Milwaukee Bucks 2018 - 2019

[FVBrewerFan]

What the hell is going on out there?

 

Not sure, but I think Middleton forgot how to play basketball.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Middleton was playing some really crappy basketball in the 4th quarter of the Utah game. Say what you want about the guards being unavailable or everyone being gassed, but they were up 17 with 7 to go, and Middleton was just making some really bad basketball decisions, and he played like absolute crap again tonight.

 

It's not just about missing shots, it's about poor shot selection, rushing shots, not making any effort at ball movement and finding an open shooter or a cutter... he's just going up the floor and launching.

[homer]

I dont think you can blame one guy when you lose to the Suns.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I dont think you can blame one guy when you lose to the Suns.

 

 

certainly not.. but Middleton's play of late has been pretty terrible. Midds was a -18 tonight. Generally I hate +/- because that just doesn't tell a whole story. I've seen games where the Bucks win by 15, and Giannis has a negative, and Tony Snell played 15 minutes and has a +23, and has 0's across his box score.

 

Middleton is just taking poor, contested shots lately, rushing shots, and his defense has been atrocious. He's standing around the perimeter and just letting guys run past him. He's gotta get more involved on the other end of the court.

 

Losing to the Suns is a team effort, but if we're giving out individual grades, I'm looking at Middleton first and giving him a solid F.

[OnTheBlack]

I dont think you can blame one guy when you lose to the Suns.

 

 

Well, if Middleton just has a bad night, not a absolutely horrible night, they win easily. You can always look at other plays, but I WOULD put the losses the last two games on Middleton.

 

You were up 17 and then up 10 halfway through the 4th and Middleton was just terrible. When your #2 offensive player makes the plays he made and you give up those types of leads...it's on him.

 

That said, everyone struggles and I'm still confident he'll come out of it like every good shooter who struggles at times. I don't remember who it was, but someone just had an 0-13 game from 3 breaking the record for most 3's attempted without a make by guys like Steph and a few other greats(it was probably Harden).

 

It does get more frustrating when he's not hitting as opposed to some of the other guys like the other perimeter guys who catch and shoot because he does play more ISO than anyone other than Giannis and maybe Bled, but he's also usually a big benefit.

[adambr2]

I dont think you can blame one guy when you lose to the Suns.

 

You can if said guy shoots 7%. 7.

[coolhandluke121]

It's almost like Middleton really is out of shape or something.

 

Honestly will never understand how anyone can not see his slouching and the extra layer of fat on his thin frame. He's been doing this every year since he got his $70m deal, and it takes him longer and longer to play his way into shape each year. This is looking like the year where he never gets it together.

 

I think his nickname should be Droop Doggie Dogg.

[DuWayne Steurer]

It's almost like Middleton really is out of shape or something.

 

Honestly will never understand how anyone can not see his slouching and the extra layer of fat on his thin frame. He's been doing this every year since he got his $70m deal, and it takes him longer and longer to play his way into shape each year. This is looking like the year where he never gets it together.

 

I think his nickname should be Droop Doggie Dogg.

 

 

Could just be that he had a couple of really bad games....

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

It's almost like Middleton really is out of shape or something.

 

Honestly will never understand how anyone can not see his slouching and the extra layer of fat on his thin frame. He's been doing this every year since he got his $70m deal, and it takes him longer and longer to play his way into shape each year. This is looking like the year where he never gets it together.

 

I think his nickname should be Droop Doggie Dogg.

 

Wow, can you imagine what would happen if he did "get it together"? He's make the double-secret All-Star team, instead of just the regular All-Star team.

[FVBrewerFan]

I think there's a few things going on:

 

1) Doldrums of late season and long western road trip. It is difficult to maintain a high level of defensive intensity for an entire game 82 games a year. Happens to the Warriors, happens to every team.

 

2) Working with new rotations. Hill has been out, then missing a bunch of guys vs Utah. Mostly though, adjustment to Mirotic, and Mirotic adjusting to the Bucks.

