Milwaukee Bucks 2018 - 2019

[coolhandluke121]

 

Giannis? Yes, if teams start doubling and tripling Brogdon, I would expect his production to go down. I don't know who has ever hinted that he was on the same level as Giannis. One's is potentially on his way to becoming the best player in the league. There's a reason why we're talking about him MAYBE becoming the 2nd best.

 

I don't get it though. He's shooting and scoring. He's playing very good D. He DOES often defend the other teams best guard. Not sure why we need to look past the contributions of him and pick away at why he's performing so well and excusing it.

 

He's playing great on a team that has had the best record in the NBA, or been right around it. He'll never be defended like LeBron or Giannis or any other HOF talent because he isn't one.

 

He's not guarding the other team's best players very often. Bledsoe guards the best guards and Khris guards guys like Kawhi and Durant. He would be easier to replace than those two. He's shooting and scoring? LOL, that's like ignoring WAR and looking at runs or RBI's. He's good, but he's not the 2nd-best guy on the team. He's way behind Bledsoe, Lopez, Khris, and of course Giannis in RPM. He's even a tick below Hill, albeit in a small sample (that basically means the Bucks struggle more when any of the other starters come out of the game, but don't suffer when Brogdon comes out, although there are conflating variables of course). His contributions aren't that hard to replace.

 

As for Wilson, I think he's literally quicker than Brogdon on defense (not just quicker for a big man but literally quicker) with legit center size and strength and possibly comparable shooting at a position where it's much harder to find good shooting. He also has a small fraction of the experience Brogdon does. He started playing at a late age, had a stress fracture in high school, underwent extensive rehabilitation for biomechanics in college, and missed time in college with ankle injuries. He has a much higher ceiling than Brogdon.

[coolhandluke121]

You also seem to speak in hyperbole. Kidd was terrible. No, he wasn't. He may not be on the level of Coach Bud, but he was not terrible.

 

 

How anyone can watch what's happening and not conclude Kidd was terrible is beyond me. He's an arrogant, stubborn sociopath whose personality has poisoned every city he's been in at some point. When he was playing, his talent made up for it. Coaching? Not so much. Not missing that isoball offense at all.

[HiAndTight]

You also seem to speak in hyperbole. Kidd was terrible. No, he wasn't. He may not be on the level of Coach Bud, but he was not terrible.

 

 

How anyone can watch what's happening and not conclude Kidd was terrible is beyond me. He's an arrogant, stubborn sociopath whose personality has poisoned every city he's been in at some point. When he was playing, his talent made up for it. Coaching? Not so much. Not missing that isoball offense at all.

 

 

Yeah....and this is where I'm just...out. There's ridiculous(claiming you predicted the Cain, Yellich and then Grandal acquisitions as well as how the Brewers would eventually use their pitching staff in the post-season a full off-season before)...that I can just ignore and move past. Then there's this....just absolutely ridiculous level of hyperbole.

 

Have you ever met the guy? Don't answer, it's rhetorical. I'm just wondering how you can conclude a guy is a "sociopath," from "watching." Unless you're not talking about basketball.

 

Nevermind you said that coaches don't get credit for players improving, becuase improving your skills playing basketball is just a matter of doing something over and over again(ie, Rote). So developing young players doesn't even take coaching apparently. All they need to do is shoot a certain number of shots a day and repeat the same things over and over and then they're good.

[coolhandluke121]

You also seem to speak in hyperbole. Kidd was terrible. No, he wasn't. He may not be on the level of Coach Bud, but he was not terrible.

 

 

How anyone can watch what's happening and not conclude Kidd was terrible is beyond me. He's an arrogant, stubborn sociopath whose personality has poisoned every city he's been in at some point. When he was playing, his talent made up for it. Coaching? Not so much. Not missing that isoball offense at all.

 

 

Yeah....and this is where I'm just...out. There's ridiculous(claiming you predicted the Cain, Yellich and then Grandal acquisitions as well as how the Brewers would eventually use their pitching staff well ahead of time)...that I can just ignore and move past. Then there's this....just absolutely ridiculous level of hyperbole.

 

 

Never claimed I predicted those acquisitions. I said those were the guys I wanted. As for predicting some of their changes to how they use their staff, you could easily look that up in last year's free agency debates about adding a starting pitcher.

 

Are you aware of Kidd's history? Drunk-driving, wife-beating, kicking teammates in the head at Cal, the Lawrence Frank incident, sleeping with his own teammate's gf behind his back in Dallas? I think you're in over your head here. Saying "Kidd is not terrible" should have tipped me off right away.

[HiAndTight]

 

Giannis? Yes, if teams start doubling and tripling Brogdon, I would expect his production to go down. I don't know who has ever hinted that he was on the same level as Giannis. One's is potentially on his way to becoming the best player in the league. There's a reason why we're talking about him MAYBE becoming the 2nd best.

 

I don't get it though. He's shooting and scoring. He's playing very good D. He DOES often defend the other teams best guard. Not sure why we need to look past the contributions of him and pick away at why he's performing so well and excusing it.

 

He's playing great on a team that has had the best record in the NBA, or been right around it. He'll never be defended like LeBron or Giannis or any other HOF talent because he isn't one.

