$900 million for 30,000 seats in Tampa

[homer]

Portland has been clamoring for a team for years. And Montreal would have never moved had they built a new stadium. Other cities that have been mentioned in the next wave of expnasion: Mexico City, San Antonio. Charlotte, Nashville, Las Vegas.

[tmwiese55]

Portland would be such an easy and logical move for Oakland since they can't get a stadium built. No needing to shuffle around division like if Tampa moved way west.

[owbc]

A ~30K seat ballpark is a great idea to create a more intimate environment. When Oakland eventually gets a new park it will probably be in the 30-35K seat range as well. Nosebleed seats are not worth the investment.

 

They are legitimately trying to stay in Tampa--it's what the owners and MLB want. The ballpark looks nice.

 

Teams and owners footing the full bill will never happen as long as these teams continue generating such huge revenues. And it does make sense, the teams bring huge money to the local economy. So it's supply and demand - teams are in short supply and rarely become available. So if you want to put your foot down and say we won't pay, another city happily will.

 

The idea that sports teams generate money for the economy has been thoroughly debunked. It turns out the net impact on the local economy is minimal. All it does is redirect money from other forms of entertainment. There aren't exactly other cities lining up for MLB teams any more except for hypothetical lists generated on the Internet. All of the other proposed cities have the same issue--lots of stated interest in teams but politicians/public who are highly skeptical of investment dollars. Hence why owners have recently been using shady techniques to try getting public money (see Atlanta, Arlington, and soon possibly Phoenix).

 

The good news is that the owners are no longer trying the BS "we are losing money" argument. Because we all know they are making plenty of money in the current situation, and they would still be making money if attendance was literally zero. There is a relative abundance of billionaires wanting pro sports teams and supply/demand applies in that realm as well.

[tmwiese55]

But they do generate a bunch in taxes. Yes the local economy impact theory that it creats a bunch of extra revenue for business in the area seems to be discredited. But the team paying taxes and the players paying taxes adds up to quite a lot of money each year. Plus of course the stadium project itself would inject a bunch of money into local construction related companies and jobs.

[owbc]

It will be interesting to see if this gets built and how it gets paid for as it could potentially change the future of stadium funding. Most cities are still green lighting whatever the owner wants but some are saying no. Oakland has repeatedly said no to the Raiders and A's. Didn't Seattle just reject the proposal to build an area to lure NBA and NHL teams and opt to remodel the Key Arena for much less? Not quite on the same level but the Brewers are paying for almost all of the upgrades to Maryvale because no city would pay to build a new facility for them. I think the tide is slowly turning against tax payer funded stadiums. I'm sure it will continue to happen but no longer do I think cities are just going to give the owner a plot of land and a blank check.

 

Seattle is a good example of when the city has all the leverage. Right now Key Arena is a money sink for the city--it's obsolete and bleeding cash--the naming rights agreement with Key Bank expired years ago and they didn't even bother to change the name.

 

For the incoming NHL team they had three groups (two serious bidders) lined up to pay for the renovation. The winning proposal has 100% private investment and additional concessions beyond the actual stadium itself:

 

$600 million overall investment

$40 million in infrastructure/transportation/parking improvements

$20 million toward a community fund that mostly addresses youth homelessness--nothing to do with sports at all

At least $168 million in capital improvements are required--or else the private owners will not be able to extend the lease

 

Obviously not every city has the demand that Seattle does but it certainly shows how profitable owning a sports team can be--even an NHL team!!!

 

Edit--another thing--the group that proposed to build an entirely new arena ALSO proposed to fix Key Arena into a concert venue for FREE (to solve the city's problem with the aging arena). That's how crazy it was.

[owbc]

But they do generate a bunch in taxes. Yes the local economy impact theory that it creats a bunch of extra revenue for business in the area seems to be discredited. But the team paying taxes and the players paying taxes adds up to quite a lot of money each year. Plus of course the stadium project itself would inject a bunch of money into local construction related companies and jobs.

 

Think about it this way--they could spend $500 million in public dollars on literally anything they want. They could build new schools, libraries, highways, parks, bridges, whatever. They could build a giant pyramid. Or a sports stadium. All of those generate construction companies and jobs.

 

The only net income to the local area in the long run would be if dollars from out of state are coming in. Otherwise you are just redistributing money from the local economy. Bowling alleys pay taxes too.

[istanbultaye]

I'm not against public sector having some stake in a stadium plan, but there was a long stretch of time where it was skewed way too much in favor of the teams, and I fully support the state/local governments that have pushed back on absurd plans demanding ridiculous amounts of public funding. Teams should at WORST be contributing 50% of the cost, and probably more in most situations.

[BuckyBrewer61]

The only net income to the local area in the long run would be if dollars from out of state are coming in. Otherwise you are just redistributing money from the local economy. Bowling alleys pay taxes too.

