Milwaukee Bucks 2018 - 2019

[wallus]

Mirotic is a perfect fit for this offense. He just has to be serviceable on defense to be well worth it.

 

 

I'm just trying to find a single reason why the Pelicans would POSSIBLY be on board with this?

 

What the heck do they gain by making this deal? They save a little money this year, right? Is that all? I'd have to think they could have gotten more.

 

Those Washington second round picks might have value.

[And That]

Wait, the Bucks turned Jason Smith and Thon Maker into Nikola Mirotic? That may just about cement Horst for GM of the year, assuming the Bucks get deep into the playoffs.

[wallus]

Also, the Johnson and Smith are expiring so that might have been appealing.

[brwrsfan]

Smith and Thon hadn't seen the floor in weeks. The Bucks/Nuggets picks currently are at the end of the second round, so more or less very little value. The Wizards, hard to say. If they don't trade Beal, I think those are still in the middle of the second round. If they move him, those become better. But still, this is an absolute steal for the Bucks. I also believe they get Bird Rights on him now too, which could help if they want to sign him back.

 

It was mentioned above, but let's not overlook the open roster spot for a buyout. That could be very useful in a week or two. Ellington, Matthews, maybe Robin Lopez, etc. There will be options and the Bucks will have a spot for one. AND they'll have just enough room to sign a buyout and stay under the tax threshold for this year.

 

Horst has done a stunningly good job with trades and the roster the past few months.

[coolhandluke121]

Those Wizards' picks are nice. I wouldn't sleep on what the Pelicans got out of this. Mirotic is just a rental.

 

Will be very interesting to see who the Bucks try to retain this summer. Getting ahead of myself obviously, but this could be a great team for a while. Now trading Ersan's contract would help a lot.

[HiAndTight]

Mirotic is a perfect fit for this offense. He just has to be serviceable on defense to be well worth it.

 

 

I'm just trying to find a single reason why the Pelicans would POSSIBLY be on board with this?

 

What the heck do they gain by making this deal? They save a little money this year, right? Is that all? I'd have to think they could have gotten more.

 

 

 

They got 4 future 2nd round picks, including 2 of Washington's that could be early. With Mirotic a FA after the season, and Pelicans rebuilding... that seems to be an ok get for someone they'd probably let walk anyway

 

 

I hadn't even looked elsewhere for details of this trade than on this forum. I was unaware that picks were involved. I don't love giving up MORE picks as I don't want to end up like the Cavs with a superstar and so little in the way of current or future assets, but in this case, a couple 2nds seem fitting.

 

 

He's got about 1/3rd of a season and the post-season to earn a contract for next year. Either way, really nice to see the Bucks get a really solid player and a great bench player for next to nothing.

[tmwiese55]

Yea Pels get 4 2nds, two of which should be top 10ish. Easy as to why. I wonder if they chose these 4 picks instead of one 1st from someone else?

 

Mirotic trade is absolutely perfect move for the Bucks. Best feasible move they could have made today. He's a drastic improvement to Ersan and wilson on O. Worse on D but he's big enough to hold his own and rebound at least. They basically now how have a wide variety of bigs that can fit almost any matchups needed. Someone just brought up Horford, well you still have Giannis/Lopez too. You have tons of guys to fit different matchups. They could be lacking one more thick guy to bang with Embiid if Lopez were to get hurt, but in today's NBA I don't think you want to waste two roster spots on those guys. Plus Ersan will stick his nose into anything, he doesn't care.

 

For this ridiculous back and forth on Brog vs LAL guys. Hi and T you're simply missing some basic logic and forgetting this is an opinion based thing. In spite of saying Brogdon isn't as good as we think and/or expendable doesn't mean that he thinks he's worse than the LAL guys. It's your opinion those guys are better than CHL thinks they are, that's it, move on. Yet you're trying to act like you're catching him in some contradictory statement when it's just not the case. For example, I think Stanley Johnson sucks but that doesn't automatically mean that I think he's worse than Thon. They're unrelated. I think player X sucks, but I can also think player Y sucks even more.

