Time to talk about future at SS?

[adambr2]

As fun as it is to watch Arcia defensively at SS sometimes (though, to be honest, the tough dropped flies the last 2 nights by him are a play you'd like to see a defense only SS make), is about as not fun as it is to see him hit. You've kind of reached a point where only major injuries to all of our legitimate SS depth in the minors is the only thing keeping Arcia from toiling in Colorado Springs for the rest of the season.

 

Now Arcia may someday blossom, and you hope he does. He's still very young. But you have to wonder if there is any expectation of contention in the near future here, how long that leash is going to be.

 

Arcia doesn't need to be an offensive star, but he can't be a 2nd pitcher in the lineup. And currently getting on base less than 25% of the time, it's fair to call him that.

 

You've kind of reached a crossroads where you wonder where we go from here. Fortunately for Arcia, the only other legitimate healthy SS on the roster is Sogard, no real long-term threat to his job.

 

I never viewed Mauricio Dubon as anything more than a future utilityman, but I'm starting to wonder if he actually has a better chance of being what we hoped Orlando Arcia could be than Orlando Arcia does -- a high end glove with reasonable offensive skills and basepath speed.

[cesser000]

It's a damn shame that Dubon tore that ACL, because he certainly would've been called up to the bigs by now. He wasn't walking at all, but the .343 average and .574 slugging he was sporting at COS definitely warranted a look. I just hope he's able to come back fully next year from the injury.

 

When is Saladino coming back?

[pacopete4]

The future at SS is Orlando Arcia. The Brewers have made that pretty clear. The Brewers would be smart to get him to change his swing in the offseason and ride him and his defense out this year. While he’s not going to be an All Star bat, he shouldn’t be doing what he’s doing so far this season. It’s been a bit better as of late which is a good sign.

[jerichoholicninja]

The future at SS is Orlando Arcia. The Brewers have made that pretty clear. The Brewers would be smart to get him to change his swing in the offseason and ride him and his defense out this year. While he’s not going to be an All Star bat, he shouldn’t be doing what he’s doing so far this season. It’s been a bit better as of late which is a good sign.

 

I really hope that they've tried already. His swing and approach are terrible. I can't believe they would have watched him in the majors for 3 years and been fine with his hitting. So either they've said nothing to him or they've tried to get him to change and he's ignored it. Both are not good.

 

Personally, I've never been a huge fan of Arcia. The glove is great but he still botches the easiest plays and his bat is just pathetic. Having said that, I'm fine with him getting the most PT at SS until his team control is up or they find a better replacement.

[pacopete4]

The future at SS is Orlando Arcia. The Brewers have made that pretty clear. The Brewers would be smart to get him to change his swing in the offseason and ride him and his defense out this year. While he’s not going to be an All Star bat, he shouldn’t be doing what he’s doing so far this season. It’s been a bit better as of late which is a good sign.

 

I really hope that they've tried already. His swing and approach are terrible. I can't believe they would have watched him in the majors for 3 years and been fine with his hitting. So either they've said nothing to him or they've tried to get him to change and he's ignored it. Both are not good.

 

Personally, I've never been a huge fan of Arcia. The glove is great but he still botches the easiest plays and his bat is just pathetic. Having said that, I'm fine with him getting the most PT at SS until his team control is up or they find a better replacement.

 

His swing looks worse this year than I can ever remember. So off balance all the time. There’s fastballs down the middle that he has his butt falling backwards through the batters box. How in the world can you hit like that? Trick question, you can’t. And it’s showing up in the box score this season.

[MrTPlush]

I sure wouldn’t be making it my mission to find a long term replacement...I wouldn’t ignore the possibility if it came up.

 

They definitely should be looking for someone short term for the rest of the year if they want to complete and make the team better though. No need to ride him out during the season trying to figure it out.

[sveumrules]

Arcia had a 72 wRC+ in 930 career PAs coming into the day & outside of June of last year (326/370/478 in 100 PA) he hasn't really ever hit at all. The defense is obviously legit, but he clearly needs an overhaul in the box.

 

Granted they both had more success at the plate than Arcia has had thus far, but recent ex-Brewers Jean Segura (65 wRC+ in 1,141 PAs with MKE from 2014-15, 122 wRC+ in 1,532 PAs since) & Scooter Gennett (86 wRC+ in 933 PAs with MKE from 2015-16, 135 wRC+ in 748 PAs since) make me think it's probably too early too abandon all hope for Orlando. Or maybe he needs a change of scenery.

