Milwaukee Bucks 2018 - 2019

[coolhandluke121]

Ugh, do we have to do the media conspiracy thing with everything?

 

It's not even remotely a conspiracy theory. Any media member would openly admit that they have to get clicks and write articles that people want to read. They will always milk things like the MVP debate as long as they can, even after Giannis has pulled ahead.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

That's such a cop out. Yes they have to get clicks, but that has not stopped the MVP pick from being super obvious in the past. I think it's a lot more likely given the offensive production he's put up and that the players voted on Harden, that a lot of people think Harden is the MVP. I really doubt that other than Skip Bayless and Colin Cowherd, guys are out there pretending Harden should be MVP to get clicks.

 

I get a little nauseated by the constant WI fan media hates us stuff. It is made in to being such a larger factor than it is.

[FVBrewerFan]

Only in bf.net can we have two guys argue for two pages on something they agree on.

[coolhandluke121]

It has nothing to do with media bias or conspiracy and I have no small market victim complex. If they can make a case for there being an MVP debate, they are going to. That happens all the time, and then the actual MVP vote is rarely in doubt.

 

Supposedly 9 out the 10 people who actually have a vote and went public with it have gone with Giannis, but I am having trouble finding that again. A quick Google search reveals a number of writers saying exactly what I am saying about defense and team play factors.

 

No FVBrewerFan, we aren't arguing about something we agree on. He thinks Harden is basically just as worthy as Giannis for MVP, and I don't agree at all.

[young guns]

Do we have to wait for the seeding to finalize before we get any specific timing on when we play, or are some of the days, at least, set?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Some teams are playing Saturday and I don't know that we have anything else yet

[OldSchoolSnapper]

It has nothing to do with media bias or conspiracy and I have no small market victim complex. If they can make a case for there being an MVP debate, they are going to. That happens all the time, and then the actual MVP vote is rarely in doubt.

 

Supposedly 9 out the 10 people who actually have a vote and went public with it have gone with Giannis, but I am having trouble finding that again. A quick Google search reveals a number of writers saying exactly what I am saying about defense and team play factors.

 

No FVBrewerFan, we aren't arguing about something we agree on. He thinks Harden is basically just as worthy as Giannis for MVP, and I don't agree at all.

 

There is an article from a day or two ago that goes into the deep analytics and makes the case for both, and from a strictly statistical standpoint Harden wins an it's not all that close. He wins a lot more categories when you stack them head to head. I think the writer ends up coming around to saying Giannis should still win. But this hands down it's Giannis thing is where I simply won't agree. And still won't if he ends up winning 3-1. The guys voting for Harden are right to do so if that's what they believe. It is not like voting for Paul George.

[FVBrewerFan]

Do we have to wait for the seeding to finalize before we get any specific timing on when we play, or are some of the days, at least, set?

 

Bucks play Saturday. Time/opponent TBD

[tmwiese55]

I agree it should be Giannis due to the long term held standard of importance placed on best player on best team. It's a different argument if you want to discuss if its BS to weigh that so heavily, but the reality is it's always been a big factor.

 

After that I see very strong cases for either and understand voting either way. I see no need to disparage Harden. I've long been a defender of him as people said he's a chucker and can't win going back several years. I'd often have to remind them he carried a garbage team with the shell of Howard to the final 4 several years ago. And of course he's kept winning ever since in spite of constant roster turnover around him.

 

I'd also guess those statistical type breakdowns just mentioned heavily skew towards offense. Whereas Giannis obviously has a massive edge on D. They're also skewed due to counting stats accrued by playing so many more minutes than Giannis. OF course I see how one could argue not playing as much makes you less valuable, and normally I'd agree if it was due to missing a big chunk of games due to injury. But when it's primarily because you're playing so well that you're blowing teams out a near historic level combined with resting games at the end of year due to having the best record locked up I don't think it should be held against someone.

[young guns]

There is an article from a day or two ago that goes into the deep analytics and makes the case for both, and from a strictly statistical standpoint Harden wins an it's not all that close.

Just curious, was it adjusted statistics or straight statistics.