 

Genius move by horst not finalizing the Johnson trade yesterday so he could be moved in a bigger trade. Like I mentioned yesterday, he's more tradable due to being expiring.

[HiAndTight]

By the way, has anyone heard, or does anyone know when we'll find out if we get Mirza's money taken off our cap? It should be foregone conclusion, right? That is if it hasn't already happened. Giving us ~24 million in cap room this off-season.

[tmwiese55]

Mirza's cap stuff should have went off in early December, a year from whenever he played his last game basically. That should all be done already and factored into all the cap stuff you read online now.

[brwrsfan]

By the way, has anyone heard, or does anyone know when we'll find out if we get Mirza's money taken off our cap? It should be foregone conclusion, right? That is if it hasn't already happened. Giving us ~24 million in cap room this off-season.

 

Yes, this happened a couple of months ago.

 

http://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-news-relieves-bucks-of-mirza-teletovic-contract-after-career-ending-injury/1d8ft7y2lz11b13nrkpmdxb0nw

[FVBrewerFan]

We're lamenting the heavy use of 3 pointers in the NBA, trade for a guy called Three-kola and we're all thrilled!

 

I think he's a much better fit right now than trading for another guard. He's not a lock down defender or anything, but one more guy with size and they needed that to match up against certain teams.

[Jenkins5]

Love trade! Hated Mirza on the Bulls & watching him roast us game after game. He always was a pain to play against.

 

Edit: Nikola not Mirza, my bad

[coolhandluke121]

We're lamenting the heavy use of 3 pointers in the NBA, trade for a guy called Three-kola and we're all thrilled!

 

 

There's no contradiction there. These are the rules now. We still want a title this year, even if we'd like to change some of the rules. Nobody's going to use a sub-optimal strategy to protest a rule out of spite. That was Jason Kidd's thing.

[homer]

Nate Silver said the Bucks odds of winning it all doubled after getting Mirotic.

[wallus]

Love trade! Hated Mirza on the Bulls & watching him roast us game after game. He always was a pain to play against

 

Wrong foreign white guy...

[xisxisxis]

I wonder how much Budz makes Horst better while Kidd made him worse? Did Horst finally get it this last year or does he finally have a coach who knows what talent he needs and fits his system? Either way, if the Bucks make a deep run in the playoffs, I can't see Horst not being GM of the year.

[coolhandluke121]

I wonder how much Budz makes Horst better while Kidd made him worse? Did Horst finally get it this last year or does he finally have a coach who knows what talent he needs and fits his system?

 

There was a lot of smoke about Kidd losing personnel influence after some terrible decisions, including Mirza, Vazquez, and Dellavedova. They also kept signing/drafting guys with the same agent as Kidd regardless of talent or fit. It was clearly an agenda and it killed the Bucks for years.

 

Then you have the period where I'm not sure there was any direction at all. This includes hiring Horst and not knowing who was in charge. Thorn was in the mix, Kidd was trying to get his way, Horst was suspected of being nothing but a yes-man, and the owners ultimately had the final say in decisions like foolishly keeping Parker's sorry behind until it was too late to get anything of value for him.

 

It's uncanny how instantaneously decisions got better as soon as they got Bud. They were doing nothing to find the right fits (and move on quickly from bad fits) before Bud. He has a philosophy and vision and they're getting more and more guys that fit that vision. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that Bud has his hands on every single decision, like Belichick in New England.

[FVBrewerFan]

I have no proof, but I always had the feeling they had too many cooks in the kitchen. Three majority owners, a GM with one foot out the door, Kidd, then Horst and other newer front office people. That's always a recipe for disaster. The new owners were excited to win instead of continuing to build around Giannis. So they made a lot of moves for mediocre or worse scrappy vets. Best example I can think of is when he played that one defensive only guard a ton. Can't recall his name, want to say Lillard but I know that's not it.

