2018-07-12: Brewers (Miley) at Pirates (Taillon) 6:05 PM CDT [Brewers lose, 6-3]

[mtrebs]

Now that we can’t beat the bad teams, maybe we’ll be able to beat the Cubs.

[PeaveyFury]

 

Exactly. Why couldn't a PH have come in for Miley in the 5th, Houser pitches the 5th-7th, and then we can see where we're at for the 8th and 9th? How is that somehow worse than blowing a scoring chance just to squeeze one more inning out of Miley who wasn't pitching well anyway?

 

I think you’re missing at least part of the point here: it’s likely that if Miley/Hauser was the ‘hell or high water’ plan tonight, one AB in the early innings was unlikely to matter as soon as Miley wasn’t sharp tonight, and less important in the grand scheme of things than getting one more out of Miley. It’s about not needing another pitcher earlier.

 

Obviously (as Hauser continues to struggle tonight), that’s exactly how it played out. Did it matter if Miley got shelled in the 5th rather than Hauser in the 6th?

[mtrebs]

Allowing the pitcher to hit in scoring opportunities cost us the last two games.

 

Also, I will never buy a Sol beer because of the annoying, overplayed commercial.

[82brewcrew82]

 

Houser was always going to pitch tonight. Miley was coming off shorter rehab starts. The only variable was if Houser came in the fourth, fifth or sixth inning.

 

And if Hauser needed to be pulled after looking poor in the 5th inning, instead of now? Who pitches then? It just pushes more guys into the fire.

 

Or, you leave him in to get shelled, which means the one AB that people are up in arms about and started this discussion is meaningless anyway....

 

Asher, if the game got away. If not, everyone should be available tonight. There just isn't a need to use them now because we're going to lose. In part perhaps because we let Miley bat for himself with a scoring chance in the 5th.

You're assuming a positive out come from the pinch hitter and the back end of the bullpen is not a bunch of equally effective moving parts.

[adambr2]

It hasn't been continuous 4 inning starts.

 

This team is 9th in starter innings pitched in the NL. Very much middle of the pack. Too much is being made of this.

Yes, that was a bit of hyperbole but I'm guessing you understand the point. I guess we just agree to disagree but I think the evidence is pretty obvious that the current state of the starting pitching isn't a sustainable situation without exposing some less than optimal choices out of the bullpen in critical situations.

 

Yes. This is my view exactly. I think they’re caught in the tough spot of needing to be sure the main guys are available and effective at the end of the year and throughout a series at the expense of having to let a couple of close games like last night go.

 

IMO you always play to win the game in front of you. There are always moves you can make tomorrow. Worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Even if it means burning a starting pitcher in extras.

 

I guess yesterday might have been the rare exception since tomorrow's starting pitcher was not even on the roster.

[adambr2]

You're assuming a positive out come from the pinch hitter and the back end of the bullpen is not a bunch of equally effective moving parts.

 

True, can't assume that, just like you can't assume 1st and 3rd with 1 out with Thames coming up will result in runs.

[82brewcrew82]

IMO you always play to win the game in front of you. There are always moves you can make tomorrow. Worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Even if it means burning a starting pitcher in extras.

 

I guess yesterday might have been the rare exception since tomorrow's starting pitcher was not even on the roster.

I strongly disagree with that viewpoint. A season is 162 games. If you continually play to win the game in front of you, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[adambr2]

It's pretty sad how reliant this offense has become on Aguilar. If he doesn't do damage, neither does the offense.

 

It's probably not a stretch to assume this would be one of the worst offenses in baseball if we had traded or released Jesus.

[PeaveyFury]

 

IMO you always play to win the game in front of you. There are always moves you can make tomorrow. Worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Even if it means burning a starting pitcher in extras.

 

And I guess that I would argue that that mentality is why so many teams run out of gas at the end of the year. If you’re unable to see the forest for the trees, it could hurt you in the bigger picture. Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint. Sometimes you’re put in the crappy position of having to choose to pass on a race to finish the marathon.