[TURBO]

Any chance we can have a IGT thread for the Bucks playoff games?

[DuWayne Steurer]

Any chance we can have a IGT thread for the Bucks playoff games?

 

 

I'll make sure we at least have a pinned thread for each playoff series the Bucks are in.

 

Also, my god, Russell Westrbrook whines a lot.

[Baldkin]

Bucks vs Pistons Schedule:

 

6pm Sunday @Fiserv

7pm Wednesday @Fiserv

7pm Saturday @Detroit

7pm Monday @Detroit

Game 5/6/7: Wednesday/Friday/Sunday, times TBD

[HiAndTight]

The consensus I've read almost universally is that this is the rare year where they are truly 2 deserving guys.

 

The media always try to do that. Less debate = less clicks. They're trying to keep it a race, but I don't think there is one.

 

 

Well, the players disagree. They voted for Harden. The guys who actually play the game should be afforded a little credibility.

 

 

It seems like you're not happy with virtually every person agreeing with you unless they just parrot your own words.

 

Harden's year was historic. 36.5, 6.5/7.5, while being a very efficient scorer and leading his team to the best record in the NBA over the last4 months or whatever it was as his team was decimated by injuries, is impressive.

 

This isn't a media driven debate, this is a player driven debate. Two players had great years. You also seem to talk about Giannis coming into his own and ascending...etc..etc...it's an award for one year.

 

And while we ALL agree with you, you don't seem like you're totally happy until everyone agrees that the mere suggestion that Harden is at all MVP worthy is laughable!

[HiAndTight]

I just can't reward Harden for being a guy who can make a bunch of difficult shots that the best teams wouldn't want or need him to take in the first place.

 

I don't think I've seen it stated any better anywhere on the web with regard to this debate.

 

 

I have. Houston IS one of the best teams. There's an inference here that they're not. Harden scoring 36+ a game this year was all that more impressive when you look at how many guys went down for Houston and how great they finished the year.

 

But the statement itself is factually incorrect. This Houston team is one of the best teams in the NBA. I think most would agree they're the 2nd best team in the West. So kinda hard to say that the best teams wouldn't "want or need" him to take those shots in the first place.

 

Actually, not hard to say they wouldn't "Need" him to. Golden State would not NEED him to take those shots because they have a team with 5 guys who could very easily be on Team USA. 5 All NBA guys. The worst among them has been a multiple time DPOY.

 

The Houston team that was 11-14 needed Harden to take those tough shots and he did so and they were the best team in the NBA from that point on.

[HiAndTight]

Put him on GSW instead of Curry or Durant and they'd get worse. No place for that kind of ball-hogging on a fully functional offense. The value of that kind of ability to play hero-ball is totally dependent on needing hero-ball. A team that doesn't need that would make him an MVP afterthought. I think comparing him to Durant or Curry is informative. There you have 2 MVP's who found ways to adapt and still be among the 3 best offensive players in the game despite fewer fga's. They also have improved their defense a lot. I would easily take either one of them ahead of Harden when building a team from scratch, because I wouldn't want to be obligated to build a Harden-ball team to maximize his value.

I would also note that we saw the same thing in the all-star draft. Giannis and Lebron didn't care about Harden. Why would they, or any good team, want someone on the team whose greatness is somewhat dependent on the narrative that he has to play this way because the rest of his team isn't good? Now I know the all-star draft was mostly entertainment, but they were still paying respect to the guys they thought deserved it the most. This articles touches a little on what some other players think of Harden:

 

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26031800/giannis-harden-mvp-question-dividing-nba

 

 

Both of these are somehow stated as facts, but are anything but. Unless you saw Giannis or LeBron say "I don't care about Harden," I don't know how you can make that type of statement.

 

And saying if you put him on Golden State over Durant they'd get worse...is not really a strong argument. Durant is probably the best player in the NBA right now. Putting Giannis on Golden State would probably also make them a worse team right now.

 

As for the link, the players vote touches on what the players think of Harden. Not one name was behind any of those quotes. Why go back to an article written without one single player putting his name behind any quotes from the All Star break instead of the recent players vote that favored Harden?