 

3) Middleton. Could it be something off-court? Maybe sulking that Bled got a deal and he didn't? NOT saying that's the case, just wondering. Either way, seems he's forcing things to get his x number of shots a game he wants. (Which are harder to come by with yet another option in Mirotic.)

 

4) Giannis. Huge game vs Utah, but they left the lane open for him. Other than that, he's really struggled to get his buckets, and regressed again at the line. For a legit MVP candidate he can get way too mechanical and think too much on offense. He gets a certain move in his head (spin in the lane for a couple weeks, now charge hard to the rim every time.) Fine line between being aggressive and forcing things. Hey, it's not like he's been bad, just too many turnovers lately and scoring hasn't come easy.

 

5) Target on their back. Best record, Giannis...teams are getting up for them now. We saw the Lakers really bring it (which is rare) so did Phoenix.

 

Those aren't in any particular order. And it's not panic time. Hopefully they get back home and have a couple days to watch film, work on some things, and they smoke the Pacers Thursday and get back on track. If we see these things, obviously the coaching staff does as well, and then some.

[coolhandluke121]

It's almost like Middleton really is out of shape or something.

 

Honestly will never understand how anyone can not see his slouching and the extra layer of fat on his thin frame. He's been doing this every year since he got his $70m deal, and it takes him longer and longer to play his way into shape each year. This is looking like the year where he never gets it together.

 

I think his nickname should be Droop Doggie Dogg.

 

Wow, can you imagine what would happen if he did "get it together"? He's make the double-secret All-Star team, instead of just the regular All-Star team.

 

His effort is worse than it's ever been, he's not fitting in to the team concept on offense, and there is such a thing as empty stats, but I'm not going to waste too much time arguing with someone who thinks the Bucks have had "a lot of talent" at point guard between Cassell and Bledsoe. His all-star berth was a nod to the Bucks' record and the fact that he was close to being an all-star for years. Awards like that are often based on many years of performance, but Bledsoe has been far better this year.

 

Besides, the problem is not that he's bad per se. It's that he should and could be better than guys like Klay Thompson, Rip Hamilton, and Buddy Hield, but he can't be bothered to stay in shape and play hard on a consistent basis. But why address the substance of my post when you can just pretend I said he's a bad player?

[homer]

I dont think you can blame one guy when you lose to the Suns.

 

 

Well, if Middleton just has a bad night, not a absolutely horrible night, they win easily. You can always look at other plays, but I WOULD put the losses the last two games on Middleton.

 

Sorry but I can't agree with that. Mirotic was horrible last night too. And Giannis had 6 turnovers and he fouled out. The Bucks should easily be able to overcome a horrible shooting night by one guy but no one else picked up the slack. At the end of the day, they gave up 40+ points to Utah in the 4th and 38 points to the friggin Suns in the 4th. That doesn't have much to do with bad shooting on the other end.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

It's almost like Middleton really is out of shape or something.

 

Honestly will never understand how anyone can not see his slouching and the extra layer of fat on his thin frame. He's been doing this every year since he got his $70m deal, and it takes him longer and longer to play his way into shape each year. This is looking like the year where he never gets it together.

 

I think his nickname should be Droop Doggie Dogg.

 

Wow, can you imagine what would happen if he did "get it together"? He's make the double-secret All-Star team, instead of just the regular All-Star team.

 

His effort is worse than it's ever been, he's not fitting in to the team concept on offense, and there is such a thing as empty stats, but I'm not going to waste too much time arguing with someone who thinks the Bucks have had "a lot of talent" at point guard between Cassell and Bledsoe. His all-star berth was a nod to the Bucks' record and the fact that he was close to being an all-star for years. Awards like that are often based on many years of performance, but Bledsoe has been far better this year.

 

Besides, the problem is not that he's bad per se. It's that he should and could be better than guys like Klay Thompson, Rip Hamilton, and Buddy Hield, but he can't be bothered to stay in shape and play hard on a consistent basis. But why address the substance of my post when you can just pretend I said he's a bad player?

