Hader Tweets

[FVBrewerFan]

In fact, as I thought about it this morning I guess that's what is still missing. I would like to hear more detail on the context these comments were made. He doesn't owe me that, he doesn't owe me anything. Just saying for me to get comfortable cheering for him again, I would like to know. Not speaking for anyone else.

 

I think that would likely help, but I doubt that we're going to see the details as his reps will see no upside to releasing that as they are already dealing with the worst case scenario... (or they think)...

 

No doubt. Companies, people, sports teams, etc. are still really horrible with PR. The common wisdom is apologize, say as little as possible, and hope it blows over. Sometimes it does.

 

But Hader (and the Brewers) would be wide to have a press conf, get all the details out there, answer any questions, and make it clear this is the last time anything will be said on the subject. That's how you get these things behind you. Could make it uglier for a couple days, but in the long run it's the best way to handle it because there are no lingering questions. Yes, some people won't believe him or support him. But that's going to happen no matter what.

[istanbultaye]

I think expecting some sort of detailed explanation of the context of a 10 character or less offensive tweet from 7 years ago is pretty silly, just from the standpoint of: The only reason I remember what I have for breakfast yesterday is because I get the same thing for breakfast every day... (Actually, I was off yesterday... did I even eat breakfast?) Very few people would be able to remember the details of the context of a stupid tweet beyond "I was a stupid teenager and I said some stupid stuff that I shouldn't have ever said" in the first place. If he was able to remember the context that would almost be more an indication that he hasn't changed since because he's still been thinking about it 7 years later.

[homer]

People have done reasonably well keeping this non political and respectful. Please continue to do so without resorting to calling someone's ideas "idiotic".

[Ennder]

Every time hateful things are said about a group of people and it is brushed off with "It's okay, he's just a kid" is another time we are making it normal for this kind of speech to exist.

 

"It was just locker room talk."

"It's just video game banter."

"It's just the internet, that doesn't matter."

 

It's hate. It's demeaning groups of people. It is NOT okay.

 

Edit: Travis Sarandos over at BrewCrew Ball said it better than I ever could.

 

Nowhere did I say it was ok. I would expect if I came and posted the exact same things on my social media people would be upset about it, even people who knew me really well. I'm looking at it more from the intent behind it. The intent behind words means way more than the words themselves do. I don't think the intent is as bad as people are making it out to be here.

 

I spend time gaming with young kids, this kind of stuff is just part of the vernacular these days online. It doesn't make it right but you have to be realistic about the world too. The intent behind those posts means everything. I am personally judging the intent to be that of a dumb young kid and not a hateful person.

 

The post you quoted just isn't realistic at all, it isn't how the world is ever going to work. It still doesn't make anything posted right, but it isn't as wrong as it could be with different intent behind it. The world is not black or white, it is full of gray. That post is just trying to say the gray doesn't exist. Things aren't just right or wrong, there is a lot of space between the two extremes, some things are more wrong than others.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

People have done reasonably well keeping this non political and respectful. Please continue to do so without resorting to calling someone's ideas "idiotic".

 

I was agreeing with the poster I quoted and referring to that article. Referring to the article as idiotic is not allowed? That's a new one, and would seem rather selectively enforced.

[hawing]

In fact, as I thought about it this morning I guess that's what is still missing. I would like to hear more detail on the context these comments were made. He doesn't owe me that, he doesn't owe me anything. Just saying for me to get comfortable cheering for him again, I would like to know. Not speaking for anyone else.

I've been thinking all along that I don't have enough context to either write Josh off entirely or be ready to immediately move on. I don't even know what that context would look/sound like.

 

If dumb shallow teenage stuff was ultimately behind the ugly tweets, what are the odds Josh is going to remember exactly what was going on the day/night he tweeted "white power lol." (And at the risk of parsing too finely, isn't LOL what kids add when they are joking about something? Not that white power is a smart thing to joke about; I'm just a language nerd, so I notice that stuff.)

 

There isn't much I can add that's new in this thread, but I'll share some of what's been on my mind anyway:

 

- I don't know who would be able to give a perfectly poised answer - about something that has probably not crossed his mind in a while - out of the blue immediately after a high-profile (and arguably crummy) performance. I'm pretty sure I couldn't.

 

- Whoever started the sharing of the ugly tweets must have some kind of axe to grind. Yes, the tweets are ugly. Choosing that evening to share them is its own kind of ugly. (Allegedly photoshopping tweets into the mix is a whole 'nother kind of ugly, and I don't even want to think about the slippery slope that represents.)

