Time to talk about future at SS?

[Fear The Chorizo]

Arcia was almost 6 years younger than the average PCL player the 3/4 season he played in CO Springs. Since the glove was what drove him to AAA at such a young age, him OPS-ing around 750 as a SS there is much better than 'incredibly mediocre'...Nate Orf's current OPS in CO Springs is 0.760 and many have been pleading for him to get a shot in the major leagues primarily due to his offensive numbers there as a 28 yr old.

 

When a player is trying to make adjustments to his swing/approach, attempting to do so at the game's highest level with pitchers who have the stuff and command to constantly attack your weakness is often very ugly. Just ask Kyle Schwarber about it around this time last year. In game at bats wind up with a hitter getting stuck in between his initial approach that's still ingrained to his muscle memory (it was good enough to get a hitter to the major leagues, after all), and pieces of what he's working on over a limited basis between games. Arcia can't just spend 8 hours in a cage swinging a bat or tracking pitches every day in his current role in Milwaukee if they expect him to have enough energy to provide quality defense at SS.

[clancyphile]

Arcia was almost 6 years younger than the average PCL player the 3/4 season he played in CO Springs. Since the glove was what drove him to AAA at such a young age, him OPS-ing around 750 as a SS there is much better than 'incredibly mediocre'...Nate Orf's current OPS in CO Springs is 0.760 and many have been pleading for him to get a shot in the major leagues primarily due to his offensive numbers there as a 28 yr old.

 

When a player is trying to make adjustments to his swing/approach, attempting to do so at the game's highest level with pitchers who have the stuff and command to constantly attack your weakness is often very ugly. Just ask Kyle Schwarber about it around this time last year. In game at bats wind up with a hitter getting stuck in between his initial approach that's still ingrained to his muscle memory (it was good enough to get a hitter to the major leagues, after all), and pieces of what he's working on over a limited basis between games. Arcia can't just spend 8 hours in a cage swinging a bat or tracking pitches every day in his current role in Milwaukee if they expect him to have enough energy to provide quality defense at SS.

 

Which is what Colorado Springs is for.

[YelichPosse]

Seems the consensus is about 50-50 for long term Arcia at short.

 

I guess the thing is, can you be as lost as he is and "get it back".

 

I agree it needs to happen down at AAA. And hope that doesn't break his confidence more than it already has been broken. Really does suck the way the injuries have shaken out and prevented him from going down for a month or two to do that.

 

I'm still curious if you dangle him for Machado in a deal. KNowing what COULD happen with him in the long run. I guess is that a chance we would take? Not to say that he's even somebody Baltimore would be interested in.

 

For me it's just frustrating how he "looks" at the plate. Swinging 3-0, half waving the bat at pitches that would hit a lefthanded hitter, things like that which seem to be more than minor adjustments. Have me concerned with his "eye" at the plate. That's something that can't be taught or fixed.

[jerichoholicninja]

One good season, followed by an incredibly mediocre season at a place and league where anybody can put up a .750 OPS is doing very little in my book. His season at Biloxi doesn't fall in line with anything else he's done at any level.

 

I fail to see any of the adjustments he's supposedly made. Yes, I remember a lot of times last year where he was driving the ball the other way but all I see this year is a guy flailing away at anything within a foot of the plate.

 

I get it, you can wipe away an entire season if it doesn't fit an agenda.

 

He has made adjustments, which is easy to see if you compare his pre-pitch movement today vs earlier in the year. Plus, both CC and Coles have said they're working on some things, including focusing on the opposite field.

 

You may want to be sure before you question a player's devotion. Otherwise it's a very cheap shot to take at a player, you're better than that.

 

Not questioning his devotion, questioning his willingness to make changes, which a valid question with a lot of the hitters on this team. A lot of the same crappy approaches from the same guys the last couple years.

[TooLiveBrew]

One good season, followed by an incredibly mediocre season at a place and league where anybody can put up a .750 OPS is doing very little in my book. His season at Biloxi doesn't fall in line with anything else he's done at any level.

 

I fail to see any of the adjustments he's supposedly made. Yes, I remember a lot of times last year where he was driving the ball the other way but all I see this year is a guy flailing away at anything within a foot of the plate.

But it does match the profile of the type of upside prospect analysts felt he'd have, even prior to his Biloxi season.

 

I understand being frustrated with Arcia now, and I am as well. But I'm also not writing him off for the future & I'm certainly not in agreement that his MiLB time doesn't give room for optimism. He was younger for each level & all the way up the chain scout/prospect watchers loved his swing. I think it's very reasonable to think he can make the adjustments needed, I just hope that can happen this season.

[MoreTrife]

Any legitimacy to Jake Hagers numbers??

[YelichPosse]

Any legitimacy to Jake Hagers numbers??