 

I probably deserved that condescension.

 

Regarding Middleton, I guess it depends on where you think his ceiling is. I think he's a solid 2nd option on a good playoff team, which is pretty much where he's at right now. I do wish he gave more effort on defense and had better shot selection at times. You obviously believe his ceiling is much higher.

[tmwiese55]

Yea they basically just stood around on offense the last 5 minutes putting up end of clock deep shots until they got down and then went back to some Giannis/Bled PnR attacks but it was too late and PHX didn't miss another shot basically. Just looked tired all the way around to me. Crap happens in a long NBA season and long road trip. Terrible loss but it happens in the NBA. The way this season has gone, it'll be a motivator and they'll blow out Indy on Thursday. Although Indy does match up well with MKE. Remember Giannis is nursing a knee injury too, probably holding him back a bit.

[homer]

The out of shape Middleton thing is a myth. I haven't seen any quote or article about it merely conjecture by people eyeballing his muscle tone. His play on the court looks lackadaisical at times and people confuse that with him being winded. Some guy on Real GM posted Middleton's true shooting % for his career and his best numbers come in Dec. 2nd best is Nov. He doesn't play his way into shape. He has good shooting months and bad shooting months. Right now he's about average for him on 3 pt %. The issue is two point FG % - he's way down. Could be a product of the new offense I don't know.

[coolhandluke121]

 

I probably deserved that condescension.

 

Regarding Middleton, I guess it depends on where you think his ceiling is. I think he's a solid 2nd option on a good playoff team, which is pretty much where he's at right now. I do wish he gave more effort on defense and had better shot selection at times. You obviously believe his ceiling is much higher.

 

I don't know how much you watched him when he was first breaking out, but he was a great intangibles guy. His perimeter defense was some of the best in the league, and he could guard all wings and many pf's. His switching and rotation was a huge weapon for the team when they surprised everyone and made the playoffs in Kidd's first year as coach. He got his offense in the flow and never dominated the ball. 34% of his fga's were 3's and he shot a career high 41% on them.

 

Then he got his contract and promptly showed up to camp out of shape despite being only 23. He spent a few months playing lazy isoball and wrecking the team's flow before Kidd finally benched him for lack of effort a few months into the season, which has become an annual thing at this point. We suffered through a few years of growing pains while he concentrated on adding a 90's style isoball, 2-pointer heavy approach to offense while neglecting all the defensive effort that made him a very good player in the first place. He did improve his play-making a little, but still doesn't have the energy and spring in his step to follow through on his attempts to create shots. I believe if he was in shape, he could be like Paul Pierce - not quite as good on offense, but better on defense. But at his current level of effort, he's not helping much, and they'd be better off with a guy like Hield who knows his role and doesn't try to be Kobe.

[coolhandluke121]

The out of shape Middleton thing is a myth. I haven't seen any quote or article about it merely conjecture by people eyeballing his muscle tone. His play on the court looks lackadaisical at times and people confuse that with him being winded. Some guy on Real GM posted Middleton's true shooting % for his career and his best numbers come in Dec. 2nd best is Nov. He doesn't play his way into shape. He has good shooting months and bad shooting months. Right now he's about average for him on 3 pt %. The issue is two point FG % - he's way down. Could be a product of the new offense I don't know.

 

Defense is a much better indicator of conditioning and effort than true shooting %, and that's not even debatable. I guarantee you his body fat % has gone up too, and no, that's not the same as "filling out". It's not muscle. Not everyone can see it, and the difference between 10% and 15% is hardly noticeable on a guy with his frame wearing baggy clothes, but it's there, plain as day.

 

ETA: I'll never understand how you can keep calling it a myth and confirmation bias. I can see literally see it right before my eyes. What's so hard to understand about that? It would be like if I saw someone steal a candy bar and you said it's just confirmation bias; I believe he stole it, and that's why I say I saw it.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Saying that someone stole a candybar in broad daylight is not the same as saying "that guy has an extra 2 mm of fat and I don't understand why no one else can see it". When absolutely no one else is agreeing with this point, obviously no one else is seeing it.

