Brewers trade for Schoop; give up Luis Ortiz, Jean Carmona, and Jonathan Villar

[Boomer5]

Schoop's a low OBP guy who has been known for bad offensive stretches. Kind of surprised that this is the guy who Stearns ended up getting. But it really can't be debated that the Brewers needed to be in near desperation mode to get runs from the bottom of the order. And despite BrewerFan's love for the minor league system, I really don't think Stearns had very many attractive pieces to deal if Hiura, Burnes, Peralta and Ray were removed from consideration.

 

My disappointment could be largely biased because I like OBP above all else when it comes to hitters. The Schoop/Moustakas combination seemed like a complete 180 from what Stearns was doing when he went out and acquired players like Yelich and Cain. Hopefully these guys will be able to get some key hits down the stretch.

 

Yes. These two moves werent terribly well thought out.

[FVBrewerFan]

Moose trade made perfect sense, they needed another LH stick. Schoop is a different story. Stearns was trying to get a SP and couldn't get one without giving up a top prospect. Schoop was a fallback at the last minute just get someone at the deadline he thought could help the team. Will he? We'll see, thumbs down for me but I get why he did it.

[TURBO]

Jonathan Villar went 3-for-3 with a solo home run, three runs scored and a stolen base in the Orioles' win over the Rangers on Sunday.

 

Villar was an afterthought in the trade deadline deal that shipped slugger Jonathan Schoop to Milwaukee, but he's quietly hitting .471 (8-for-17) in four games with the Orioles. He stole a base off Rangers starter Drew Hutchison in the second inning and later took reliever Matt Moore deep for a solo shot in the seventh inning. With zero obstacles blocking his path to everyday at bats, the 27-year-old is an appealing middle infield option in deeper mixed leagues over the final two months. He's up to seven home runs and 15 stolen bases in 91 games this season.

 

Aug 5 - 8:08 PM

[502 to Right]

Moose trade made perfect sense, they needed another LH stick. Schoop is a different story. Stearns was trying to get a SP and couldn't get one without giving up a top prospect. Schoop was a fallback at the last minute just get someone at the deadline he thought could help the team. Will he? We'll see, thumbs down for me but I get why he did it.

 

If he wanted someone at the deadline he should have gotten Jose Iglesias to play SS.

 

He'd have a gold glove quality shortstop who hits well enough to justify a spot in the batting order. Instead we have Arcia putting up a 31 OPS+ at SS. This is complete crap.

 

I am far from a Stearns hater but his moves at the deadline constitute malpractice. His trade for Moose was mind-boggling stupid.

[SomewhereInTime]

I'm on board with most moves Stearns makes, he has been an excellent GM so far and has quickly turned this team into a legit contender, however this is a very bad mistake all around. I really don't like giving up Ortiz and I really think Schoop is a bad baseball player. Anyone with a .264 OBP and a 3% walkrate is a terrible player to have in your lineup, especially if they aren't an elite defender. This is a career 3.6% walkrate 98 wRC+ player over 2500+ PAs. I don't want him starting, I don't think he should be on the active roster, and I hope to god they don't pay him 9mil+ in arby next year.

 

Villar, Saladino, Orf, Huira, Perez, Hager, Moore were all better options.

[trwi7]

Yeah, even if Schoop is a slight upgrade on any number of 2B platoon options we had, I'm not sure you can justify the cost of giving up Ortiz and Carmona and paying Schoop the money he's getting the rest of the year and next year.

 

I think it would be stupid to give him $10+ million in arbitration but I'm guessing that's the plan because you don't give up what they did for a rental.

[jonescm128]

I think maybe we can hold off on making a judgement after 20 at bats. Yes, he has been pretty terrible through the first few games with the Brewers and it makes it worse to stomach since Villar has started hot with the Orioles but it was still a goodmove.

 

Villar's days with the Brewers were numbered. Aside from 2016 he has not been a very good player. With Hiura making a play at 2B for 2019, there was no spot for Villar on this team. Ortiz seemed to have been stuck in purgatory as this was his third straight year in AA and we have a bunch of young pitching prospects, so he was expendable. Carmona could very well be the key to this piece but he was at least 4 years away from contributing at a major league level.

 

Schoop, despite his recent struggles, is a very good baseball player. You don't put together a .293/.338/.503 slash line with 32 home runs without being a good player. Even the year before his breakout, his OPS was .752 and had a wRC+ of 99. He started the year slow and was dealing with an oblique injury but was tearing the cover off the ball in July. We don't need a high OBP guy in the 6 or 7 hole, we need a guy who can drive in runs and that's what Schoop does.

 

Getting a guy like Schoop that is controllable for another year is well worth it. Good baseball players don't just become bad baseball players overnight. Aguilar is hitting .140 after and slugging .300 after the all-star break. Guys go through rough stretches.