[adambr2]

IMO you always play to win the game in front of you. There are always moves you can make tomorrow. Worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Even if it means burning a starting pitcher in extras.

 

I guess yesterday might have been the rare exception since tomorrow's starting pitcher was not even on the roster.

I strongly disagree with that viewpoint. A season is 162 games. If you continually play to win the game in front of you, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

If you continually ignore the game in front of you while looking down the road, you're going to have a pretty good handful of games after 162 that you look back and ask yourself, "What if?" when you end up missing the playoffs by 1 game.

[brewmann04]

When Miley was announced as starter i decided to go out for a long run instead. But i dont usually blame a coach but think we need to move on from Coles

[mtrebs]

 

IMO you always play to win the game in front of you. There are always moves you can make tomorrow. Worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Even if it means burning a starting pitcher in extras.

 

And I guess that I would argue that that mentality is why so many teams run out of gas at the end of the year. If you’re unable to see the forest for the trees, it could hurt you in the bigger picture. Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint. Sometimes you’re put in the crappy position of having to choose to pass on a race to finish the marathon.

 

I agree with this, but it seems like he Brewers tend to pass on the more-easily winnable races that could pad their lead. They need like a 15 game lead to hold onto it, assuming they will be entering their standard mid-summer swoon.

[adambr2]

 

IMO you always play to win the game in front of you. There are always moves you can make tomorrow. Worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Even if it means burning a starting pitcher in extras.

 

And I guess that I would argue that that mentality is why so many teams run out of gas at the end of the year. If you’re unable to see the forest for the trees, it could hurt you in the bigger picture. Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint. Sometimes you’re put in the crappy position of having to choose to pass on a race to finish the marathon.

 

Let me clarify, when you're down 6-1 and have little chance anyway, do what you gotta do to get out of there and look toward tomorrow. There are situations where you're just playing it out. Pull your starters, put a position player in to pitch, whatever.

 

But when you're playing a tie game in extras against a far inferior team? No. Absolutely not, you never concede that. You do what you have to do to try to come out with a win. They're backed up to their last option or two in the pen also. They are having doubts also. You play to win that game.

 

Most playoff races come down to a game or two. That sounds like one you'll remember if you play it that way.

[82brewcrew82]

If you continually ignore the game in front of you while looking down the road, you're going to have a pretty good handful of games after 162 that you look back and ask yourself, "What if?" when you end up missing the playoffs by 1 game.

That's a straw-man and is definitely not what's being proposed. It's been stated pretty clearly that the context was today's game, not every game. If we hadn't had a rash of short starts and more games than days coming up, it might be a different argument.

[82brewcrew82]

 

IMO you always play to win the game in front of you. There are always moves you can make tomorrow. Worry about tomorrow tomorrow. Even if it means burning a starting pitcher in extras.

 

And I guess that I would argue that that mentality is why so many teams run out of gas at the end of the year. If you’re unable to see the forest for the trees, it could hurt you in the bigger picture. Baseball is a marathon, not a sprint. Sometimes you’re put in the crappy position of having to choose to pass on a race to finish the marathon.

 

I agree with this, but it seems like he Brewers tend to pass on the more-easily winnable races that could pad their lead. They need like a 15 game lead to hold onto it, assuming they will be entering their standard mid-summer swoon.

They have the best record in the league, the can't have passed on that many.

[adambr2]

If you continually ignore the game in front of you while looking down the road, you're going to have a pretty good handful of games after 162 that you look back and ask yourself, "What if?" when you end up missing the playoffs by 1 game.

That's a straw-man and is definitely not what's being proposed. It's been stated pretty clearly that the context was today's game, not every game. If we hadn't had a rash of short starts and more games than days coming up, it might be a different argument.

 

I literally just took the exact thing you said and basically turned it around and stated it the opposite way and you call it a straw-man.

[82brewcrew82]

If you continually ignore the game in front of you while looking down the road, you're going to have a pretty good handful of games after 162 that you look back and ask yourself, "What if?" when you end up missing the playoffs by 1 game.