 

- Assuming for the moment that Josh is not full of racial/orientation/gender hatred...I feel genuinely bad for him. Talk about a top-to-bottom day. Of the players we have met as season seat holders (all very brief meetings), Josh seemed among the most enthusiastic to interact with fans. Most players are polite, but you can tell they're just doing what they're assigned. Maybe Josh is just a better actor in that way, but he left a better personal impression on me than most players do. That got me interested in rooting for him even before his early 2018 video game-style performance.

 

- I feel worse for the Brewers organization. It is full of people I care about (including some who are personal friends) and fairly or not, it sustained a black eye at a high-profile time. They got through the Braun experience reasonably well, and I'm confident they will find a way to move through this, but I am sad for them that it's necessary.

 

- I hope it does not become an insurmountable clubhouse problem. The players (Josh especially) will have enough to contend with from opponents and their fanbases, as well as possibly parts of their own fanbase.

This doesn't mean I think winning games is more important than being good people off the field.

 

This should certainly be a learning experience for both Josh and the Brewers. I hope it also leads to a more measured reaction from us as Brewers fans, the next time unsavory news comes to light about a Cardinal or Cub or any other rival.

 

Finally...kudos to everyone who has kept this thread in pretty decent shape, especially given the hot button topics + emotions they naturally inspire.

[homer]

People have done reasonably well keeping this non political and respectful. Please continue to do so without resorting to calling someone's ideas "idiotic".

 

I was agreeing with the poster I quoted and referring to that article. Referring to the article as idiotic is not allowed? That's a new one, and would seem rather selectively enforced.

 

The poster used the article to represent their position. It was the same as calling a post idiotic. If you have seen other instances of people calling others idiots or calling out ideas as idiocy please flag them.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

In fact, as I thought about it this morning I guess that's what is still missing. I would like to hear more detail on the context these comments were made. He doesn't owe me that, he doesn't owe me anything. Just saying for me to get comfortable cheering for him again, I would like to know. Not speaking for anyone else.

I've been thinking all along that I don't have enough context to either write Josh off entirely or be ready to immediately move on. I don't even know what that context would look/sound like.

 

If dumb shallow teenage stuff was ultimately behind the ugly tweets, what are the odds Josh is going to remember exactly what was going on the day/night he tweeted "white power lol." (And at the risk of parsing too finely, isn't LOL what kids add when they are joking about something? Not that white power is a smart thing to joke about; I'm just a language nerd, so I notice that stuff.)

 

There isn't much I can add that's new in this thread, but I'll share some of what's been on my mind anyway:

 

- I don't know who would be able to give a perfectly poised answer - about something that has probably not crossed his mind in a while - out of the blue immediately after a high-profile (and arguably crummy) performance. I'm pretty sure I couldn't.

 

- Whoever started the sharing of the ugly tweets must have some kind of axe to grind. Yes, the tweets are ugly. Choosing that evening to share them is its own kind of ugly. (Allegedly photoshopping tweets into the mix is a whole 'nother kind of ugly, and I don't even want to think about the slippery slope that represents.)

 

- Assuming for the moment that Josh is not full of racial/orientation/gender hatred...I feel genuinely bad for him. Talk about a top-to-bottom day. Of the players we have met as season seat holders (all very brief meetings), Josh seemed among the most enthusiastic to interact with fans. Most players are polite, but you can tell they're just doing what they're assigned. Maybe Josh is just a better actor in that way, but he left a better personal impression on me than most players do. That got me interested in rooting for him even before his early 2018 video game-style performance.

 

- I feel worse for the Brewers organization. It is full of people I care about (including some who are personal friends) and fairly or not, it sustained a black eye at a high-profile time. They got through the Braun experience reasonably well, and I'm confident they will find a way to move through this, but I am sad for them that it's necessary.

 

- I hope it does not become an insurmountable clubhouse problem. The players (Josh especially) will have enough to contend with from opponents and their fanbases, as well as possibly parts of their own fanbase.

This doesn't mean I think winning games is more important than being good people off the field.

 

This should certainly be a learning experience for both Josh and the Brewers. I hope it also leads to a more measured reaction from us as Brewers fans, the next time unsavory news comes to light about a Cardinal or Cub or any other rival.

 

Finally...kudos to everyone who has kept this thread in pretty decent shape, especially given the hot button topics + emotions they naturally inspire.

 

 

You're not the only one who felt that way about Josh Hader.

 

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1019303431222292480

 

If there's one thing I'm not worried about at all it's the clubhouse. They'll be fine. They might lose a lot of games because they're falling off a cliff, but if we end up saying it's because of this I think that's weak. Cain aced damage control 101 the night this happened.

[xisxisxis]

- I feel worse for the Brewers organization.

