Milwaukee Bucks 2018 - 2019

[tmwiese55]

So is the idea behind going to 5 trying to encourage less fouling/FTs? Wouldn't it lead to even less D than now? Because that seems to be what people are complaining about in general, that the rules favor the offense too much as it is. And the O players are still going to keep the drawing fouls moves they're doing now. If that is the goal I think you'd just want to go back to allowing more hand checking and/or somehow clean up the offensive players forcing/initiating contact for fouls somehow. Some kind of phrasing like "if it's not a normal offensive motion by the offensive player creating the contact then it's not a foul on the D". similar to how they've tried to clean up the pump fake and jump into the defender. Gives the refs some wiggle room to ignore the offsenvie player slamming himself into the defender.

[HiAndTight]

 

 

So the same person who said THIS about Brogdon:

 

I wouldn't sell him for a downgrade or a draft pick. I'm the same person who said I would pick up Hill's option and pay all that luxury tax to keep the team together, so that's obviously not what I meant. But I would definitely trade him for someone of comparable "win now" value if I could. I think there's a chance some team views him as more of a go-to scorer than he really is, kind of like Jabari's 2nd year, and the Bucks should jump at the chance to get a good offer. Brogdon has that Bill Walton non-union foot injury and I think that's a ticking time bomb. Watching him live in person against the Nets and seeing how slow, unathletic, bulky, and old he's already starting to look changed me from normal skepticism to full-on, emergency "trade him for fair value before it's too late" urgency mode.

 

I also think he's got a bit of an Allen Crabbe/Tyler Johnson "darling" reputation that he won't live up to. All those guys had pretty good numbers in a very favorable situation, and look at the RFA offers they got. Brogdon could get even more. Personally I think if he gets that, then he owes 75% of it to Bledsoe, Middleton, Bud, and especially Giannis. It's kind of a like a 4th wide receiver on a lethal offense putting up numbers comparable to a normal #2 guy because defenses don't pay much attention to him and the offense is designed to spread the ball around. When he plays as the #2 or #3 guy, he just dribbles too much trying to get around his guy and the offense stagnates.

 

 

Thinks he has more trade value than Kuzma and Ingram?

 

 

Also, conflating Brogdon's broken navicular bone with Walton's is just innaccurate. The problem with that bone is that it has very little blood supply and often doesn't heal fully which was the case with Walton, and it's an even bigger issue with big men. Brogdon hurt his in college and hasn't had issues with it since.

 

Of course we're saying both that it's almost an emergency to trade him while saying he's more valuable than two young, dynamic 20 point scorers(I'll leave out the pass first PG, though I do think Ball can develop).

 

Is this just one of those where you take every side of the issue and then later say you were right again? If Brogdon is SO slow and and bulky(I guess having physical, not rail thing PG=bad, but whatever) and such an immediate danger with his Bill Walton-esque feet issues that haven't played out yet and there's almost no reason to suggest he'll be similar to a guy from the 70's and 80's who had constant injuries, but lets argue he is...how do you THEN argue that he's more valuable than Kuzma/Ingram and hell, even Ball who are not free agents this year and all extremely talented young players?

 

Both statements can't be true unless you just flat out believe Ingram and Kuzma are garbage and have not only shown nothing, but don't have much of any upside.

 

Stop quoting me. You misrepresent everything I say and it only leads to an argument. I can simultaneously believe Brogdon is not one of the 4 best players on the team and still think he's better than Kuzma and Ingram. That's not calling anyone garbage. The Lakers are terrible without Lebron and there's a reason for that. The hype about Ingram, Ball, and Kuzma is disgusting ESPN-style pro-LA media bias. They are not garbage, but they certainly aren't good. There's absolutely no basis for rational discussion with someone who calls them "extremely talented" young players. Holy PPGZ bias batman.

 

Incidentally, what did you think of Jabari?

 

I'm literally using your words.

 

You said Brogdon was more valuable than anyone the Lakers were offering.

 

 

The guy you said THIS about;

Watching him live in person against the Nets and seeing how slow, unathletic, bulky, and old he's already starting to look changed me from normal skepticism to full-on, emergency "trade him for fair value before it's too late" urgency mode.

 

Is still more valuable than Kuzma, Ingram and Ball.