 

Now it seems (I hope) Horst has a lot more control over basketball decisions. No doubt others chime in, but I want to believe it's his show now. I don't know that Bud gets involved with personnel decisions or not, not sure it's needed. Horst understands what Bud wants/needs, but I'm sure he at least talks to him before a trade for example.

[coolhandluke121]

It would be just about impossible to separate Bud's influence from Horst's without being an insider. I think we have some clues though. Kidd lost a lot of personnel influence and Horst was gm for a full year before Bud, but the decision-making didn't improve much at all. Now it's clear that there's extremely high basketball intelligence somewhere in the organization making personnel decisions, and I think the only guy who's proven he has that is Bud.

 

When Bud was hired, he described the type of basketball player he needed to build a successful team. Many people immediately noticed that he was describing the exact opposite of Jabari, and wouldn't you know it, the Bucks let Jabari walk for nothing a few weeks later. Didn't even try to arrange a sign-and-trade. This was after they reportedly passed on a chance to trade for Deandre Jordan at last year's deadline because the Clippers wanted Jabari in the deal. So the Bucks consistently failed to recognize Jabari for what he really was for 4 straight years, but then all of sudden saw through him as soon as they got Bud. I don't think that's a coincidence, and it's not a coincidence that they now have a great team with a roster that actually hasn't changed much because they recognize the importance of the right role players, glue guys, system guys, and bbiq.

[homer]

I think Bud has a ton to do with it but Horst also magically eliminated the Delly and Henson contracts and acquired Hill to boot. Acquiring Lopez was a stroke of genius too. But other than him the team was more or less the same personnel as last year. Bud is just a really good coach.

[HiAndTight]

It would be just about impossible to separate Bud's influence from Horst's without being an insider. I think we have some clues though. Kidd lost a lot of personnel influence and Horst was gm for a full year before Bud, but the decision-making didn't improve much at all. Now it's clear that there's extremely high basketball intelligence somewhere in the organization making personnel decisions, and I think the only guy who's proven he has that is Bud.

 

When Bud was hired, he described the type of basketball player he needed to build a successful team. Many people immediately noticed that he was describing the exact opposite of Jabari, and wouldn't you know it, the Bucks let Jabari walk for nothing a few weeks later. Didn't even try to arrange a sign-and-trade. This was after they reportedly passed on a chance to trade for Deandre Jordan at last year's deadline because the Clippers wanted Jabari in the deal. So the Bucks consistently failed to recognize Jabari for what he really was for 4 straight years, but then all of sudden saw through him as soon as they got Bud. I don't think that's a coincidence, and it's not a coincidence that they now have a great team with a roster that actually hasn't changed much because they recognize the importance of the right role players, glue guys, system guys, and bbiq.

 

By the time the deadline rolled around last year they should have known what they had in Jabari, even in a best case scenario...and Jordan's been a guy I've thought would be a perfect fit. But when you say they're failed to recognize what they had in Jabari for 4 straight years, were you an anti Jabari guy coming out? I personally wanted Wiggins at the time and then when Embid got hurt, wanted nothing to do with him(and I doubt we'd have let him sit for nearly two full years to recover, so he very well may have been out of the league by now as well).

 

But don't you think it's a touch unfair to blame them for not knowing what they had in Jabari earlier? He looked like an explosive player with a good shot. A scorer and not really even a fit in what Kidd was trying to do defensively, but a potential elite scorer regardless.

 

There's an enormous list of mind blowingly stupid moves the Bucks have or haven't made and they USUALLY made the wrong move(again, the worst that comes to mind is moving a 19 year old lottery pick for a guy who said he didn't want to come here and who was only a rental on a team that at best was gonnd be a "tough out" for an 8 seed).

 

I guess the whole Parker saga seems a bit more nuanced than many of their decisions...even going back to Kohls desire to perpetually be a 32-40 win team.