 

I don't as I can't imagine how anyone would apportion blame to them... I know your friends may feel bad, but over-reacting won't help them. I'm sure the Brewer organization has been busy the last few days making sure the same landmines aren't in any other players closet, but they have the resources that they should have been doing this anyways for anyone they add to the organization. Unfortunately in 2018 it needs to be part of a companies SOP...

[zzzmanwitz]

 

I don't as I can't imagine how anyone would apportion blame to them...

 

I blame them for not having this cleaned up before it became a story. I can't believe they don't (or didn't because I'm sure they do now) have someone in their marketing / PR department who's job it was to review social media for all the players in their organization.

[SomewhereInTime]

Edit: Travis Sarandos over at BrewCrew Ball said it better than I ever could.

 

I read about a third of that post and stopped after reading this:

 

It was a very low bar to clear, and it’s about the only one he didn’t stumble over. He said some of the right things: “There’s no excuses,” “I was stupid and dumb,” etc. But there were some worrying aspects, including the passive “I’m deeply sorry for what was said,” which is so close yet so far from “I’m deeply sorry for what I said.”

 

Sorry, but if someone is going to parse every word from a guy, after just crapping his pants in the biggest game he's ever pitched in when a twitter storm of level 5 is heading right between his eyes, and take issue with the EXACT word he used to apologize is beyond ridiculous... and not worth my time to read any more of his drivel...

 

Travis Sarandos has a far worse twitter history than Josh Hader. The fact that bcb lets him write for them is crazy.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Edit: Travis Sarandos over at BrewCrew Ball said it better than I ever could.

 

I read about a third of that post and stopped after reading this:

 

It was a very low bar to clear, and it’s about the only one he didn’t stumble over. He said some of the right things: “There’s no excuses,” “I was stupid and dumb,” etc. But there were some worrying aspects, including the passive “I’m deeply sorry for what was said,” which is so close yet so far from “I’m deeply sorry for what I said.”

 

Sorry, but if someone is going to parse every word from a guy, after just crapping his pants in the biggest game he's ever pitched in when a twitter storm of level 5 is heading right between his eyes, and take issue with the EXACT word he used to apologize is beyond ridiculous... and not worth my time to read any more of his drivel...

 

Travis Sarandos has a far worse twitter history than Josh Hader. The fact that bcb lets him write for them is crazy.

 

Huh??

[Pugger]

Perhaps this will teach young people and folks in the public eye to be aware of what you say on social media. As someone here said earlier, it might be a good idea for athletes and other celebrities to search their posts and delete anything anyone would construe as offensive and then stay off social media until after you retire.

[xisxisxis]

 

I don't as I can't imagine how anyone would apportion blame to them...

 

I blame them for not having this cleaned up before it became a story. I can't believe they don't (or didn't because I'm sure they do now) have someone in their marketing / PR department who's job it was to review social media for all the players in their organization.

 

If you read past the line you quoted of my post, you will see that I pretty much agree with you. I don't think the Brewers should be blamed for the content of Hader's tweets prior to him becoming a Brewer. I do believe they should do some forensic searching to point out to players that there are posts that are objectionable.

 

Remember we still live in a democracy. While the Brewers (as his employer) have a very good argument that they can control his twitter and social media (as these reflect directly upon Hader's employer), they do not have the right to regulate his prior twits (i.e. Free Speech)... It's a fine line, but they can tell him that all of his social media releases must be "approved" and they can tell him that his past needs to be cleaned up before he's allowed to continue with approval posting on social media. They can't tell him to delete pre-Brewers stuff outright, but I assume since he has shown contrition that if they had flagged these from when he was 17 that he would have deleted them himself... An employer can't control what you do in your private life, but they can argue that given the type of job/industry that they are in that a player really has no private life when they post under their own name...

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The rules of democracy don't really apply to a private entity. Especially one like the Brewers that fires talent regularly. They can cut ties with Hader for any reason they want.

 

They can absolutely tell him to delete old stuff or take a hike. Seattle was very open about why they didn't bring Colin Kaepernick in. Democracy keeps Hader out of jail, it doesn't keep him employed.

[xisxisxis]

The rules of democracy don't really apply to a private entity.

 

Yes they do, but as you state a private entity isn't held to the same standards as public institutions. While you are working plenty of your "freedoms" and rights aren't necessarily protected. On your own time, most private entities do not have any grounds to regulate your freedoms when you keep those activities out of the public domain (a tweet from a 17YO in some town in MD, may not be considered the same as say Colin Kaepernick's National Anthem stand/non). As I said, your employer has some claims on your personal time in certain situations such as a professional sport team and a performer/player. There are also other situations - if I post on my social media account inflammatory material such as hate speech then yes I can be let go by my employer as there is an ethics clause in my employment contract. If I want to get handcuffed and spanked for pleasure in the privacy of my home, there's nothing my employer can do... If a hacker cracked my webcam and posted some of the material on youtube/"on the line" I am still protected from recriminations as I did not post the material (unlawful means of accessing information, does not allow a private company to use such material - ie. ground for termination).

