Milwaukee Bucks 2018 - 2019

[DuWayne Steurer]

60 wins. Giannis gonna win mvp. Now they just need to go win a playoff series and then the nba title.

[FVBrewerFan]

Very cool how loud the FF was, even though it was pretty much a meaningless game. That place is going to be LOUD come playoff time.

[brwrsfan]

Does anyone else have a full season ticket strip?

 

If so...can you see your playoff tickets and/or invoice yet? I know for a fact that I confirmed I wanted playoff tickets....but I haven't been charged anything yet, nor can I see the seats in my ticket account (just the seats for tomorrow show up). Seems a tad strange and alarming given that the playoffs start this weekend and the Bucks will be at home....ugh.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I actually don't think Giannis is going to get the MVP. Harden is going to get it because PPG is king in the NBA. And he has been a superstar longer.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm pretty confident Giannis will win it. I think Harden's stats are starting to be old news, kind of like Westbrook's triple-doubles. I think more people are realizing that the statistical context is totally different these days, and gaudy stats are less impressive. Harden has 5 to's per game and he's still a liability on defense (his deflections and steals are a direct result of getting so many opportunities precisely because opponents like to exploit his perimeter defense). Curry and Durant are consistently much more efficient on offense, and even Kyrie and Lillard aren't too far behind Harden's efficiency. Reggie Miller was more efficient in his prime.

 

Harden is extreme volume with good efficiency. It's more a reflection of how the game is played and officiated these days than it is of his greatness. He's just the first person perfectly suited to capitalize in the extreme on the new paradigm, in a situation that's also a perfect storm for building a phony narrative. The Kurt Warner of the NBA, if you will. Giannis is timeless greatness right now, being a top-7 player on both ends of the court and carrying the team to the best record in the NBA and a historic scoring differential. He also finished much stronger. Harden would have won if the season ended at the ASB, but I think Giannis will win by a surprising margin.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Harden is extreme volume and efficiency. He's an absolute machine offensively, and Giannis is the all-around player. Harden won the anonymous player poll, which leads me to think the same is going to happen with MVP. A close vote, but tenure + scoring + Houston being trash without him will win out.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

Harden is extreme volume and efficiency. He's an absolute machine offensively, and Giannis is the all-around player. Harden won the anonymous player poll, which leads me to think the same is going to happen with MVP. A close vote, but tenure + scoring + Houston being trash without him will win out.

 

The actual voters who have shared their choice publicly so far have Giannis outpolling Harden 3 to 1.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

That would surprise me because I think either one is a valid choice. I am expecting at most a 60-40 split.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

That would surprise me because I think either one is a valid choice. I am expecting at most a 60-40 split.

 

Could wind up that way. But Giannis is a legit DPOTY candidate on top of being a dominant force offensively. That's a tough comp for Harden who is hardly known for his effort on defense.

[coolhandluke121]

Harden is extreme volume and efficiency. He's an absolute machine offensively, and Giannis is the all-around player. Harden won the anonymous player poll, which leads me to think the same is going to happen with MVP. A close vote, but tenure + scoring + Houston being trash without him will win out.

 

He's not really extremely efficienct compared to other great scorers though. Curry and Durant represent extreme efficiency and have shown the ability to get their true shooting close to 65% or higher by being able to integrate seamlessly into a team concept and taking less difficult shots. Their combination of volume and efficiency is more impressive than Harden's. Harden, on the other hand, is basically always around 60% because his production is dependent on excessive isoball. He can play with Paul and Gordon and he doesn't change into a great team player. Like I said, other iso scorers like Kyrie and Lillard have pulled 60% or close to it before. Great 3-point shooters like Klay has come very close without the benefit of being the isoball guy who gets to hog the ball and get to the line all the time. Ray Allen did it without hogging the ball. So did Reggie Miller. Redd came very close to 60% in 2003. Pierce did it a few times. Numerous 3-point specialists who weren't all-stars have done it with low usage.

 

And Giannis is at an astounding 64.4% while being arguably the most impactful defender in the league. Harden's case is being able to score like that despite taking a lot of difficult shots, but it doesn't make him any more valuable than scorers whose style of play doesn't require them to take and make such difficult shots to be an MVP candidate in the first place. So being able to turn difficult shots into good offense is just an excuse for taking more difficult shots and increasing your volume, whereas guys like Curry, Giannis, George, and Durant improve their efficiency and defense when playing on better teams, which is harder to do and more valuable in my opinion.

 

I just can't reward Harden for being a guy who can make a bunch of difficult shots that the best teams wouldn't want or need him to take in the first place. His MVP case actually depends on being on a team where he has a ready-made excuse for playing his style of play. If he became a more efficient player and better defender when guys are there to lighten his scoring burden, I would be more inclined to give him a nod, but I would honestly pick him after Durant, Curry, and George (let alone Giannis) if I were trying to build a contender this year.

[True Blue Brew Crew]

I just can't reward Harden for being a guy who can make a bunch of difficult shots that the best teams wouldn't want or need him to take in the first place.

 

I don't think I've seen it stated any better anywhere on the web with regard to this debate.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think that's a little simple and dismissive of a guy who is one of the greatest scorers the NBA has ever seen. I personally think Giannis is a better player, but I wouldn't feel it is some injustice if Harden wins. It's kinda similar to the criticism of Iverson in his prime, a lot of which I was saying back then, but in hindsight I respect his game more and view them both as guys who were so good at scoring they were able to make winners of otherwise meh teams. I don't think it's fair to say he can't win MVP because Golden State and Toronto and Milwaukee wouldn't need him to do what he does.