[coolhandluke121]

 

By the time the deadline rolled around last year they should have known what they had in Jabari, even in a best case scenario...and Jordan's been a guy I've thought would be a perfect fit. But when you say they're failed to recognize what they had in Jabari for 4 straight years, were you an anti Jabari guy coming out? I personally wanted Wiggins at the time and then when Embid got hurt, wanted nothing to do with him(and I doubt we'd have let him sit for nearly two full years to recover, so he very well may have been out of the league by now as well).

 

But don't you think it's a touch unfair to blame them for not knowing what they had in Jabari earlier? He looked like an explosive player with a good shot. A scorer and not really even a fit in what Kidd was trying to do defensively, but a potential elite scorer regardless.

 

 

Never wanted Jabari, period. It's funny you should ask because there was this back-and-forth on RealGM for years about Jabari and lots of people got really mad at me for it. But I had him pegged from day one as a pure empty stats scorer who isn't even better than a typical glue guy, let alone a potential future star. I started out comparing him to Jamison, Big Dog, Mashburn, etc, but eventually settled on sf version of David Lee as the best possible comparison. There was a 400-page thread arguing about trading him, and the mod there titled it "sponsored by CHL". I wanted him traded to Utah for Favors/#5 before the draft, as Utah had offered that same package to Cleveland for the right to draft Jabari (the Cavs traded the pick for Love instead and Minnesota drafted Wiggins).

 

The red flags were there all along, some going all the way back to high school. Didn't consistently take good care of his body and conditioning, was benched in the NCAA tournament, was a superfluous scorer who played the same position as Giannis or Khris, refused to box out or put a body on anyone, couldn't/wouldn't set good screens, was assisted on a ridiculously high percentage of his makes but couldn't really create his own offense in the flow, didn't really shoot well despite the myth of him being a great scorer, was one of the worst defenders I've ever seen, and the team was consistently better with him on the bench or injured than with him playing. The only time he ever was a positive influence on the team's chances of winning was when he hit 50% of his 3's for a 6-week stretch before tearing his ACL a second time, but we all know that kind of shooting was not sustainable. It reminds me of when Charlie Villanueva had a similar stretch in his last year with the Bucks, and Jabari is clearly going to have a similar career to CV. He was pretty much a guy who made a name for himself being bigger, stronger, and more athletic than college guys because he developed physically so much earlier than most athletes, but he couldn't fall back on being a man-child in the NBA and he pretty clearly didn't have the work ethic, mental toughness, or awareness to remain a good player when it got tougher.

 

ETA: Basically I'm just saying I didn't see it as nuanced, even though most people did. So I'm entitled to hold it against them even if others would be guilty of benefiting from hindsight by doing so. There was never the slightest doubt in my mind that he was not a good player.

[tmwiese55]

I didn't blame them for drafting him. With the Embiid injury you kind of had to. For me, after the first torn ACL I was in the "cash out on him while you can" camp of trading him for what you could get. Torn ACLs are a big deal and most Bucks fans just put blinders on to it. We already had Giannis and KM at his positions. In his time on the court he wasn't that good and other than the short stretch before the 2nd tear he didn't shoot 3s. For how awful he was on D and rebounding (I only saw him box out one time in all my time watching him) you needed him to be a serious power on offense.

 

Besides the nitpicking his game, to me it was all about eliminating that variable of a 2nd torn ACL and his impending contract situation that would cap us out and it would ruin us if we'd paid it and then he tore his ACL again. They got darn lucky he tore it when he did instead of say now, as they'd have him on a 25 mil contract right now without it. We had Giannis for this 5 year window and we couldn't mess it up and couldn't gamble on a guy like him. We needed a PG and I was all about pushing him when he still had the shine of upside/potential for a PG. I've always had a man crush on Lillard myself.

[HiAndTight]

I think Bud has a ton to do with it but Horst also magically eliminated the Delly and Henson contracts and acquired Hill to boot. Acquiring Lopez was a stroke of genius too. But other than him the team was more or less the same personnel as last year. Bud is just a really good coach.