 

I think people forget that these guys are human beings. Schoop was an international signee and all he has ever known in the US is the Baltimore Orioles organization. It may take some time for him to get comfortable with a new city, new teammates, and a new organization. I still think this was a good move and will hold off judgement for a while. He will turn it around.

[tmwiese55]

Que? He got hurt in Pittsburgh running into an out at third base.

 

So he has to be perfect now? Cain and others have gotten picked off first a few times, stuff happens. Somebody else recently also got thrown out going to 3rd at a time they had no business doing it. Villar played good D this year and had next to none of the old dumb mistakes, it's like they put a stop sign up on him and he listened. He cleaned up this crap, what killed him is that he hit nowhere near what he did two years ago. It's that simple.

[bill hAll Star]

Jonathan Villar went 3-for-3 with a solo home run, three runs scored and a stolen base in the Orioles' win over the Rangers on Sunday.

 

Villar was an afterthought in the trade deadline deal that shipped slugger Jonathan Schoop to Milwaukee, but he's quietly hitting .471 (8-for-17) in four games with the Orioles. He stole a base off Rangers starter Drew Hutchison in the second inning and later took reliever Matt Moore deep for a solo shot in the seventh inning. With zero obstacles blocking his path to everyday at bats, the 27-year-old is an appealing middle infield option in deeper mixed leagues over the final two months. He's up to seven home runs and 15 stolen bases in 91 games this season.

 

Aug 5 - 8:08 PM

 

Yovani Gallardo, Ariel Jurado, Mike Minor, Drew Hutchison

 

Rich Hill, Clayton Kershaw, German Marquez, Tyler Anderson, Jon Gray

 

Just a little bit of difference there without even bringing the bullpens into the equation.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I think maybe we can hold off on making a judgement after 20 at bats. Yes, he has been pretty terrible through the first few games with the Brewers and it makes it worse to stomach since Villar has started hot with the Orioles but it was still a goodmove.

 

Villar's days with the Brewers were numbered. Aside from 2016 he has not been a very good player. With Hiura making a play at 2B for 2019, there was no spot for Villar on this team. Ortiz seemed to have been stuck in purgatory as this was his third straight year in AA and we have a bunch of young pitching prospects, so he was expendable. Carmona could very well be the key to this piece but he was at least 4 years away from contributing at a major league level.

 

Schoop, despite his recent struggles, is a very good baseball player. You don't put together a .293/.338/.503 slash line with 32 home runs without being a good player. Even the year before his breakout, his OPS was .752 and had a wRC+ of 99. He started the year slow and was dealing with an oblique injury but was tearing the cover off the ball in July. We don't need a high OBP guy in the 6 or 7 hole, we need a guy who can drive in runs and that's what Schoop does.

 

Getting a guy like Schoop that is controllable for another year is well worth it. Good baseball players don't just become bad baseball players overnight. Aguilar is hitting .140 after and slugging .300 after the all-star break. Guys go through rough stretches.

 

I think people forget that these guys are human beings. Schoop was an international signee and all he has ever known in the US is the Baltimore Orioles organization. It may take some time for him to get comfortable with a new city, new teammates, and a new organization. I still think this was a good move and will hold off judgement for a while. He will turn it around.

 

Good post! I agree 100%

 

So many here are so quick to rush to judgement. It's almost like there are a few around here that aren't happy unless they are complaining about something. Heck, someone actually posted in the IGT a couple days ago that Schoop needed to be designated for assignment! It was is third game with the team!

 

I was always a big Villar fan, and it was very unfortunate the way his tenure ended with the Brewers. But it was obvious that Counsell and Stearns had lost faith in him, and those two are now going to have to wear that if/when Villar breaks out, which I expect him to, just as Segura and Gennett have broken out. The Brewers have not had much luck getting sustained production from their middle infielders for some reason during Counsell's tenure, which is actually pretty ironic when you consider his background.

 

Schoop is going to be fine. He's never going to be a high OBP guy, which I would argue the team sorely needs, but he has proven to be good both offensively and defensively, by all accounts is a great locker room guy, and adds pop and another dangerous bat to a lineup that needed it. Lets not rush to judgement on the basis of five games.

[Boomer5]

Yeah, even if Schoop is a slight upgrade on any number of 2B platoon options we had, I'm not sure you can justify the cost of giving up Ortiz and Carmona and paying Schoop the money he's getting the rest of the year and next year.

 

I think it would be stupid to give him $10+ million in arbitration but I'm guessing that's the plan because you don't give up what they did for a rental.

 

If he doesn’t get hot, I doubt we keep him for next year at $12-$13M.