[coolhandluke121]

I think that's a little simple and dismissive of a guy who is one of the greatest scorers the NBA has ever seen. I personally think Giannis is a better player, but I wouldn't feel it is some injustice if Harden wins. It's kinda similar to the criticism of Iverson in his prime, a lot of which I was saying back then, but in hindsight I respect his game more and view them both as guys who were so good at scoring they were able to make winners of otherwise meh teams. I don't think it's fair to say he can't win MVP because Golden State and Toronto and Milwaukee wouldn't need him to do what he does.

 

I don't think that's dismissive. I know nobody else could be doing what Harden is doing in the situation. What I'm saying is that his MVP case depends totally on being in that situation in the first place. Like Iverson, he needs to be on an otherwise "meh" team with a dearth of scorers to get the ultimate green light and be a legitimate MVP candidate, and it's highly questionable whether his approach is as helpful in bringing a team to contention that would otherwise be as far away as the Bucks without Giannis.

 

I would also argue that it's dismissive of the importance of defense and team play to base an MVP choice on pure isolation scoring ability.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

This is the classic MVP debate though. Personally, I think holding that against a player is weak. I think going after Harden for playing half the sport is fair, and that Giannis alters an opponent's strategy completely in a way that Harden does not. To me, that's an MVP. But arguing he shouldn't win because the situation makes him put up monster numbers has always been a bit of a weak thesis IMO

[coolhandluke121]

Put him on GSW instead of Curry or Durant and they'd get worse. No place for that kind of ball-hogging on a fully functional offense. The value of that kind of ability to play hero-ball is totally dependent on needing hero-ball. A team that doesn't need that would make him an MVP afterthought. I think comparing him to Durant or Curry is informative. There you have 2 MVP's who found ways to adapt and still be among the 3 best offensive players in the game despite fewer fga's. They also have improved their defense a lot. I would easily take either one of them ahead of Harden when building a team from scratch, because I wouldn't want to be obligated to build a Harden-ball team to maximize his value.

 

I would also note that we saw the same thing in the all-star draft. Giannis and Lebron didn't care about Harden. Why would they, or any good team, want someone on the team whose greatness is somewhat dependent on the narrative that he has to play this way because the rest of his team isn't good? Now I know the all-star draft was mostly entertainment, but they were still paying respect to the guys they thought deserved it the most. This articles touches a little on what some other players think of Harden:

 

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26031800/giannis-harden-mvp-question-dividing-nba

[OldSchoolSnapper]

OK, but they do need it, and he's really good at it. I'm sure you could have put Iverson on teams where he would have made them worse, but the reality is maybe 1, 2 or 3 guys in the NBA could have taken that Sixers roster to the NBA Finals. Using hypothetical scenarios for why a guy shouldn't win MVP doesn't hold a lot of water imo.

[coolhandluke121]

OK, but they do need it, and he's really good at it. I'm sure you could have put Iverson on teams where he would have made them worse, but the reality is maybe 1, 2 or 3 guys in the NBA could have taken that Sixers roster to the NBA Finals. Using hypothetical scenarios for why a guy shouldn't win MVP doesn't hold a lot of water imo.

 

The Iverson MVP was all narrative too. How does taking them to the finals make him more valuable than Shaq, Kobe, KG, or Duncan? He was just lucky to be in the east. It was a question of favoring flash and scoring over other aspects of the game.

[coolhandluke121]

Harden is in the perfect situation. Giannis is the perfect situation.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Shaq or Duncan could not carry a team to the finals the way AI did, Eastern conference or not. Both had a lot of help moving an offense along. They're HOF players, but they don't really create the same kind of scoring opportunities. Kobe probably, but this is going a little bit off the rails. AI and Harden have high volume because they need to to win in their environments. I doubt that Philly team could win 50 games without Iverson taking 40 shots. The talent just wasn't there.

 

I don't know why you're trying to convince me Giannis is the MVP though. I've said about 10 times now that I think he is. I think you can make that case without the same old arguments about volume and "what ifs". He is a more well rounded player that alters the game completely on both ends. The reality is Harden is amazing on that team and if he does win MVP he's earned it for being a remarkable scorer. The narrative here is going to be small market railroading etc., and I just think it's weak.

[coolhandluke121]

I'm not trying to convince you that Giannis is MVP. I'm trying to convince you that it's not dismissive or disrespectful to Harden to say Giannis should clearly be the MVP. There have hardly been less question marks about a guy's worthiness to be MVP in the history of the game. Only his reduced minutes and games make a case, but I would argue it's actually an argument in your favor when you can carry your team to the best record in the NBA and a historic scoring differential while still getting plenty of rest to stay fresh for the playoffs.

 

Harden has a few legitimate questions. Like Westbrook's first triple-double season, I believe history will vindicate the criticism and continue to solidify Giannis's status while putting Harden's in context. Doesn't take away from his all-NBA status. Does make him a clear notch below Giannis.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

K, then we definitely disagree there. The consensus I've read almost universally is that this is the rare year where they are truly 2 deserving guys. I think your sentence about "hardly been less question marks" is way off the mark. I for one won't be the least bit surprised if Harden actually wins nor will I view it as a great injustice. If I had a vote it would be for Giannis, but Harden has been such a prolific scorer I respect any voter that picks him.

[coolhandluke121]

The consensus I've read almost universally is that this is the rare year where they are truly 2 deserving guys.

 

The media always try to do that. Less debate = less clicks. They're trying to keep it a race, but I don't think there is one.

[homer]

The players picked Harden.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Ugh, do we have to do the media conspiracy thing with everything?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The players picked Harden.

 

They did, 44-39%, but overwhelmingly picked Giannis for "team to build a franchise around," no doubt partially due to age as I don't think Harden was even 2nd place there, but I think it circles back to what MVP is, which has always been fairly ambiguous. I won't be surprised if Harden wins but I will be fairly surprised if Giannis wins 75/25.