 

unfortunately he's a 25 year old who basically was demoted from AAA after last year, I don't believe he has much stock

[MadScientist]

Seems the consensus is about 50-50 for long term Arcia at short.

 

I guess the thing is, can you be as lost as he is and "get it back".

 

I'm still curious if you dangle him for Machado in a deal. KNowing what COULD happen with him in the long run. I guess is that a chance we would take? Not to say that he's even somebody Baltimore would be interested in.

 

There have been many cases where a lost player has found it (see Segura), so it can be done. Only time will tell if it works out for Arcia.

 

The question is Machado enough put the Brewers over the top. The pitching for the Brewers has been good enough that I'd consider it if the plus in the Arcia + package isn't too steep. Let Orf and Dubon duke it out next year if they can't sing Machado to an extension.

[Jenkins5]

Any legitimacy to Jake Hagers numbers??

 

Tough to say, highly regarded Top 30 draft prospect coming out of high school. He rose to AA by 21 & hit .270 with .700OPS. Missed age 22 season & last few seasons he has struggled in AA & AAA. Never hit like he has since rookie ball. Some guys are late bloomers & maybe he is finally coming into his own. Track record doesn’t support it but he could be something.

 

Arcia was growing every season leading to AA outburst. People may overlook BC performance but what him & Taylor did there was extremely difficult considering it was the death place to most all bats. He was incredibly young at every level even after losing a season after great DSL 1st year. Issue is Brewers rushed him when he wasn’t ready. He was not doing great in CS & they called him up. Last year he gave some hope of potential. This year he has just been bad. Until he is able to go down and work on his struggles.... he won’t get back on track. He has too much talent to give up on but he can not help offensively right now

[FVBrewerFan]

Any legitimacy to Jake Hagers numbers??

 

unfortunately he's a 25 year old who basically was demoted from AAA after last year, I don't believe he has much stock

 

Yea, he was demoted last year. But now we're talking about this year. 25 in AA is a little old but his numbers look great, especially the power. Out of Orf, Moore, Hager I would say Hager is the most intriguing to me. (Orf isn't on the radar.)

 

But without seeing any of them play, hard for me to have a strong opinion that any of them should get a shot. And with Miller coming up soon, not sure I see the point in finding out.

[xisxisxis]

I get it, you can wipe away an entire season if it doesn't fit an agenda.

 

I don't think anyone is entirely throwing out one season. When there's an outlier you have to weight it based on the other data. If one season is great and 1 is average you can't weight either, as you get 1 season standing out from the others, statistically, it should be weighted more heavily down, but since it's real data you can never just throw it out. When the outlier occurred is also part of the discussion. We are now looking at an outlier that's 4-5 years past.... That starts to negate it's value too...

 

I don't care whether his numbers were better than Alcides Escobar in the minors because right now, in the Majors where it matters, he's hitting just like Escobar and is putting up offense that is offensive. His defense does not counter his abysmal offense and even if he was rushed by the Brewers, they still need to get value out of him because they are in the unexpected and fortunate position of contending now and not in 2 years. Stearns needs to adapt and either send him down to see if he can straighten out or put up with the SS black hole and address the black hole at C when Pina is in their because 3+ automatic outs in the lineup will continue to hamper this dysfunctional offense...

[danzig6767]

Orlando has very done very little in the minors as a hitter and has looked like crap at the plate the last 3 months. It's not like you can say he's got a good swing or a good approach so the hits will come. Everything looks terrible. He needs a total rebuild as a hitter. I'm guessing (hoping) the coaching staff has been trying to do that all year and he's made zero adjustments. I think that says all you need to know about him.

He had a very good year in his AA season, that's an entire year. He's had stretches in 2016 and 2017 where he hit very well. It's not like he has always been awful, and that's why some of us are holding out hope he can find that again.

 

And you're wrong about making zero adjustments. He is focusing on trying to go the opposite field, that's one adjustment. He has eliminated some of his pre-pitch movements in the box, that's another adjustment. Obviously needs to make other adjustments..

I do wonder if the Brewers coaching staff tried to hard to force adjustments in his batting stance and other things, with the end result in Arcia being the mess that he currently is?

 

While he certainly had some struggles last year, he wasn't horrible.

 

.277 BA

.324 OBP

.407 SLG

.731 OPS

15 HR

34 XBH

 

We'd be thrilled right now had he repeated something around those numbers given the rest of the roster this year. Arcia will likely always struggle with plate discipline, but with his defensive abilities, if he can hit like last year, i think he's an asset regardless if he wouldn't be as good overall as we wished for.

 

Tinkering with how a young hitter hits can sometimes really help, just look at Segura since leaving the Brewers. The reverse can also happen where a young guy becomes a mess and is totally lost at the plate.