 

And OF COURSE the only reason I'd think that those guys were worth more than a guy who is slow, unathletic, bulky and whom who looks SOOOO bad that it's actually almost an emergency that we trade him is because of their PPG. It couldn't be that two of them are 21, the old guy is 23, Ingram is extremely athletic, longer than Giannis, Kuzma is a stretch 4, and Ball is a great passing PG.

 

 

And by the way, if you want to whine that I'm mis-quoting you, despite using your exact words, please show me where I argued with this;

And someone in here said it's a false narrative that the Bucks made all kinds of terrible decisions for years.

 

 

Seems to me your wildly inconstant and you like to speak in hyperbole, but take offense to someone using your exact words while at the same time intentionally mis-representing what someone else said. I said it was hyperbolic to say that the Bucks did not make one single good move in a 4 year period. This dates back to the time the Bucks drafted Giannis IIRC, and that was dismissed much how the Packers drafting of Rodgers gets dismissed because we got lucky he fell to us.

 

 

But that's all beside the point. I'm more interested in hearing how YOU believe that someone you think is in SUCH poor physical shape that the Bucks should be almost desperate to trade him, has LESS trade value than Kuzma and Ingram in particular?

[coolhandluke121]

Brogdon should be traded because his value will never be this high again, and probably not even close. That's the emergency. That doesn't mean he's not better than Kuzma, Ingram, and Ball, who are basically the Lakers' young versions of Blue Edwards, scrawny unathletic Beasley, and non-brain-dead MCW. He still has a lot of value to other teams.

 

Just stop replying to me though, seriously. You already tried to derail this thread once.

 

ETA: It's your opinion of Ingram and Kuzma that's keeping you from understanding the point. They just aren't good.

[HiAndTight]

So is the idea behind going to 5 trying to encourage less fouling/FTs? Wouldn't it lead to even less D than now? Because that seems to be what people are complaining about in general, that the rules favor the offense too much as it is. And the O players are still going to keep the drawing fouls moves they're doing now. If that is the goal I think you'd just want to go back to allowing more hand checking and/or somehow clean up the offensive players forcing/initiating contact for fouls somehow. Some kind of phrasing like "if it's not a normal offensive motion by the offensive player creating the contact then it's not a foul on the D". similar to how they've tried to clean up the pump fake and jump into the defender. Gives the refs some wiggle room to ignore the defender slamming himself into the defender.

 

 

If you're going to go to a move that extreme, I'd like to see hand checking brought back. The ability to play a little more physical on D rather than penalizing guys like Giannis for example would serve to both limit scoring and at least lessen the chances that you're going to get the top players in the game in foul trouble.

 

The reason the NBA is never going to go back to 5 though is because the last thing they want is for any of the big stars to get into foul trouble, perhaps even get a 3rd foul in the first half and then play the whole 2nd half scared of fouling out. Then in a sport that people are notoriously skeptical of for both legitimate reasons(Donaghy) and IMO illligimately reasons(the Knicks/Ewing) can you imagine a Milwaukee V Philly of Milwaukee V Boston Conference finals matchup where Giannis is hit twice in the first minute? You could hear the screams now about how they wanted Boston or Philly to play GSW instead of the small market team. Of course that's always there, but that would only be exaccerbated by the 5 fouls vs 6.

[HiAndTight]

I think this view of the high scoring is a bit recency bias and remember the 90s and early 00s slugfests which makes folks think around 200 total ppg is a lot. The pretty much best era of NBA was the mid 80s. From 79 until 89 when the Pistons starting muddying it up, games averaged 218-220ish, and keep in mind that was with very little 3 pt shooting. Last year it was 213 and this year is 221. this isn't even factoring in the 60s type era that was drastically even more when Wilt was putting up those bananas stats.

 

 

That was more up-tempo basketball, fast breaks, etc. I think you also had good ball movement, with unselfish superstars like Magic and Bird setting the tone. I liked that brand of basketball too. It's not the high scoring I don't like; it's scoring so much on 3's and ft's that kind of bores me. There's a place for that, but it shouldn't dominate the game. I don't like how otherwise mediocre players and teams can overachieve just because of shooting. If Hakeem played today, he would probably have had to learn to shoot 5 3's a game and post up a lot less. That would be a tragic loss IMO. It also encourages guards to be chuckers. I don't want anything close to the 90's, but a think making 3's a little longer and cutting back on the ticky tack calls would reward/encourage more compelling basketball with more diverse approaches.

