Starters leashes

[JohnBriggs12]

Ok I get the pen was dynamic for two months, but Counsell's habit of removing starters when an opponent gets one runner on in the 6th inning of a close game even when the starter has only thrown around 80 pitches is starting to backfire. I didn't think there was any reason to remove Anderson on Friday nor Suter on Sunday. Anderson had thrown just 82 pitches and posted zeroes in the prior two innings. What he couldn't be counted on to get the third out that inning? He's the ace. What kind of message is being sent?

 

The Suter decision is more understandable because there was nobody out and Suter typically doesn't last beyond the 5th, but Suter had only allowed 3 hits, the runner on base Sanchez was a threat to steal and Suter controls the run game very well, and he had only thrown 85 pitches. Not only that, the best hitter the Sox had on the bench was Palka, who's a LH hitter.

 

It's one thing to rely on Jeffress to get out of jams or to bring in Hader, but Albers? Albers has been a solid reliever but he's not a shutdown reliever. That he did it twice in this series is confounding.

 

It's time to ask the starters to get through 6 innings except in those instances where Hader is available to go multiple innings or the starter's pitch count is high but not when one runner reaches base after the 5th.

[adambr2]

Anderson isn't the ace. We don't have one.

 

Even after the 2 meltdowns Albers has an ERA of 2.05 and WHIP under 1. So yes he's been very good. It didn't work out because it was bound to not work out eventually. There's no certainty it would have worked out better if they had stuck with the starters. Look what happened to Shields when Renteria stuck with him too long.

 

They have a philosophy that they've had all season and it has worked very well for 2 months. They aren't going to change it based on a 2 game sample of bullpen struggles that were inevitable at some point.

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't know how two bad outings from the pen qualifies as starting to backfire. Our starting staff is competent but not dominant. I think at this point, with this staff, pitch count is less relevant than number of times through the order. They have the stuff to get hitters out twice but struggle the third time through. So why let them when we have a pen capable of covering four innings on a regular basis?

[markedman5]

I don't know how two bad outings from the pen qualifies as starting to backfire. Our starting staff is competent but not dominant. I think at this point, with this staff, pitch count is less relevant than number of times through the order. They have the stuff to get hitters out twice but struggle the third time through. So why let them when we have a pen capable of covering four innings on a regular basis?

 

Yep.

 

Just because Albers had a couple of bad outings doesn't mean the strategy isn't sound. If Suter would have been left in and given up a hope run in the 6th people would have been roasting CC for not taking him out.

 

His thinking is sound......sometimes it isn't going to work.

 

Relax and enjoy the season. Players will decide our fate...not the manager.

[chewy522]

I had a similar reaction at first, but I think it's because we have been conditioned to focus so much on pitch count over the years. The stats for pitchers facing a lineup the 3rd time can't be disputed. It's pretty sound strategy to pull them at the first sign of trouble, regardless of pitch count. Our record is exibit A for this. Now, if we were spending $20 million on a starting pitcher aka Scherzer or Kershaw...that would be a different story.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

People are going to start saying this sooner or later. That the Cubs are gaining ground only makes it louder. I, for one, do not expect the Brewers to hold first place until October. I don't think they'll win the division anyway and never did. But I do think they are a very good team.

 

I think they're going to be in the play-in game and anything can happen at that point.

[FVBrewerFan]

Anderson had thrown just 82 pitches and posted zeroes in the prior two innings. What he couldn't be counted on to get the third out that inning? He's the ace. What kind of message is being sent?

 

I agree with what's already been said, but I'll add a response to this part. First, as Adam said, Anderson is not an Ace. What kind of message was sent? That they're putting players in the best position to win games. And, by the way, I'll take a wild guess and say all of this was discussed with Anderson and the rest of the pitching staff back in ST or earlier. Chase Anderson had a really good season last year and parlayed that into a nice new contract. That's the only message he cares about.