[pacopete4]

The way NBA guys jog up and down the court they should be able to play back to back nights even in the playoffs.

[OnTheBlack]

The way NBA guys jog up and down the court they should be able to play back to back nights even in the playoffs.

 

Is this supposed to be in blue? Are you really inferring that basketball players don't exert that much energy during a game?

[Mr Southpaw]

The way NBA guys jog up and down the court they should be able to play back to back nights even in the playoffs.

 

It is like Goldilocks and the Three Bears...three days is way toooooo long. one day is toooooo short, and two days is just right.

 

I would like to see the NBA try to reward teams for not going to game seven. Maybe like scheduling Game 7 on Thursday or Friday nights then have Game 1 of the next series on Saturday or Sunday with an early start. They still get two nights, but the team that can finish off their opponent gets a minor advantage. I know, I know the NBA wants Game 7 because off the money.

[pacopete4]

The way NBA guys jog up and down the court they should be able to play back to back nights even in the playoffs.

 

Is this supposed to be in blue? Are you really inferring that basketball players don't exert that much energy during a game?

 

Somewhat blue. Just hard to watch NBA guys even in playoffs lollygag up and down the court.

[stoutdude04]

The way NBA guys jog up and down the court they should be able to play back to back nights even in the playoffs.

 

Is this supposed to be in blue? Are you really inferring that basketball players don't exert that much energy during a game?

 

Somewhat blue. Just hard to watch NBA guys even in playoffs lollygag up and down the court.

 

Hockey games are on if you want to see constant hustle.

[coolhandluke121]

 

And while we ALL agree with you, you don't seem like you're totally happy until everyone agrees that the mere suggestion that Harden is at all MVP worthy is laughable!

 

What do you mean I'm not happy? I just don't agree.

 

Let me try:

 

"It seems you won't be happy until I agree that Harden is also deserving of the MVP award."

 

See how that sounds? It's got nothing to do with whether you're happy or not. It's just not agreeing about Harden's accomplishments this year.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Is this supposed to be in blue? Are you really inferring that basketball players don't exert that much energy during a game?

 

Somewhat blue. Just hard to watch NBA guys even in playoffs lollygag up and down the court.

 

This is the reality of what the NBA promotes. They promote the individual and everyone wants to see stars play 35+ mpg. If they focused more on team play and having more interchangeable parts, they could give everyone more rest - like the Bucks do.

 

In Europe, my understanding is that the stars don't play as much, because they believe it's better to have a slightly inferior well-rested player than a player who has to pace himself to log so many minutes. But that would require everyone staying involved and being able to adapt their individual style to the team needs, or it falls apart. Being able to play as a cohesive team is why some international teams beat the U.S. in the early 2000's despite having only a few NBA players (most of them on the fringes) against a team of all-stars.

 

Someone said hockey has hustle, which kind of illustrates what I'm talking about. They have lines and make sure everyone gets enough rest. If more NBA teams do what the Bucks are doing, it could help usher in some changes in a copy-cat league. It would be kind of like the Brewers relying on bullpen depth to reduce the amount of times starters go 3 times through the order, even though the starters are ostensibly better pitchers than middle relievers.

[coolhandluke121]

Not a huge fan of ESPN, but I thought this was a great read:

 

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26495696/a-star-built-giannis-best-basketball-player-alive

 

The stuff at the end about scorers who don't play defense being chronically over-rated is (obviously) what I like most.

 

"No one will totally agree on what is valuable in the game of basketball. While the analytics era of the NBA has helped us quantify value in dozens of new ways, our accounting framework and discourse still remain skewed toward offensive numbers. It's within this environment that terrible defensive players still get paid millions of dollars. It's within this framework that the stank of superstars on the defensive end gets obscured by buckets."

[pacopete4]

Hockey is where I’m at and will always be so I’m biased on this topic but even taking out hockey from the equation I’m not sure how people rally around the nba so much. You have some of the most talented athletes on planet earth and the game feels like I tuned into the WWE or something.