[jerichoholicninja]

Granted they both had more success at the plate than Arcia has had thus far, but recent ex-Brewers Jean Segura (65 wRC+ in 1,141 PAs with MKE from 2014-15, 122 wRC+ in 1,532 PAs since) & Scooter Gennett (86 wRC+ in 933 PAs with MKE from 2015-16, 135 wRC+ in 748 PAs since) make me think it's probably too early too abandon all hope for Orlando. Or maybe he needs a change of scenery.

 

I keep coming back to Alcides Escobar. Terrible hitter in Milwaukee. Terrible hitter in KC (outside of 1 season).

[pacopete4]

Age. These guys usually are the best 26-28 seasons. Arcia is 23. Patience has to win out if we want the benefits of him in our organization.

[MrTPlush]

Age. These guys usually are the best 26-28 seasons. Arcia is 23. Patience has to win out if we want the benefits of him in our organization.

 

So years of trash for him to maybe be a decent hitter for a few years?

 

Sounds like a good argument to find a new SS. We need a good SS now...not in three years. We aren’t exactly rebuilding anymore.

[pacopete4]

Age. These guys usually are the best 26-28 seasons. Arcia is 23. Patience has to win out if we want the benefits of him in our organization.

 

So years of trash for him to maybe be a decent hitter for a few years?

 

Sounds like a good argument to find a new SS. We need a good SS now...not in three years. We aren’t exactly rebuilding anymore.

 

Draft and develop. If you’re going to just say screw it when your prospects struggle, this “rebuild” won’t last very long. This team is doing just fine with him starting as long as the rest keep producing. We are one of the tops in the league at saving runs. This is very un-brewers like but it’s s big reason also why we are winning games. Arcia is a big part of that.

 

This is one of the problems with having this early rebuild success. It creates itches that probably shouldn’t be scratched.

[Ennder]

Age. These guys usually are the best 26-28 seasons. Arcia is 23. Patience has to win out if we want the benefits of him in our organization.

 

 

This isn't actually accurate. Most players have their best seasons 3-4 seasons after reaching the majors, age has little to do with it. As the game has gotten younger the peak age has gotten lower. Arcia is likely in his peak this season or next.

[pacopete4]

Age. These guys usually are the best 26-28 seasons. Arcia is 23. Patience has to win out if we want the benefits of him in our organization.

 

 

This isn't actually accurate. Most players have their best seasons 3-4 seasons after reaching the majors, age has little to do with it. As the game has gotten younger the peak age has gotten lower. Arcia is likely in his peak this season or next.

 

Eh, I don’t believe that at all. Maybe some do. But there are a lot of guys that break in early and it takes them til their mid 20’s to get going.

[MrTPlush]

Age. These guys usually are the best 26-28 seasons. Arcia is 23. Patience has to win out if we want the benefits of him in our organization.

 

So years of trash for him to maybe be a decent hitter for a few years?

 

Sounds like a good argument to find a new SS. We need a good SS now...not in three years. We aren’t exactly rebuilding anymore.

 

Draft and develop. If you’re going to just say screw it when your prospects struggle, this “rebuild” won’t last very long. This team is doing just fine with him starting as long as the rest keep producing. We are one of the tops in the league at saving runs. This is very un-brewers like but it’s s big reason also why we are winning games. Arcia is a big part of that.

 

This is one of the problems with having this early rebuild success. It creates itches that probably shouldn’t be scratched.

 

 

Don’t care who you are or what kind of prospect you were. If we are competing and said player is repping a 41 OPS+...bye. That is beyond pathetic.

 

Of course we already know how the Brewers feel, Arcia’s current production at the plate isn’t acceptable and not worth the defense. He would be at AAA right now if not for every possible option walking past a black cat and breaking a mirror in the same day.

[Mays Hayes]

Age. These guys usually are the best 26-28 seasons. Arcia is 23. Patience has to win out if we want the benefits of him in our organization.

 

So years of trash for him to maybe be a decent hitter for a few years?

 

Sounds like a good argument to find a new SS. We need a good SS now...not in three years. We aren’t exactly rebuilding anymore.

 

Draft and develop. If you’re going to just say screw it when your prospects struggle, this “rebuild” won’t last very long. This team is doing just fine with him starting as long as the rest keep producing. We are one of the tops in the league at saving runs. This is very un-brewers like but it’s s big reason also why we are winning games. Arcia is a big part of that.

 

This is one of the problems with having this early rebuild success. It creates itches that probably shouldn’t be scratched.