That's a straw-man and is definitely not what's being proposed. It's been stated pretty clearly that the context was today's game, not every game. If we hadn't had a rash of short starts and more games than days coming up, it might be a different argument.

 

I literally just took the exact thing you said and basically turned it around and stated it the opposite way and you call it a straw-man.

No, you didn't. You're statement was that you ALWAYS play to win the game in front of you. My point was that, no, you don't always play to win the game in front of you. My point was never that you NEVER play to win the game in front of you which is what you're trying to pigeon hole me into. Big difference.

[yfinn6]

I feel like the Brewers need innings from guys other than their "core" more than they need the win. I know that's kind of weird, but that's how I feel about this game. Of course you want to win, but if you lose and it doesn't cost you your tired bullpen arms and you can save them and salvage the series, it's a mini-victory. Just the way I see it. I think I hit the acceptance stage on this stretch sooner than some of you guys, lol.

[82brewcrew82]

Brewers have a top 10 starting rotation in the MLB. I wouldn't say its lacking

 

I read somewhere the other day that they are 26th in quality starts though because they have a hard time going 6 innings. Relying on 4 innings from the bullpen five or six times a week is a recipe for disaster. THe bullpen is going to wear out. Currently they have three of the top ten relievers in innings pitched.

 

This is out of another thread, but I think it's a salient point in this thread.

[Roderick]

 

Houser was always going to pitch tonight. Miley was coming off shorter rehab starts. The only variable was if Houser came in the fourth, fifth or sixth inning.

 

And if Hauser needed to be pulled after looking poor in the 5th inning, instead of now? Who pitches then? It just pushes more guys into the fire.

...

 

Yeah but you have guys you don't care are in the fire, Houser and Asher. That was why they we're brought up. they can go multiple innings and who cares if you leave them in for a shelling (if it gets to that point).

 

And if we actually score enough to be close you can use the relievers that are better.

[82brewcrew82]

I feel like the Brewers need innings from guys other than their "core" more than they need the win. I know that's kind of weird, but that's how I feel about this game. Of course you want to win, but if you lose and it doesn't cost you your tired bullpen arms and you can save them and salvage the series, it's a mini-victory. Just the way I see it. I think I hit the acceptance stage on this stretch sooner than some of you guys, lol.

Exactly, and very well put. Tomorrow, they come back in a much better position for the rest of the series than if they had rifled through arms in this game. "Lose the battle but win the war" is well known for a reason.

[jvrocksaz]

I really don't think any of this is very true. They're constantly rotating bullpen guys in and out by design. Hader has pitched twice in the entire month of July. Burnes has pitched once since his promotion.

 

The design of this pitching staff is and will continue to be short starts and quick hooks and take advantage of a deep pen. If we can deep starts from guys like Anderson or Chacin, we'll welcome it, but forcing it isn't the answer. Sacrificing scoring opportunities to squeeze one more inning out of someone like Wade Miley isn't a good strategy.

What would you need to see to believe it's true? They don't have a farm system where they can continually call up a Josh Hader. Short starts yes, but I don't think anyone believes that continuous four inning starts are going to cut it. You will (and they are) wear out the bull pen pretty quickly with that philosophy.

 

I understand both sides of this however I believe it with be a Brewers philosophy to try to limit allowing starters from going through a lineup a 3rd time. It would seem like numbers go in favor of the hitter the 3rd time through. I honestly think this is why we have already seen some quicker than normal hooks this season for the starters. How this will ultimately play out with the bullpen is something we will find out.

[82brewcrew82]

I understand both sides of this however I believe it with be a Brewers philosophy to try to limit allowing starters from going through a lineup a 3rd time. It would seem like numbers go in favor of the hitter the 3rd time through. I honestly think this is why we have already seen some quicker than normal hooks this season for the starters. How this will ultimately play out with the bullpen is something we will find out.

Which is both fine and a good point. To me though, that is more of an indictment on the quality of the starting pitching and a whole other discussion.

[Boomer5]

Signs of life!

[YelichPosse]

At least we get to their closer who just pitched last night too !