[rickh150]

I don't know how two bad outings from the pen qualifies as starting to backfire. Our starting staff is competent but not dominant. I think at this point, with this staff, pitch count is less relevant than number of times through the order. They have the stuff to get hitters out twice but struggle the third time through. So why let them when we have a pen capable of covering four innings on a regular basis?

 

Relax and enjoy the season. Players will decide our fate...not the manager.

 

 

Oh, the manager is included in our fate. CC has done an outstanding job, don't get me wrong....but his brain and heart are a large part of this engine moving forward. Those are not excluded. And his butt is on the line.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Nothing of CC's is on the line, yet. He's got one of the safest seats in MLB. It would take major regression/clubhouse split for anything to happen to him. They could finish below .500 and I still think he'd be back.

[JosephC]

162 games / 5 starters = 32.4 starts * 95 pitches per start = 3078 pitches

 

162 games / 4 starters = 40.5 starts. 3078 pitches / 40.5 starts = 76 pitches per start.

 

If pitchers are getting pulled consistently before the 85 pitch mark, then it makes sense to remove the weakest link in the rotation and just go down to a 4-man rotation. Since the Brewers seem to be in favor of a 13-man pitching staff, that gives them 9 relievers which would give Counsell tremendous flexibility when navigating the 5th/6th innings of ballgames.

[FVBrewerFan]

162 games / 5 starters = 32.4 starts * 95 pitches per start = 3078 pitches

 

162 games / 4 starters = 40.5 starts. 3078 pitches / 40.5 starts = 76 pitches per start.

 

If pitchers are getting pulled consistently before the 85 pitch mark, then it makes sense to remove the weakest link in the rotation and just go down to a 4-man rotation. Since the Brewers seem to be in favor of a 13-man pitching staff, that gives them 9 relievers which would give Counsell tremendous flexibility when navigating the 5th/6th innings of ballgames.

 

They have been doing this already. I don't think it's as simple as going with either 4 or 5 all year, but there have been times (including right now) that they've used 4 when there's an off day to help them out. That has allowed them to have an extra arm in the pen, or an extra bat when the DH is in play.

[chuckiehacks]

Starting pitchers have routines between starts that aren't easily changed because they threw 80 pitches instead of 100. Moving everyone to consistently pitch on 3-days rest is a huge change.

[Thurston Fluff]

I had a similar reaction at first, but I think it's because we have been conditioned to focus so much on pitch count over the years. The stats for pitchers facing a lineup the 3rd time can't be disputed. It's pretty sound strategy to pull them at the first sign of trouble, regardless of pitch count. Our record is exibit A for this. Now, if we were spending $20 million on a starting pitcher aka Scherzer or Kershaw...that would be a different story.

 

Both of these are spot on. Pitch counts used to be about not letting pitchers throw too many pitchers. Somewhere the 100 pitch count also turned into how long they should go. The new way of thinking seems more about times through the order vs pitch count. I get why Briggs is upset about it since he tends to be more of a traditionalist in such matters but times are changing. I also agree that if we have a stud capable of going through the order more times to let him do so. I have little doubt the Brewers would. The way Counsell is using this staff seems to be more about what he has to work with than some sort of predetermined strategy he'll use for every staff.

[JosephC]

Starting pitchers have routines between starts that aren't easily changed because they threw 80 pitches instead of 100. Moving everyone to consistently pitch on 3-days rest is a huge change.

 

Not necessarily this year but definitely something to think about in the future. If starters are only averaging about 80 pitches per inning, it just makes sense to subtract five off that total and eliminate the weakest link from the equation.

 

For the record, so far this year:

Chacin = 82.5 pitches per start

Anderson = 88.5 pitches per start

Suter = 85.5 pitches per start

Guerra = 89.1 pitches per start

Davies = 92.3 pitches per start

 

So currently the Brewer starters are well over the 80-85 pitch mark. But if that total starts falling the later it gets into the season, I think it's a legitimate discussion for next year.