 

 

You had the same type of mix that you have now. Now you have guys like LeBron, Simmions and Giannis who are unselfish. Back then you had guys like King, Dantley, McCadoo, Dominique, Mark Acquire and the most obvious was Jordan who were for long parts of their career very selfish players. There's always going to be a mix like that. I would be curious to see if there actually was more fast break basketball back then...because it seems to me that just about every successful team gets out and runs now as much as they can.

 

There was an actually interesting article in ESPN the mag about how the game has changed(Which is obvious) and how Boban Marjanovic would have been a dominant scorer before the stretch 4 and stretch 5's and now you can't find a way to get him on the floor.

 

I think Hakeem would have adjusted and would be a better version of Embid, but it'd be interesting to see how you'd find room for some of the other bigs who weren't as athletic. And at a time when legends like Larry Bird are actually talking about a 4 pointer, I'm not sure if it's possible to fix the problem(assuming you agree it is one). Teams are using analytics in every sports and it obviously makes more sense to stop shooting the long 2's and try to shoot exclusively 3's, or shots at the rim. Moving back the line may help a bit...but guys are just gonna get better at shooting from 25 or 25.5 ft.

 

 

Cutting back on the soft calls and maybe bringing back hand checking might move the game closer to these goals than anything else.

[coolhandluke121]

I was gonna say it's weird that the Bucks have finalized the Johnson trade yet, but apparently they're making it a 3-team deal and getting Mirotic. Nice. I definitely thought that Mirotic and Moore were more realistic targets than Davis.

[KeithStone53151]

Is this trade for Mirotic a good move? I don't know a ton about basketball, especially outside the Bucks.

[RollieTime]

Bucks trading Stanley Johnson and Jason Smith to the Pelicans for Nikola Mirotic.

[coolhandluke121]

Is this trade for Mirotic a good move? I don't know a ton about basketball, especially outside the Bucks.

 

Definitely. There was a lot of debate about his role with Chicago and the fight with Bobby Portis, but I think the huge boost he gave NO settled the debate once and for all about the value of a stretch forward who can also rebound and not be a liability on defense. NO literally got better by replacing Cousins with him when Cousins tore his Achilles right around the same time they got Nikola. That's not so much a knock on Cousins as it is a testament to Mirotic's ability to fit in perfectly next to a superstar big.

 

I love Ersan but he looks done. This is a big boost.

[HiAndTight]

Brogdon should be traded because his value will never be this high again, and probably not even close. That's the emergency. That doesn't mean he's not better than Kuzma, Ingram, and Ball, who are basically the Lakers' young versions of Blue Edwards, scrawny unathletic Beasley, and non-brain-dead MCW. He still has a lot of value to other teams.

 

Just stop replying to me though, seriously. You already tried to derail this thread once.

 

ETA: It's your opinion of Ingram and Kuzma that's keeping you from understanding the point. They just aren't good.

 

 

I apologize for asking you to explain what seemed to be a contradictory opinion wherein you say in on breath that Brodgon looks so slow, old, thick, unathletic(all things that Ingram in particular certaily is NOT, nor is Kuzma or Ball) and then just tell me that Ingram and Kuzma in particular have less trade value just because.

 

 

Also, YOU brought ME up out of nowhere when you just flat out made up a comment and tried to attribute it to me. Never once did I say the Bucks didn't male poor personal decisions over a prolonged period of time.

 

 

But that's fine. That'll be the end. I asked for a justification and I got, "just 'cause" basically.

[markeclipse]

Nikola Mirotic is probably the best thing the Bucks could have asked for (realistically). A big that can rebound, shoot the 3, and play some decent defense is pretty valuable especially the way the Bucks run their offense.

 

An shooting upgrade over Snell would be nice, but I'm happy to see this move.

[HiAndTight]

Bucks trading Stanley Johnson and Jason Smith to the Pelicans for Nikola Mirotic.

 

 

Kinda stunning the Bucks were able to pick up a guy like him for garbage pieces on their bench. He's going to be a FA I believe, but he's a really nice player. A stretch 4 who can play a little bit of D. Another athletic big.