 

Right. He's 50 games into his season at 23 years old, and his only full year at age 22 hit 277 with 15 dingers... And plays great defense. I'm no where near moving on from him, he's still figuring things out... And hasnt been bad lately either.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

Sure seems like part of the problem is pitch selection. Arcia is behind 0-2 and 1-2 more than just about any hitter I've seen, and a good bit of that is chasing pitches in the dirt or well off the plate. Honestly, he looks jumpy to me this year, like he is up there just guessing.

 

I hope the few recent hits will help his confidence at least. I am certainly not ready to give up on him at 23.

[Montezuma]

Pressing and loss of focus in my opinion. 2 dropped flies in the outfield is unusual for Arcia. He does not seem humbled by his brief demotion to AAA. True it was brief, but still he needs to rise to the daily occasion of being in the big leagues. WAKE UP ORLANDO.

[PeaveyFury]

It's worth noting that despite his terrible offensive season, his defense is STILL so good that he's been above replacement level for the year. That may not be exciting to people who want every spot in the lineup to hit, but he hasn't been the problem that say catcher has been this year.

 

If the bat comes around at all, he'll be a well above-average SS without much debate, as he's already better than replacement level even now.

[pacopete4]

It's worth noting that despite his terrible offensive season, his defense is STILL so good that he's been above replacement level for the year. That may not be exciting to people who want every spot in the lineup to hit, but he hasn't been the problem that say catcher has been this year.

 

Play Kratz. Problem solved.

[wallus]

Even a .700 OPS from Arcia would make him incredibly valuable.

[Pugger]

Pressing and loss of focus in my opinion. 2 dropped flies in the outfield is unusual for Arcia. He does not seem humbled by his brief demotion to AAA. True it was brief, but still he needs to rise to the daily occasion of being in the big leagues. WAKE UP ORLANDO.

 

Somebody has to tell him he isn't the only defender out there. He doesn't have to go after every freaking fly ball. In the last 2 games he had no business trying to catch those when it is much easier for Cain.

[pacopete4]

Pressing and loss of focus in my opinion. 2 dropped flies in the outfield is unusual for Arcia. He does not seem humbled by his brief demotion to AAA. True it was brief, but still he needs to rise to the daily occasion of being in the big leagues. WAKE UP ORLANDO.

 

Somebody has to tell him he isn't the only defender out there. He doesn't have to go after every freaking fly ball. In the last 2 games he had no business trying to catch those when it is much easier for Cain.

 

I keep seeing this. Passing the blame on Arcia is ridiculous for those plays. If Cain can get them it is his flipping job to call off Arcia and take charge of the play. Anyone who has been around baseball for ten minutes knows this. Stop blaming Arcia for going after everything he can get his hands on. It’s his frigging job and it’s what you want out of your shortstop.

[PeaveyFury]

If Cain can get them it is his flipping job to call off Arcia and take charge of the play. Anyone who has been around baseball for ten minutes knows this.

 

This is fair and accurate. Cain should be calling Arcia off if he thinks it's his ball. If Arcia isn't letting up that's one thing, but Cain should be responsible for those fly balls.

[adambr2]

It's worth noting that despite his terrible offensive season, his defense is STILL so good that he's been above replacement level for the year. That may not be exciting to people who want every spot in the lineup to hit, but he hasn't been the problem that say catcher has been this year.

 

If the bat comes around at all, he'll be a well above-average SS without much debate, as he's already better than replacement level even now.

 

Depends on who you believe. BRef has him at 0.4. Fangraphs has him at -0.2.

[sveumrules]

FanGraphs has DRS & UZR going back to 2002. From then until 2017 there have been 2,402 individual player seasons that qualified for the batting title.

 

The lowest wRC+ mark for someone that ended up with a positive WAR in that time frame was (wait for it) Alcides Escobar in 2013, who ended up with 0.9 WAR despite his 49 wRC+.

 

I did find a handful of shortstop seasons that were around league average or better in terms of WAR despite limited offensive production over that timeframe, so there is at least a template for Orlando being a decent player even if he never realizes his full potential at the plate.

 

2005 Orlando Cabrera 80 wRC+, 3.0 WAR

2006 Adam Everett: 62 wRC+, 2.2 WAR

2007 Omar Vizquel: 60 wRC+, 2.0 WAR

2008 Orlando Cabrera: 85 wRC+, 3.3 WAR

2012 JJ Hardy, 78 wRC+, 2.3 WAR

2015 Andrelton Simmons: 81 wRC+, 3.1 WAR

2016 Freddy Galvis, 73 wRC+, 2.3 WAR

2016 Jose Iglesias, 72 wRC+, 2.0 WAR