[homer]

The out of shape Middleton thing is a myth. I haven't seen any quote or article about it merely conjecture by people eyeballing his muscle tone. His play on the court looks lackadaisical at times and people confuse that with him being winded. Some guy on Real GM posted Middleton's true shooting % for his career and his best numbers come in Dec. 2nd best is Nov. He doesn't play his way into shape. He has good shooting months and bad shooting months. Right now he's about average for him on 3 pt %. The issue is two point FG % - he's way down. Could be a product of the new offense I don't know.

 

Defense is a much better indicator of conditioning and effort than true shooting %, and that's not even debatable. I guarantee you his body fat % has gone up too, and no, that's not the same as "filling out". It's not muscle. Not everyone can see it, and the difference between 10% and 15% is hardly noticeable on a guy with his frame wearing baggy clothes, but it's there, plain as day.

 

ETA: I'll never understand how you can keep calling it a myth and confirmation bias. I can see literally see it right before my eyes. What's so hard to understand about that? It would be like if I saw someone steal a candy bar and you said it's just confirmation bias; I believe he stole it, and that's why I say I saw it.

 

 

This guy did ok.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I dont think you can blame one guy when you lose to the Suns.

 

 

Well, if Middleton just has a bad night, not a absolutely horrible night, they win easily. You can always look at other plays, but I WOULD put the losses the last two games on Middleton.

 

Sorry but I can't agree with that. Mirotic was horrible last night too. And Giannis had 6 turnovers and he fouled out. The Bucks should easily be able to overcome a horrible shooting night by one guy but no one else picked up the slack. At the end of the day, they gave up 40+ points to Utah in the 4th and 38 points to the friggin Suns in the 4th. That doesn't have much to do with bad shooting on the other end.

 

 

Earlier in the season Lopez went 0-12 from 3, and I said "stop shooting!".

 

Apparently, even when guys are having off nights, Bud wants them to keep putting it up. My complaint then wouldn't be so much that someone has an off night (both Mirotic and Middleton shot horribly last night) it's that Middleton's shot selection and defense (just standing out on the perimeter) contributed a lot more to the loss than just "bad shooting". If Bud wants them to just shoot through bad nights, ok.. I get that. I might not completely agree with it, but I see his point. Eventually those shots are gonna fall. but Mids is just playing bad basketball right now. The rest of the team didn't play GREAT, but most of it was just a bad shooting night, and probably the team being tired playing 3 games in 4 nights on a west coast swing. It is what it is, but when Mids is the defacto "2nd best player" on your team, I just feel like we're expecting more out of him, and rightly so. If he wants to be a max contract guy, he should play like it, and right now (and a lot of this season) he really hasn't been a guy I would see having that value.

[FVBrewerFan]

Defense is a much better indicator of conditioning and effort than true shooting %, and that's not even debatable.

 

Actually it is debatable. If a player is out of shape, legs are the first thing to go and that obviously hurts your shooting. Yes, it can impact your defense as well- no question. But defense is also something you have to WANT to do. And you can tell the difference between effort and conditioning?

 

CHL, I don't think anyone here is doubting what you're saying COULD be true. But there's no evidence it IS true. Or, for that matter, having 5%...10% whatever more body fat even has any sort of negative impact on his game. I think what we have here is a good player, that at times can be a great player. As recently as the Celtics playoff series last year (when he was fat?)

[coolhandluke121]

 

 

This guy did ok.

 

He had issues with defense and conditioning too. He also was talented enough on offense to at least be great on that side of the ball without great conditioning, which Khris is not. Most importantly, he could have been better with better conditioning and defensive effort. Due to his superior talent (not to mention the Ubuntu Celtics literally being one of the greatest teams of all time), I guess he didn't really need to be to be arguably the #2 guy on a contender. Khris categorically does.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Actually it is debatable. If a player is out of shape, legs are the first thing to go and that obviously hurts your shooting. Yes, it can impact your defense as well- no question. But defense is also something you have to WANT to do. And you can tell the difference between effort and conditioning?

