2018-06-02: Brewers (Chacín) at White Sox (Shields) 1:10 PM CDT [Brewers win, 5-0]

[MrTPlush]

Man, thats not fair that we have to face kluber and carassco again.

 

“Hold my beer.” -Suter

[adambr2]

Congrats to them. I'll take our overall body of work over theirs.

 

If you think that's management and not talent, good luck...

 

Point being, short starts are clearly an organizational philosophy, we can see that by now. And it's worked very well.

 

And I will continue to point out that short starts for the sake of short starts is absolutely stupid. Counsell always errs on the side of yanking a starter even when he is pitching just fine. Chacin had a boatload of quality starts last year (i.e. >= 6IP and 3 or less runs), but he gets yanked first baserunner in the sixth, repeatedly. Absolutely silly... And when the bullpen is shot in August and September, I won't be hear to say I told you so, because that's not allowed here... heaven forbid....

 

 

It's both talent and management, obviously. And you honestly think they go with short starts just for the sake of short starts?

 

Come on now. There is always a start here or there where I would have stuck with the starter another batter or two, and in general I don't like seeing Logan at all right now, but with these results you're STILL not buying into how the pitching staff is managed? Really?!

 

There is ridiculous amounts of data and analytics that go into these philosophies. Brought to you by the guys who have pretty much pushed all the right buttons since the rebuild began. I guarantee you that they have a long-term plan, for this season and beyond. They are not just doing this day by day until the middle of August when the pen falls apart and they say, "Oh crap, now what?"

 

Would you be happier if we were 30-28 and we were losing a lot of 4-3 and 5-4 games when our starter gives up 2-3 runs in the 6th or 7th when they run out of gas?

[PinaMadness]

I thought Arcia was going to push Shaw out of the way again. Surprised he didn't.

[wildcat83]

Man, thats not fair that we have to face kluber and carassco again.

 

We hit those two but miss most teams aces for next handful of series.

[stalton]

Nice win, Brewers!

[pacopete4]

The home run reliant Brewers avoid losing two in a row.

 

And the Pirates just tied it in the 9th against the Cards.

[adambr2]

Good seeing Taylor work out of a big jam. Confidence booster.

[xisxisxis]

I'm not sure it's just for the sake of short starts. I'm guessing Chacin has issues when he gets to the third/fourth time through the lineup.

 

The thing that doesn't make any sense to me is why 3/4 times through a lineup is some magic point. I think it has a lot more to do with how many pitches a typical hitter sees against a pitcher and when the pitcher begins to tire. I can't see how a player who jumps on a pitcher early in the count the first three times through and only sees 7 total pitches from a specific pitcher has any better chance on the 8th, 9th or 10th pitch (lets say the hypothetical 4th time through). It's likely that pitches seen by a batter is a much more likely determinant of how effective he will be the next time he sees the pitcher. It's partly why I always whine about our hitters that don't work a count and go up and hack away early in the count. The more pitches a batter sees, the more likely he will be effective the next AB, and the next... It would be nice to see data on how a batter performs each pitch against a pitcher to see how their performance (and the pitchers) tracks over "time"... I think that would be a clear way to evaluate when a pitcher is "done".

 

The biggest reason this pisses me off is that I have Chacin on several fantasy BBall teams all of which have QS as a stat...!!!!

[young guns]

The home run reliant Brewers avoid losing two in a row.

 

And the Pirates just tied it in the 9th against the Cards.

That didnt last long. First batter wong with the walkoff.

[YelichPosse]

Good game today. Need tomorrow too. Keep winning series and nobody catches us!

 

Only thing that sucked today was Arcia and his approach still, boy that Saladino injury looks like it’s an unfortunate thing.... who’d of thunk that a month ago even!?

[xisxisxis]

Come on now. There is always a start here or there where I would have stuck with the starter another batter or two, and in general I don't like seeing Logan at all right now, but with these results you're STILL not buying into how the pitching staff is managed? Really?!

 

Yep. I put 95% of the success on the talent/players and 5% on the management. All data points to the minimal impact a manager has on the teams OVERALL success. There was a link in one of the major league forum threads that the best managers have maybe a 4 WAR effect on the teams overall performance. That's over a season, so even if you assume CC is one of those elite managers, his impact so far is 1.33 WAR. Given that we missed the playoffs by 1 win last year, it is important to have a manager who is getting us a positive WAR and Counsell just seems to be another ex-player manager who manages by the same old cliches.