[JosephC]

I wasn't a fan of this deal but what's done is done. Looking forward, the best move would be to offer arbitration and pay Schoop the money for the 2019 season even if he struggles from now until the end of the year. He will turn 27 this off-season, so there is no reason to think that any decline in performance is age-related (and permanent). While his .264 OBP in 2018 is horrible, he has still been a .266/.306/.467/.773 hitter since the beginning of 2016 and that's a pretty good slash line for a second baseman. He had some minor injury problems earlier this year, but he played in 162 games in 2016 and 160 games in 2017. His 162 game average from 2016 to present is 30 HR/90 RBI.

 

The most likely scenario is that the Brewers will look to trade him, and then bring in a cheaper, veteran 2B to play 2.5 months to bridge the gap to Hiura. I'm not saying that I favor having Hiura in the minors for 2+ months next year, but that's the way the "control/Super 2" game is played and that's likely what the Brewers have in mind. However, with Schoop's poor performance this year, it could be difficult to find a buyer for him especially with how down the second base market has been over the last year+. If push comes to shove, I pay Schoop the money and keep him for 2019. The Brewers, being the smallest market team, just cannot afford to give up assets for nothing. Despite how bad Schoop has looked recently, he'll be a 27 year old that was an All-Star and finished 12th in MVP voting in 2017. Players like that just should not get cut loose without any type of compensation coming back.

[xisxisxis]

It hasn't worked out, yet, because Moustakas has been = brewers 2B and Schoop has been = Arcia. So we haven't seen an upgrade in production. I would bet that Moustakas ends up hitting better than our previous 2B options and Schoop will outhit Arcia (who can't?)... We aren't really worse off (I don't care about the money at this point as it only means the owners take home 20% return this year instead of 25%) and we should be in better shape when both of them adjust to the NL...

[tmwiese55]

Criticizing the trade based on targeting a low OBP guy is fine. It seems counter to what they wanted here. But criticizing it based on 5 games is just wrong. He'll end up hitting around his career norms and will hit some ding dongs. We've lamented all year on playing Arcia, Sogard, etc at SS and getting nothing. This guy will take a chunk of those starts, is he perfect? No. But it's a big step up from what we've had at the spot. 4-5 games is nothing, guys struggle like that all the time. And in this case he's had all the transitional stuff, travel, and seeing new pitchers. Give him some time and support the guy, hopefully he'll have hot streak to carry us.

 

If I remember his last AB was a rocket right at SS. Hopefully sign of good things to come.

[monty57]

This trade stunk. The Moose trade stunk. I have no idea what Stearns is thinking. I love the guy but these two moves make little sense.

 

I'd guess that Stearns believes he has more than 40 guys he'd like to protect this coming offseason, so some he's using some of the "iffy" guys in trade to acquire players who can help this year's team in their playoff run.

 

I love that we have a lot of pitching talent in the minors, but the reality is that if we don't move some players, we will have to leave some of them exposed to Rule 5 where we will lose them for $50,000.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I'd guess that Stearns believes he has more than 40 guys he'd like to protect this coming offseason, so some he's using some of the "iffy" guys in trade to acquire players who can help this year's team in their playoff run.

 

When you factor in some of the prospects who don't have to be added to the 40 man just yet for protection, but who are knocking loudly on deserving to be MLB players, there are absolutely still more than 40 guys Stearns would want to protect - even after the deadline moves that included sending 5 of those guys packing (Medeiros, Ortiz, Phillips, Villar, and Lopez)

[Boomer5]

So overpaying was due to rule 5?

 

We gave up our 5th, 10th, 13th, and 14th ranked prospects for 3 guys who are probably 2 month rentals or an overpay for an extra year of Schoop.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

So overpaying was due to rule 5?

 

We gave up our 5th, 10th, 13th, and 14th ranked prospects for 3 guys who are probably 2 month rentals or an overpay for an extra year of Schoop.

 

Price of doing business. And if the Brewers make the playoffs and make a run, it is payment well spent. None of those guys was a "must hold".

[Boomer5]

So overpaying was due to rule 5?

 

We gave up our 5th, 10th, 13th, and 14th ranked prospects for 3 guys who are probably 2 month rentals or an overpay for an extra year of Schoop.

 

Price of doing business. And if the Brewers make the playoffs and make a run, it is payment well spent. None of those guys was a "must hold".

 

Oh I absolutely suggested we go for the playoffs. Our system isn’t and wasn’t strong enough to worry about giving away guys if we can make the playoffs. It’s not like we have a system like Atlanta.

 

I’m just saying without question we paid a super premium for what we received back.

 

Soria is a guy all playoff teams need down the stretch but let’s be honest, Schoop and Moose arent really impressive. It felt like they were moves just to get rid of rule 5 guys and decent ones at that.

[jonescm128]

So overpaying was due to rule 5?