 

The trade to dump Delly and Henson was arguably better than the trade he just pulled off.

 

Then there was last years Spencer Hawes trade to save salary as well for Plumlee.

 

His last three significant moves have been brilliant. But he's really gonna be tested this off-season. You either overpay to keep Bledsoe, Middleton and then hopefully some combo of Lopez, Brogdon and Mirotic...or what? You let a couple walk, regress and then deal with Giannis impending Free Agency?

 

I like Brogdon a lot...I think he's a much better player than others do, but now you're paying him 10 million or so per year. Or does Bledsoe continue to play like he has this year, a top 7-8 PG if he gets a near max deal? And Middleton...I don't know how you can replace him, but I also don't think he's a max type player either.

 

 

So we'll see. At least as of now we have our 1st this year and the Nuggets 2nd(which we likely won't hold onto). It'll be really interesting to see if Horst can take a number of 3+4 type pieces and find enough of them so that Bud can get the Bucks and Giannis to that next level.

[HiAndTight]

I didn't blame them for drafting him. With the Embiid injury you kind of had to. For me, after the first torn ACL I was in the "cash out on him while you can" camp of trading him for what you could get. Torn ACLs are a big deal and most Bucks fans just put blinders on to it. We already had Giannis and KM at his positions. In his time on the court he wasn't that good and other than the short stretch before the 2nd tear he didn't shoot 3s. For how awful he was on D and rebounding (I only saw him box out one time in all my time watching him) you needed him to be a serious power on offense.

 

Besides the nitpicking his game, to me it was all about eliminating that variable of a 2nd torn ACL and his impending contract situation that would cap us out and it would ruin us if we'd paid it and then he tore his ACL again. They got darn lucky he tore it when he did instead of say now, as they'd have him on a 25 mil contract right now without it. We had Giannis for this 5 year window and we couldn't mess it up and couldn't gamble on a guy like him. We needed a PG and I was all about pushing him when he still had the shine of upside/potential for a PG. I've always had a man crush on Lillard myself.

 

Well...yeah, I think everyone loves Lillard, don't they? I can't imagine Portland trading him for any combo of players we could have put together that didn't include Giannis the last few years. I mean...I'd prefer he was bigger, but I do love his game.

 

Anyway, I wasn't that concerned with the ACL beyond how it hampered his progress. Usually you can recover from a torn ACL and you don't lose much. Especially when you do it at 19 like he did. I mean...if Giannis tore his ACL, would you be looking to move him? I'm just saying it's rather rare that a knee injury really strips you of your explosive ability at that age. Most guys come back just as strong...very few turn into Derek Rose. Now when you DO tear it a 2nd time....that's when it's over. And this was the first I'd heard that DeAndre Jordan was a potential trade target but we were unwilling to move Parker last year. If that's the case, that's obviously a huge mistake.

 

I did think after the first one, with the length and athleticism we were building around him, that if he could be an elite scorer, not just a volume scorer...we could overcome his failings.

 

I still believe he'll have a long and pretty successful career if he accepts a role coming off the bench as a scorer and "stretch 4," though being a 4 in today's NBA...it's pretty tough to make it if you're NOT a stretch 4. Overall, he was my 3rd favorite prospect coming out when we had the top pick...both the Kansas guys looked a lot better to me. I thought Wiggins would become a better player than he has and I thought Embid could be like Hakeem...but that was Sam Hinke's entire philsophy. Everyone talks about the process. It takes multiple shots usually with those premieum picks. They look like they've missed about as badly as one can on Fultz(ignoring that they had to trade away the pick that ended up being Tatum in the process), Noel was awful...but they hit on two of them and that's all they needed.

 

We got lucky on one lottery ticket that paid off big time, but we only had one other crack at a top pick and that's turned into nothing. I don't even like speculating what it'd look like with Embid and Giannis on the floor together....but hopefully we give Giannis enough around him that we can still find a way to capitalize on the 2nd greatest pick in Bucks history(so far).