 

 

Seattle was very open about why they didn't bring Colin Kaepernick in.

 

Employers have much more leeway to not interview someone for a job. Pretty much the only issue for the seahawks would be if they said he was black so they wouldn't interview him or one of the other protected classes then they are in big trouble, but stating they don't agree with his stance on certain issues is not protected (i.e. CK has no "rights").

 

 

Employers do what they want plenty of times irrespective of the law. My employer ignores complete sections of offers of employment letters that they made. I have had 3 colleagues leave recently because their conditions of employment were just completely ignored. Most lawyers whom I or my colleagues talk with say the same thing - "you have grounds to sue, but are you willing to end your career?". My employer knows that most of my colleagues don't want to end their careers over these issues. Neither would Hader, if push comes to shove, nor any other player. The reward from complying is greater than any stand you make. That doesn't mean that companies can do what they want. And as I have said several times in these posts, there are plenty of ways for a company to punish someone in ways that it makes it impossible to sue, but that doesn't mean they have the right or that the employee has no rights.

[homer]

I think everyone has made their points on this one. If anything new happens we can open it up again.

[homer]

Unlocking if people want to comment on his apology. Keep it civil and on topic, please.

[rickh150]

If he needs to apologize to several people several times publically, what other wrongs do others have to account for from their youth? Pretty hypocritical that Hader gets blasted when all have said/written stupid things or worse done depraved things.... What's the new norm- say you're sorry when it's on social media? If not, does every player take a confessional before the team each week? Crazy.

 

Great that Josh is apologizing to teammates. Hope it is done and that he doesn't need to go thru this every roadtrip. Hope that he is sorry moreso to the One above.

[rickh150]

Also, shouldn't this be moved to the politics/religion section? Clearly a moral topic and not how Josh is performing. Most people's responses will be directly tied to what they believe in, whether Atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc..... if this isn't a can of worms, what is?

[FVBrewerFan]

Also, shouldn't this be moved to the politics/religion section? Clearly a moral topic and not how Josh is performing. Most people's responses will be directly tied to what they believe in, whether Atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc..... if this isn't a can of worms, what is?

 

You have been the only one, twice now, bringing up religion. Please stop.

 

Back on topic, I'm still confused. He said "I never believed those things." Then please explain why you posted them. This shouldn't be like pulling teeth. Just explain it so we can move on.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Also, shouldn't this be moved to the politics/religion section? Clearly a moral topic and not how Josh is performing. Most people's responses will be directly tied to what they believe in, whether Atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc..... if this isn't a can of worms, what is?

 

You have been the only one, twice now, bringing up religion. Please stop.

 

Back on topic, I'm still confused. He said "I never believed those things." Then please explain why you posted them. This shouldn't be like pulling teeth. Just explain it so we can move on.

 

Do you remember everything you said, and the reason you said it, 8 years ago? I pretty much believe him when he says he didn't remember posting that stuff, and if he doesn't remember doing it, I can't imagine he remembers why he did it. I'm obviously a few more years removed from my teenage years, but it's probably a good thing I can't remember a lot of the stupid stuff I said and did.

[TURBO]

Back on topic, I'm still confused. He said "I never believed those things." Then please explain why you posted them.

 

Have you ever been a teenager? he literally probably has no idea why he posted them.

 

It's been beaten to death, but we all did and said things as a teenager that we would have no clue now as to why we did them.

 

It's such a ridiculous wringer this guy is being put through, being held accountable for things he said 7 years ago as a 17 year old kid. This world is out of control and I truly hope that all those judging him, especially those who made his tweets go public, are somehow, some way held accountable for their youth as well.

 

He made a mistake, he is paying the priice, time to move on rather than look for ways to ruin him.

[PeaveyFury]

It's such a ridiculous wringer this guy is being put through, being held accountable for things he said 7 years ago as a 17 year old kid. This world is out of control and I truly hope that all those judging him, especially those who made his tweets go public, are somehow, some way held accountable for their youth as well.

 

I think that's over the top. I agree that he's apologized and that should be what is expected of him at this point, and that will likely be the end of it. But, yes, many people did stupid stuff when they were kids, and most of that was before social media. But I certainly knew by age 17 that some words and a way of thinking were unacceptable and inappropriate, and I think it's still ok for those that are sad/unhappy that Josh didn't.

 

Lumping 'any dumb thing we did as kids' into one category really isn't reasonable. Some stuff is worse.

 

But yes, time to move on.

[homer]

My take is that he did it for shock value and to maybe get some sick laughs and he can't quite figure out how to explain that.