[tmwiese55]

Right, with his D you just need basic competency out him on O and your fine. Those numbers last year would be great, but a notch below would be fine too. Say 255/305 type with around 700 ops. Fine, you just can't be a Pitcher at the plate.

[502 to Right]

If I was the GM I'd trade for Jose Iglesias of the Tigers. He can hold down SS for the remainder of 2018 and they can send Arcia down to AAA to work on his hitting in a lower stress environment.

 

Iglesias is an elite defender and his bat, while nothing special, is a great improvement over the black hole that is Arcia in the lineup right now.

[MadThinker88]

If I was the GM I'd trade for Jose Iglesias of the Tigers. He can hold down SS for the remainder of 2018 and they can send Arcia down to AAA to work on his hitting in a lower stress environment.

 

Iglesias is an elite defender and his bat, while nothing special, is a great improvement over the black hole that is Arcia in the lineup right now.

 

As a bridge guy, I would agree that Iglesias makes some sense. Hopefully the cost (to acquire) should not be too bad.

 

That said, if the Tigers want too much or we are thinking of extending him (a Boras client) for a more integral role in 209, I would pass...

Something about missing a season due to shine splints (2014) still does not sit well with me...

[Eye Black]

I hadn’t heard this claim before, from a recent Ken Rosenthal FOX Sports video segment:

 

“Orlando Arcia came into Spring Training out of shape in the opinion of some with the club.”

[Austin Tatious]

Yeah, that got my attention too. Rosenthal obviously has good sources too.

[502 to Right]

I don't think Arcia is a lost cause. But the Brewers shouldn't waste any more plate appearances on him this year. Trade for competent stop-gap for 2018 and send Arcia to AAA to get himself right.

 

And by competent stop-gap I don't mean DFA flunkies who can't truly play the position at a MLB-level (I'm looking at you Brad Miller).

[pacopete4]

Brad Miller can’t come soon enough.

[ewitkows]

Brad Miller is not the answer at SS. He hasn't played there in 2 years and he wasnt good when he did play. There's a reason he's been playing 2nd and 1st base.

[JohnBriggs12]

I hadn’t heard this claim before, from a recent Ken Rosenthal FOX Sports video segment:

 

“Orlando Arcia came into Spring Training out of shape in the opinion of some with the club.”

 

Very interesting. I think it points to what really could be the source of his problems and that's attitude. Arcia has always presented himself as a confident and sometimes cocky player. That's fine to a point. The game appeared to come easy to him and after his success in 2017, he may have just took things for granted. Now he's struggling big time likely for the first time ever. If he learns from it and puts in the work, he can emerge a better player. Problem for the Brewers is they need production now. He needs to be humbled and go back to AAA for more than just a few games and work on his craft. Brewers can give him a mulligan for 2018 and hope he returns in 2019 ready for a big season. For now though they have Perez, and at some point Saladino and possibly Miller.

[JohnBriggs12]

Any legitimacy to Jake Hagers numbers??

 

unfortunately he's a 25 year old who basically was demoted from AAA after last year, I don't believe he has much stock

 

Hager was drafted in the first round out of high school, and had some success his first couple years as a pro as a teenager. Then things got tougher for him. He likely always has had the talent to put up the numbers he is this year. I wouldn't write him off. Some guys take longer to mature.

[Outlander]

Brad Miller can’t come soon enough.

Brad Miller continues to show he isn't the present or future at SS. Glad they sent him to AAA to prove how horrible he is there. I actually would love if the Brewers give up any hope of him playing SS and just have Miller replace Sogard on the roster. The Brewers can just do what they did yesterday with Perez at SS until/if they get an actual upgrade at SS.

[pacopete4]

Brad Miller can’t come soon enough.

Brad Miller continues to show he isn't the present or future at SS. Glad they sent him to AAA to prove how horrible he is there. I actually would love if the Brewers give up any hope of him playing SS and just have Miller replace Sogard on the roster. The Brewers can just do what they did yesterday with Perez at SS until/if they get an actual upgrade at SS.

 

Perez being hot right now buys Miller time to get acclimated. It won’t last. Perez is what he is. We will see Miller soon.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Brad Miller can’t come soon enough.

Brad Miller continues to show he isn't the present or future at SS. Glad they sent him to AAA to prove how horrible he is there. I actually would love if the Brewers give up any hope of him playing SS and just have Miller replace Sogard on the roster. The Brewers can just do what they did yesterday with Perez at SS until/if they get an actual upgrade at SS.

 

Perez being hot right now buys Miller time to get acclimated. It won’t last. Perez is what he is. We will see Miller soon.

 

You are really digging your heels in on this one. I'm enjoying the back-and-forth it's producing