[markeclipse]

Now seeing 4 2nd rounders are also included, some from Detroit and some from Milwaukee -- sounds like the early 2020 2nd from Washington is involved. Havent seen if any other Milwaukee picks are part of the 4.

[RollieTime]

This is a huge get for the Bucks. I’m thinking Mirotic will be in when Lopez needs a breather. Looks like he will be taking minutes from Ilyasova and Wilson. This Bucks team just got even better without costing too much.

[coolhandluke121]

 

 

I apologize for asking you to explain what seemed to be a contradictory opinion wherein you say in on breath that Brodgon looks so slow, old, thick, unathletic(all things that Ingram in particular certaily is NOT, nor is Kuzma or Ball) and then just tell me that Ingram and Kuzma in particular have less trade value just because.

 

 

Also, YOU brought ME up out of nowhere when you just flat out made up a comment and tried to attribute it to me. Never once did I say the Bucks didn't male poor personal decisions over a prolonged period of time.

 

 

 

I didn't bring up anyone in that post, nor do I even remember who said the Bucks didn't make a ton of bad decisions.

 

Brogdon's flaws are very different from Ingram's, Kuzma's, and Ball's. Just because he's slow and unathletic doesn't mean I have to like all players who aren't. All of them are kind of overrated for a variety of different reasons. Brogdon is the best of them, but that doesn't mean I want to have to match a Tyler Johnson offer sheet for him. It could be even worse than that.

[HiAndTight]

Nikola Mirotic is probably the best thing the Bucks could have asked for (realistically). A big that can rebound, shoot the 3, and play some decent defense is pretty valuable especially the way the Bucks run their offense.

 

An shooting upgrade over Snell would be nice, but I'm happy to see this move.

 

 

I'm absolutely thrilled about this trade because I never would have thought those two players would net us a guy who could very easily become our 6th man.

 

The only question I have is I've seen him play a little bit...I haven't seen what his defense looks like vs other bigs. Guys who gave us all kinda of trouble last year, Horford, Ibaka. Is he physical enough to stay down there and play them tough?

[coolhandluke121]

Now seeing 4 2nd rounders are also included, some from Detroit and some from Milwaukee -- sounds like the early 2020 2nd from Washington is involved. Havent seen if any other Milwaukee picks are part of the 4.

 

I figured there had to be more. Mirotic is worth more than expiring contracts.

 

I think DJ Wilson has been amazing and I hope he still gets his minutes. I honestly wouldn't doubt that he's one of the most valuable bigs in the entire league as early as next year. LRMAM level defense, possibly even quicker, with better size and a great 3-point stroke. That's insane. I could see Mirotic, Giannis, and Wilson playing together, as Wilson is quick enough to guard the entire half-court.

[coolhandluke121]

 

The only question I have is I've seen him play a little bit...I haven't seen what his defense looks like vs other bigs. Guys who gave us all kinda of trouble last year, Horford, Ibaka. Is he physical enough to stay down there and play them tough?

 

No. That would be asking an awful lot. But a lot of those guys don't want to chase him all over the arc, and in this day and age that probably trumps low-post scoring.

[HiAndTight]

 

 

I apologize for asking you to explain what seemed to be a contradictory opinion wherein you say in on breath that Brodgon looks so slow, old, thick, unathletic(all things that Ingram in particular certaily is NOT, nor is Kuzma or Ball) and then just tell me that Ingram and Kuzma in particular have less trade value just because.

 

 

Also, YOU brought ME up out of nowhere when you just flat out made up a comment and tried to attribute it to me. Never once did I say the Bucks didn't male poor personal decisions over a prolonged period of time.

 

 

 

I didn't bring up anyone in that post, nor do I even remember who said the Bucks didn't make a ton of bad decisions.

 

Brogdon's flaws are very different from Ingram's, Kuzma's, and Ball's. Just because he's slow and unathletic doesn't mean I have to like all players who aren't. All of them are kind of overrated for a variety of different reasons. Brogdon is the best of them, but that doesn't mean I want to have to match a Tyler Johnson offer sheet for him. It could be even worse than that.

 

 

Lets at least try to be intellectually honest here. You quoted me for half the sentance in taking a shot at me, then changed the rest of the words to deliberatly mis-represent what I said. Saying you didn't know is just disengenious.