 

CHL, I don't think anyone here is doubting what you're saying COULD be true. But there's no evidence it IS true. Or, for that matter, having 5%...10% whatever more body fat even has any sort of negative impact on his game. I think what we have here is a good player, that at times can be a great player. As recently as the Celtics playoff series last year (when he was fat?)

 

Have you ever tried to play basketball at 5% body fat, and also at 15%? I have, and it makes a colossal difference. Literally the difference between being the best player on the court and the worst. And even now at over 15%, people say they can hardly see the difference.

 

Having hot shooting early in the season doesn't mean you're not out of shape. After Khris returned from his hamstring issue, he had his best shooting streak ever. It took a few weeks for his lack of conditioning and muscle tone (excusable under those circumstances) to wear him down and turn him into a shell of himself, and that's when his numbers took a nosedive. More importantly, if he was able to shoot the ball well despite being out of shape, it's because he was conserving energy on defense so he could still get his numbers. He's gone from one of the best defensive wings in the league to one of the most inconsistent since getting his first big contract.

[Mr Southpaw]

 

I probably deserved that condescension.

 

Regarding Middleton, I guess it depends on where you think his ceiling is. I think he's a solid 2nd option on a good playoff team, which is pretty much where he's at right now. I do wish he gave more effort on defense and had better shot selection at times. You obviously believe his ceiling is much higher.

 

I don't know how much you watched him when he was first breaking out, but he was a great intangibles guy. His perimeter defense was some of the best in the league, and he could guard all wings and many pf's. His switching and rotation was a huge weapon for the team when they surprised everyone and made the playoffs in Kidd's first year as coach. He got his offense in the flow and never dominated the ball. 34% of his fga's were 3's and he shot a career high 41% on them.

 

Then he got his contract and promptly showed up to camp out of shape despite being only 23. He spent a few months playing lazy isoball and wrecking the team's flow before Kidd finally benched him for lack of effort a few months into the season, which has become an annual thing at this point. We suffered through a few years of growing pains while he concentrated on adding a 90's style isoball, 2-pointer heavy approach to offense while neglecting all the defensive effort that made him a very good player in the first place. He did improve his play-making a little, but still doesn't have the energy and spring in his step to follow through on his attempts to create shots. I believe if he was in shape, he could be like Paul Pierce - not quite as good on offense, but better on defense. But at his current level of effort, he's not helping much, and they'd be better off with a guy like Hield who knows his role and doesn't try to be Kobe.

This sounds like you do not think we should resign him...or at least at the max amounts people have been saying. I agree with not signing him to a max contract. I always like to attach numbers in situations like this, which I have in previous posts. My max would be 4 years at $110 million, maybe less if the rest of the year is pedestrian.

[RollieTime]

Saying that someone stole a candybar in broad daylight is not the same as saying "that guy has an extra 2 mm of fat and I don't understand why no one else can see it". When absolutely no one else is agreeing with this point, obviously no one else is seeing it.

 

+1

 

Not a single other person has agreed with his point about Middleton being overweight. His struggles the last couple games have nothing to do with his weight.

 

It's almost like Middleton really is out of shape or something.

 

Honestly will never understand how anyone can not see his slouching and the extra layer of fat on his thin frame. He's been doing this every year since he got his $70m deal, and it takes him longer and longer to play his way into shape each year. This is looking like the year where he never gets it together.

 

I think his nickname should be Droop Doggie Dogg.

 

I truly can’t see how you think he is out of shape when he’s been playing basketball for multiple hours everyday for at least 5 months straight to this point. I can’t believe that you think people that carry a little extra weight are just fat and out of shape. A guy that is 6’10 and weighs 235 and a guy that’s 6’10 and weighs 250 can be equally as effective basketball players and have the same stamina.