 

We gave up our 5th, 10th, 13th, and 14th ranked prospects for 3 guys who are probably 2 month rentals or an overpay for an extra year of Schoop.

 

- Phillips was blocked and would never see regular playing time

- Ortiz was stuck in AA purgatory and we have plenty of young pitching depth

- Meideros was, at his ceiling, a bullpen arm...those are a dime a dozen

- Carmona was an athletic upside piece still 4 or 5 years away from the majors

 

All these guys helped bring in two very good major league players to help the Brewers make the playoffs. Also, none of these prospects were having very good years so I don't think they are valued as highly as some people on this forum tend to think. I guarantee that's what Stearns saw when he tried trading putting them in trades.

[jonescm128]

So overpaying was due to rule 5?

 

We gave up our 5th, 10th, 13th, and 14th ranked prospects for 3 guys who are probably 2 month rentals or an overpay for an extra year of Schoop.

 

Price of doing business. And if the Brewers make the playoffs and make a run, it is payment well spent. None of those guys was a "must hold".

 

Oh I absolutely suggested we go for the playoffs. Our system isn’t and wasn’t strong enough to worry about giving away guys if we can make the playoffs. It’s not like we have a system like Atlanta.

 

I’m just saying without question we paid a super premium for what we received back.

 

Soria is a guy all playoff teams need down the stretch but let’s be honest, Schoop and Moose arent really impressive. It felt like they were moves just to get rid of rule 5 guys and decent ones at that.

 

A super premium? Which top tier prospect did we give up? It wasn't Burnes, Hiura, or Peralta so I don't think "super premium" would be the words to describe giving up some mid-tier prospects for MLB talent.

 

What about Schoop and Moose do you not like? And please do not use a 5 game sample for Schoop to prove your point...

[Boomer5]

Moose is a low OBA guy, was ice cold after the first 1/4 of the season, and plays redundant positions.

 

Schoop is a guy I actually like despite his low OBA but why get him and Moose and go through the weird Shaw to 2B theatre? That said we grossly overpaid for him especially considering his year of control is really a $10M+ obligation.

 

The knocking down of the guys we gave up seems selective because most were talked up an hour before they were traded. I guess that’s what classic fans do after a trade but it seems a board of this quality would be above that.

[jonescm128]

Moose is a low OBA guy, was ice cold after the first 1/4 of the season, and plays redundant positions.

 

Schoop is a guy I actually like despite his low OBA but why get him and Moose and go through the weird Shaw to 2B theatre? That said we grossly overpaid for him especially considering his year of control is really a $10M+ obligation.

 

The knocking down of the guys we gave up seems selective because most were talked up an hour before they were traded. I guess that’s what classic fans do after a trade but it seems a board of this quality would be above that.

 

This part is true. I think people thought that because they were in our top ten that they could have returned something like Machado, but the reality is, our farm system cannot compare to that of others. I never thought those guys had much of a chance to make a big impact at the MLB level so I am 100% on board with the trade.

 

Regardless, a combination of Shaw/Moose/Schoop/Arcia is much better than a combination of Shaw/Arcia/Perez/Villar/Saladino/etc. so that is why the trade was made. If anything is evident from Stearns moves over the last couple years, its that he really values depth.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Moose is a low OBA guy, was ice cold after the first 1/4 of the season, and plays redundant positions.

 

Schoop is a guy I actually like despite his low OBA but why get him and Moose and go through the weird Shaw to 2B theatre? That said we grossly overpaid for him especially considering his year of control is really a $10M+ obligation.

 

The knocking down of the guys we gave up seems selective because most were talked up an hour before they were traded. I guess that’s what classic fans do after a trade but it seems a board of this quality would be above that.

 

As a charter member of the "Brett Phillips Brewer Bandwagon" I know for a fact he was taking a lot of criticism here since spring training. Ortiz and Medieros were being talked about as "throw-in" types this spring as well. All were beginning to wear out their statuses as top prospects. Yes, they could all still break out and be stars, but I think it is just as likely that they don't end up doing much of anything at the MLB level. I am pulling for Phillips to make it, though. I thought he would the perfect right fielder that would provide Gold Glove defense and decent pop. He may still do that, but needs to make better contact.

 

In the end, it isn't as if the Brewers gave up on any of these guys. You have to use talent to get talent back, and all three guys they acquired are high-end MLB players, who I imagine were all highly sought after.

[A Swing and A Drive]

I don't get everyone coming to Stearns defense with the argument that he had to make trades, bad or not, to clear 40-man roster spots.

 

SERIOUSLY?

 

So he was determined to add Ortiz to a deal just so he could get rid of him? Even if the trade was unnecessary?

 

Why did he trade Jean Carmona then? He wasn't going to be a 40-man roster issue for several more years.

 

This argument doesn't hold water IMO.