 

WRT pulling pitchers, Counsell's own comments are relevant - earlier in the year when questioned about taking Chacin out after 1 hitter in the 6th inning Counsell made a comment about he had determined going into the game, how many outs he would give Chacin. How does that comment have any relation to an approach or analytics that take into account what has happened during the game. As I pointed out earlier, Chacin had over 20 quality starts last year. He clearly has a track record that he can routinely go 6 IP and give up 3 or fewer runs. That is counter to the very way he has been treated this year. We have this lights out bullpen, but maybe they're only lights out because they can't take the stress of coming in with more than one runner on base... I do hope I am wrong on the bullpen being overworked come August and September and if it works out this year, hopefully we go deep into the playoffs, because there is some data that RP who are overworked usually have off years the next...

[adambr2]

Well, you have a right to your opinion, I just think its antiquated and I'm glad that Counsell has bought into more modern strategies.

 

Another thing you're disregarding is that the the starting rotation we have is not particularly good and the bullpen, by your own admission, is very talented.

 

So you're literally preferring them to take away innings from the much more talented group and giving them to the less talented arms.

 

If they followed that strategy and leaned heavily on our starters we'd likely not be much over .500. The pen is an enormous part of why we're 37-22.

 

Play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. We're not starting games with Chris Sale and Corey Kluber. Our best arms by far are in the pen.

[SomewhereInTime]

Congrats to them. I'll take our overall body of work over theirs.

 

If you think that's management and not talent, good luck...

 

Point being, short starts are clearly an organizational philosophy, we can see that by now. And it's worked very well.

 

And I will continue to point out that short starts for the sake of short starts is absolutely stupid. Counsell always errs on the side of yanking a starter even when he is pitching just fine. Chacin had a boatload of quality starts last year (i.e. >= 6IP and 3 or less runs), but he gets yanked first baserunner in the sixth, repeatedly. Absolutely silly... And when the bullpen is shot in August and September, I won't be hear to say I told you so, because that's not allowed here... heaven forbid....

 

 

It's both talent and management, obviously. And you honestly think they go with short starts just for the sake of short starts?

 

Come on now. There is always a start here or there where I would have stuck with the starter another batter or two, and in general I don't like seeing Logan at all right now, but with these results you're STILL not buying into how the pitching staff is managed? Really?!

 

There is ridiculous amounts of data and analytics that go into these philosophies. Brought to you by the guys who have pretty much pushed all the right buttons since the rebuild began. I guarantee you that they have a long-term plan, for this season and beyond. They are not just doing this day by day until the middle of August when the pen falls apart and they say, "Oh crap, now what?"

 

Would you be happier if we were 30-28 and we were losing a lot of 4-3 and 5-4 games when our starter gives up 2-3 runs in the 6th or 7th when they run out of gas?

 

A few points here to add here

 

This is not a 5 man rotation, we have been running with a 4 and swing all season long, meaning only using 5th starters when we have to. A guy like Chacin has made every start so far, sure there's worry about the bullpen running out of gas, but I think I would be more worried about the rotation being out of gas by the end of the year if we were doing this while letting starters throw 7 innings every start.

 

Also, to this point, Craig has done an excellent job of managing the bullpen, they are not overworked. Rarely have I seen a reliever go more than two days in a row and guys who go multiple innings almost always get at least the next day off.

 

Our best pitchers are in the bullpen, why wouldn't you want them pitching the most important innings instead of a tiring starter? Seven of the Eight pitchers in the pen right now are outstanding and I would trust to pitch in almost any situation.

[wallus]

If you look up you can see something falling back down to earth, Jesus Aguilar.

 

Good call,

[JosephC]

Anyone who likes these uniforms must be at least 40+. Only way you can look at them and like them is if you have some bias appreciation from your childhood etc.

 

Those stripes on the sleeves, belt area, and full powder blue is just awful. Amazing that was ever a good idea.

 

Looks infinitely better than most team's road uniforms these days. That horrid grey color looks just terrible. If I were lead dictator that might be the first thing that would be changed. Home uniforms = white. If team color is blue then road uniform = blue. If team color is red then road uniform = red. Grey only allowed if the team color was grey and the mascot was a concrete block.

[Jimbo]

I went to the game today, but misjudged the train times. Walked up the ramp to the seating bowl mid-first and felt like unexpectantly walking through a time tunnel to 1983 seeing the unies. Felt like 17 again.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Anyone watching cubs mets is getting a dose of what a game would look like if two April Brewer offenses faced off against each other...cubs with 17 stranded through 13 and just 1 run. Mets look like they'd need to get a run walked in to score ever again.

 

Something called Farrell has pitched like 6 shutout innings for the cubs by having the equivalent of a batting practice pitching repertoire with no screen for protection. The mets are terrible offensively right now...

[adambr2]

Seems vaguely familiar, pitched with the Astros I think?

[brooks_quichenick]

Just wanted to say that I love the powder blues and I wish they'd bust them out more often.

[TURBO]

Just wanted to say that I love the powder blues and I wish they'd bust them out more often.

 

agreed!