 

As I understand it - and someone correct me if I'm wrong - visiting athletes pay a prorated amount of income taxes in whichever state they are playing in. So if Bryce Harper plays 3 games in Milwaukee this year, 3/162 (1/54th) of his salary is taxed in/to the state of Wisconsin. Not to mention 1/2 the salaries of our own multimillionaire athletes and full salaries of high ranking team officials being taxed to the state. That is millions in revenue that isn't just shifted from one place to another locally, and would be lost if the team was gone. The Bucks used this as an argument for public funding for their new arena.

 

That said, your other points are valid. At the end of the day though, just like free agency...all it takes is one. If one other city says they'll help pay for your stadium, then it's pay up or lose out. It does appear there is a shift away from cities letting teams hold them hostage though.

[owbc]

The only net income to the local area in the long run would be if dollars from out of state are coming in. Otherwise you are just redistributing money from the local economy. Bowling alleys pay taxes too.

 

As I understand it - and someone correct me if I'm wrong - visiting athletes pay a prorated amount of income taxes in whichever state they are playing in. So if Bryce Harper plays 3 games in Milwaukee this year, 3/162 (1/54th) of his salary is taxed in/to the state of Wisconsin. Not to mention 1/2 the salaries of our own multimillionaire athletes and full salaries of high ranking team officials being taxed to the state. That is millions in revenue that isn't just shifted from one place to another locally, and would be lost if the team was gone. The Bucks used this as an argument for public funding for their new arena.

 

That said, your other points are valid. At the end of the day though, just like free agency...all it takes is one. If one other city says they'll help pay for your stadium, then it's pay up or lose out. It does appear there is a shift away from cities letting teams hold them hostage though.

 

I'm not sure about this either but I remember hearing about it. It's probably highly dependent on the state. Some states don't even have income tax. Also--the key number is the portion of the salaries that are paid through investments coming from out of state, which is hard to estimate. But it is certainly more for a small market.

 

I thought the arguments for the Bucks arena were compelling. The NBA is a global brand and there is a tremendous benefit for a small city like Milwaukee to have an NBA team. Many more outside investment opportunities compared to predominantly domestic sports like the NFL and MLB. Not to mention that arena-related money was going to be needed no matter what as the BC had a ton of backlogged maintenance.

[jerichoholicninja]

The only net income to the local area in the long run would be if dollars from out of state are coming in. Otherwise you are just redistributing money from the local economy. Bowling alleys pay taxes too.

 

As I understand it - and someone correct me if I'm wrong - visiting athletes pay a prorated amount of income taxes in whichever state they are playing in. So if Bryce Harper plays 3 games in Milwaukee this year, 3/162 (1/54th) of his salary is taxed in/to the state of Wisconsin. Not to mention 1/2 the salaries of our own multimillionaire athletes and full salaries of high ranking team officials being taxed to the state. That is millions in revenue that isn't just shifted from one place to another locally, and would be lost if the team was gone. The Bucks used this as an argument for public funding for their new arena.

 

That said, your other points are valid. At the end of the day though, just like free agency...all it takes is one. If one other city says they'll help pay for your stadium, then it's pay up or lose out. It does appear there is a shift away from cities letting teams hold them hostage though.

 

In Wisconsin yes. Not necessarily in other states. I remember the MLB All Star game in Miller Park being a huge tax boon for the state.

[fondybrewfan]

So these pro athletes have to file income tax return in like 20 different states every year? Yikes.

[tmwiese55]

But they do generate a bunch in taxes. Yes the local economy impact theory that it creats a bunch of extra revenue for business in the area seems to be discredited. But the team paying taxes and the players paying taxes adds up to quite a lot of money each year. Plus of course the stadium project itself would inject a bunch of money into local construction related companies and jobs.

 

Think about it this way--they could spend $500 million in public dollars on literally anything they want. They could build new schools, libraries, highways, parks, bridges, whatever. They could build a giant pyramid. Or a sports stadium. All of those generate construction companies and jobs.

 

The only net income to the local area in the long run would be if dollars from out of state are coming in. Otherwise you are just redistributing money from the local economy. Bowling alleys pay taxes too.

 

Do bowling alley's have hundreds of millions of income/revenue they're paying taxes on and employees paying employees 100 mil who are paying taxes? The revenue doesn't only come from the spending of local citizens on tix/food (which in theory people would spend on other entertainment), it's the TV rights etc that is the big payer and that isn't coming for bowling allyes and libraries. That's a big difference. Income tax from the players alone would be 10s of millions of dollars each year.

 

The construction point you make is valid though if it's all public money then you can spend that on anything. In the current climate no way it should 100% be public money, you should at least be getting something from private investment that could make it profitable to the area (similar to the MKE mixed funding setup).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating that public should pay for stadiums or that this extra money would justify 100% paying for it. I actually wish there was a way to make it all private, some kind of joint law or rule by the leagues agreed upon. But if that's not the case there is a balance that can work and it is true that they do make money for the state/area. Just not in the way they like to hype as if hotels, restaurants, local business all of a sudden get drastically better. Something like what happend for the Bucks seems like a reasonable middle type ground.

[tmwiese55]

Yes the way you guys are describing taxes is generally how it works for the players. A couple states, pretty sure TN is one, even put in a kind of shady tax law to get even more from them. So pro athletes, musicians, etc get taxed drastically higher % on this type of income. Of course non income tax states like TX and FL are different though.

