

There's the Scooter/Segura complaint, and that is warranted. They let some MLB guys go that figured something out with their swing and are both great players.

 

But in the minors realm, so far our evidence is:

-Letting Miguel Diaz go to rule 5. He looks like if he's ever going to make an impact it'll be in 2021 if ever.

-Holding firmly to Brinson, Diaz, Harrison as the offer for Yelich - Diaz is moving up the ranks but still has some holes in his swing, Brinson has his known struggles, Harrison still could be good but he's really struggling right now.

-Cordell for Swarzak - Cordell is hurt but no MLB impact.

-Garrett Cooper in a deal - another "just a guy." We got "just a guy" but some people were crying about losing Cooper after 1 good MLB week last year.

-The above list (TBA)

 

I'm not saying everything Stearns does is going to be a bust prospect for something better in return but I think he is very stingy to hold on to the guys he truly thinks have value.

 

I'm sure Phillips and the guys traded for Yelich will make a dent in the majors at some point and it's possible that Diaz, Harrison, or Brinson will one day be very good...but it does seem like Stearns has his list of prospects that he likes a little bit less than the pundits and he will hold out until he can get something for them. He'd probably dip into the Hiura/Burnes/Hader group for the perfect trade and only the perfect trade.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Jonathan Schoop's first week as a Milwaukee Brewer

 

25 at bats

3 hits

0 bb

11 SO

2 r

3 rbi

.120 avg

.120 obp

.160 slugging

.280 ops

 

3 fielding errors

 

And for the Small Sample Sizers... .263 OBP in 392 abs on the season

 

Better times ahead...

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Jonathan Schoop's first week as a Milwaukee Brewer

 

25 at bats

3 hits

0 bb

11 SO

2 r

3 rbi

.120 avg

.120 obp

.160 slugging

.280 ops

 

3 fielding errors

 

Better times ahead...

 

Stearns did it, We Believe it, That Settles it!

 

The posters here that seem to be taking pleasure in Schoop's poor play to prove themselves right are beginning to get a little bothersome.

[bill hAll Star]

Jonathan Schoop's first week as a Milwaukee Brewer

 

25 at bats

3 hits

0 bb

11 SO

2 r

3 rbi

.120 avg

.120 obp

.160 slugging

.280 ops

 

3 fielding errors

 

Better times ahead...

 

Stearns did it, We Believe it, That Settles it!

 

I'm not a huge Schoop fan, but he's going to be very up-and-down. To be fair to the small sample [completely pitching/environment disregarding] militia, he's only got about 60 games this year, so he had better have one or two of those streaks where the ball goes over the fence a lot pretty soon.