 

As for Ingram and Kuzma in particular, I am a far bigger fan of Brogdon than you obviously and see no reason why his foot would suddenly start causing him problems this long after the injury(unless he were to injure it again, but that's no different than the risk any player deals with). And I still believe those two have far more trade value than Brogdon.

 

First of all, they're both several years younger. Ingram is freakishly long and athletic. Both have shown flashes of greatness.

 

Ball I like as a big, physical pass first PG, but I don't think he still has the untapped upside the others do.

 

 

For the record, I'd be willing to give Brogdon a deal in the range of Johnson. Preferably 2-3 million AAV less, so 4 years maybe 46, but I don't believe he's unathletic, or close to breaking down as you do. I'd also love to have Ingram on the Bucks as I think he has a ton of upside, moreso than Kuzma. So I guess we just don't agree.

[homer]

Mirotic is a perfect fit for this offense. He just has to be serviceable on defense to be well worth it.

[wallus]

I am incredibly excited after this trade. This team has a legit chance at the finals.

 

One thing that might be overlooked is the roster spot that is now opened as well. I would like an Ellington/Matthews buyout signing.

[HiAndTight]

 

The only question I have is I've seen him play a little bit...I haven't seen what his defense looks like vs other bigs. Guys who gave us all kinda of trouble last year, Horford, Ibaka. Is he physical enough to stay down there and play them tough?

 

No. That would be asking an awful lot. But a lot of those guys don't want to chase him all over the arc, and in this day and age that probably trumps low-post scoring.

 

 

Well, I don't expect him to be able to do it all for two guys that had no business playing on this team, but we're gonna have to put SOMEONE on Horford assuming we see the Celts(and I still think they're the frontrunners in the East) and Ibaka and the Raptors are obviously still a factor.

 

 

Wilson seems a bit thin yet to be able to deal with Horford in the half-court game. Is he going to be our best option? Lopez is going to give you effort, but Horford just crushed us last year and came up with so many big shots....that seems like the biggest thing missing from our team. It'd be a niche role, defending other bigs.

 

 

This probably ends any hopes I had of a DeAndre Jordan signing....though those were likely ended when the Knicks for some reason, despite obviously going for Zion or JT AREN'T going to buy him out.

 

 

 

Either way....we just took two pieces of figurative garbage from our roster and turned them into a really nice rotattional piece. I thought we'd got less for Thon than we could have, but perhaps this move was already in the works as it was decided pretty quickly after that trade that Johnson would be traded also.

 

 

This HAS to be an A+ for the Bucks, right?

[HiAndTight]

I am incredibly excited after this trade. This team has a legit chance at the finals.

 

One thing that might be overlooked is the roster spot that is now opened as well. I would like an Ellington/Matthews buyout signing.[/quote

 

 

As I said in my last post, I'd like to see if we could get a big who can be physical and match up vs Horford and to a lesser degree Serge(or Cousins/Green if we're lucky enough to get to that point).

 

The NYK are keeping Jordan....so is there any buyout candidate who we could bring in who could give us a solid 10-15 minutes a game defending talented bigs?

 

 

 

This also makes watching Tobias Harris getting traded to the Sixers sting juuuust slightly less. I know by this point he'd likely be gone from the Bucks, but that trade to me is the worst trade the Bucks have made since I've been a Bucks fan(I don't consider the Dirk transaction a legitimate trade). Giving away a talented 6'9 SM for a rental in JJ Reddick...who he's starting next with now BTW.

[HiAndTight]

Mirotic is a perfect fit for this offense. He just has to be serviceable on defense to be well worth it.

 

 

I'm just trying to find a single reason why the Pelicans would POSSIBLY be on board with this?

 

What the heck do they gain by making this deal? They save a little money this year, right? Is that all? I'd have to think they could have gotten more.

[markeclipse]

Mirotic is a perfect fit for this offense. He just has to be serviceable on defense to be well worth it.

 

 

I'm just trying to find a single reason why the Pelicans would POSSIBLY be on board with this?

 

What the heck do they gain by making this deal? They save a little money this year, right? Is that all? I'd have to think they could have gotten more.

 

 

 

They got 4 future 2nd round picks, including 2 of Washington's that could be early. With Mirotic a FA after the season, and Pelicans rebuilding... that seems to be an ok get for someone they'd probably let walk anyway