[jerichoholicninja]

So these pro athletes have to file income tax return in like 20 different states every year? Yikes.

 

I'm sure their agents have someone do it for them but it does seem pretty ridiculous. A guy like Ryan Braun probably doesn't know or really care all that much but someone like Eric Sogard who's not making much (relatively speaking) and is playing in both major and minor league cities that is probably a very expensive headache to deal with.

[homer]

So these pro athletes have to file income tax return in like 20 different states every year? Yikes.

 

I'm sure their agents have someone do it for them but it does seem pretty ridiculous. A guy like Ryan Braun probably doesn't know or really care all that much but someone like Eric Sogard who's not making much (relatively speaking) and is playing in both major and minor league cities that is probably a very expensive headache to deal with.

 

 

I bet the players union gives them advice and/or associates with people to help them out.

[JimH5]

I don't have an issue with public financing for a stadium. Milwaukee County Stadium and Miller Park were public projects.

 

I think the teams should have some skin in it, along with a commitment to stay at least as long as there is debt on the facility, but we are not "building facilities for rich owners" as much as we are building places for us to watch major league baseball.

 

If citizens of the Tampa/St. Pete area want a baseball facility, they can build one.

[owbc]

I don't have an issue with public financing for a stadium. Milwaukee County Stadium and Miller Park were public projects.

 

I think the teams should have some skin in it, along with a commitment to stay at least as long as there is debt on the facility, but we are not "building facilities for rich owners" as much as we are building places for us to watch major league baseball.

 

If citizens of the Tampa/St. Pete area want a baseball facility, they can build one.

 

That's fair. Although stadium taxes almost never have majority support. Miller Park certainly didn't have the majority of public votes in the stadium financing district, despite the relatively small tax amount.

 

More recently the St. Louis Rams didn't even bother to put their stadium proposal to a vote, which is required by law in some municipalities in that area.

[fondybrewfan]

I am still trying to figure out how the Atlanta Braves financing with Cobb County basically go approved behind closed doors with no public input of any kind. That deal looked and still looks awfully sketchy.

[chuckiehacks]

I am convinced Ybor City is not even a real place.

 

Clearly the center of the Venn diagram of Brewers message board fans and Hold Steady fans is smaller than I thought.

 

*puts on the Hold Steady.

[jerichoholicninja]

I am still trying to figure out how the Atlanta Braves financing with Cobb County basically go approved behind closed doors with no public input of any kind. That deal looked and still looks awfully sketchy.

 

Government. Corrupt at all levels and irrespective of whatever party is in control. That's how.

[JCREW]

Clearly the center of the Venn diagram of Brewers message board fans and Hold Steady fans is smaller than I thought.

 

*puts on the Hold Steady.

 

 

We had some massive nights...

 

(you're not alone)

[dlk9s]

As a Cobb County resident, on the one hand it is pretty cool having the stadium in my backyard (it's like if the Brewers built a stadium in Bayside or Mequon - how crazy fun would that be for people in the area?) and the stadium and surrounding restaurants/shops is really nice. On the other hand, it really is frustrating that it was basically a smoky back room deal and I believe it may result in my kid's little league park being closed because of lack of funds (that were diverted to the stadium).

 

For the record, I liked Turner Field and had no problem driving down there. It was easy to get to and parking was no problem.

[owbc]

As a Cobb County resident, on the one hand it is pretty cool having the stadium in my backyard (it's like if the Brewers built a stadium in Bayside or Mequon - how crazy fun would that be for people in the area?) and the stadium and surrounding restaurants/shops is really nice. On the other hand, it really is frustrating that it was basically a smoky back room deal and I believe it may result in my kid's little league park being closed because of lack of funds (that were diverted to the stadium).

 

For the record, I liked Turner Field and had no problem driving down there. It was easy to get to and parking was no problem.

 

One has to wonder what the long-term implications of having a dark shadow over the whole thing will be. The attendance boost from the move was unimpressive at best and the seeds of discord have certainly been sown.

[xisxisxis]

So these pro athletes have to file income tax return in like 20 different states every year? Yikes.

 

I'm sure their agents have someone do it for them but it does seem pretty ridiculous. A guy like Ryan Braun probably doesn't know or really care all that much but someone like Eric Sogard who's not making much (relatively speaking) and is playing in both major and minor league cities that is probably a very expensive headache to deal with.

 

 

I bet the players union gives them advice and/or associates with people to help them out.

I'm sure 99% of the details fall on the Brewers as they need to provide a W2 to each player for their respective pay for each state and for withholding. A state IRS will go after an employer 100 times before they go after an individual. Any CPA would then process through the W2s and make sure the taxes are paid/refunded accordingly. It's complicated, not difficult.

[And That]

I am convinced Ybor City is not even a real place.

 

Clearly the center of the Venn diagram of Brewers message board fans and Hold Steady fans is smaller than I thought.

 

*puts on the Hold Steady.

Craig Finn sounds like he's singing with marbles in his mouth. Tried, but pass.