 

He's not guarding the other team's best players very often. Bledsoe guards the best guards and Khris guards guys like Kawhi and Durant. He would be easier to replace than those two. He's shooting and scoring? LOL, that's like ignoring WAR and looking at runs or RBI's. He's good, but he's not the 2nd-best guy on the team. He's way behind Bledsoe, Lopez, Khris, and of course Giannis in RPM. He's even a tick below Hill, albeit in a small sample (that basically means the Bucks struggle more when any of the other starters come out of the game, but don't suffer when Brogdon comes out, although there are conflating variables of course). His contributions aren't that hard to replace.

 

As for Wilson, I think he's literally quicker than Brogdon on defense (not just quicker for a big man but literally quicker) with legit center size and strength and possibly comparable shooting at a position where it's much harder to find good shooting. He also has a small fraction of the experience Brogdon does. He started playing at a late age, had a stress fracture in high school, underwent extensive rehabilitation for biomechanics in college, and missed time in college with ankle injuries. He has a much higher ceiling than Brogdon.

 

 

A-Who said he would defend Kevin Durant? Is he suddenly a backcourt player?

B-Being a 40/50/90 guy is nothing CLOSE to the same as using RBI's as a barometer for a baseball player.

C-Wilson's not quicker than Brogdon.

D-Never said he WAS the best player on the team other than Giannis.

E-I don't care how much time Wilson missed. When did this become a referendum on Wilson vs Brogdon? This was originally about who we should prioritize re-signing and if he's BECOMING the 2nd best player on the team.

 

You can keep taking things I haven't said to argue with, but I'm not sure what purpose that's serving other than you becoming less reasonable in this thread.

 

 

But fine, Brogdon is not great, he's easy to replace and Kidd's a sociopath......where exactly is that "ignore" button fellas?

[HiAndTight]

 

 

Never claimed I predicted those acquisitions. I said those were the guys I wanted. As for predicting some of their changes to how they use their staff, you could easily look that up in last year's free agency debates about adding a starting pitcher.

 

Are you aware of Kidd's history? Drunk-driving, wife-beating, kicking teammates in the head at Cal, the Lawrence Frank incident, sleeping with his own teammate's gf behind his back in Dallas? I think you're in over your head here. Saying "Kidd is not terrible" should have tipped me off right away.

 

Are YOU aware of what the word scociopath means?

 

Let me tell you what it DOESN'T mean. Arguments with your assistant coach, a drunk driving which in Wisconsin is a municipal ticket, sleeping with another guys Girl Friend or rumors of fighting in college. That's commonly refered to as dime store psychologist who in this case is going to absurd extremes to make their point by using every accusation against a guy from the time he was 18 through 43 because you're trying to argue he's a terrible coach.

 

 

I think YOU telling me I'm in over my head here is laughable.

[tmwiese55]

If you watched the Bucks the last few years and didn't think Kidd was terrible and likely the worst coach in the NBA you're missing something. National writers were saying it as well, this just isn't hind sight hating. The Bucks online fan and twitter community were on it for two years. The Xs and Os were terrible, absolutely terrible.

 

Then factor in the personality stuff mentioned here where he's just an awful human being. Then after the fact the stories start coming out about how he treated the players and yes it comes off sociopathy (as much as that word can be used for bball coaches and not true psychos). Read up on some of the stuff, I really don't think you have the full picture. His exit from the Nets (well he exited badly literally every place he ever was), Frank, film sessions and practices with the team. I was never a Jabari guy by any means but he had no shot dealing with this idiot as coach. Jason Kidd should never coach another team again and I don't think he will.

[monkeyman343434]

1st of all, Kawhi wasn't a 2nd round pick, he was the #15 overall pick in the draft.

 

2nd, onto regularly scheduled programming, two big back to back wins for the Bucks, wins they need to have in this soft spot of their schedule and into a virtual tie with the Raptors for the top spot in the East. @ OKC is the most difficult game in the next 5 game stretch, before going to Toronto to finish off the season series. Hope they can get that win on the 31st to have the tie-breaker vs Toronto.

[homer]

You also seem to speak in hyperbole. Kidd was terrible. No, he wasn't. He may not be on the level of Coach Bud, but he was not terrible.

 

 

How anyone can watch what's happening and not conclude Kidd was terrible is beyond me. He's an arrogant, stubborn sociopath whose personality has poisoned every city he's been in at some point. When he was playing, his talent made up for it. Coaching? Not so much. Not missing that isoball offense at all.

 

I think Kidd would have been fine if he was a head coach in, say, 1995.

[Outlander]

Maybe if he was a player/coach on that team sure.

[tmwiese55]

His Xs and Os in 1995 probably would've been fine. His personality would be cancer anytime, just like it was his whole playing career.

 

It's funny all us idiots on the internet the last couple years calling for ball screens, 3s, ball movement, player movement on offense (you know modern NBA offense) were kind of mocked at times by management folks and the new coach comes in and does exactly that and they have the best offense in the league. Personally I'm shocked it works better than a hi post iso with a tough contested 2 point jumper.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Are YOU aware of what the word scociopath means?

 

Let me tell you what it DOESN'T mean. Arguments with your assistant coach, a drunk driving which in Wisconsin is a municipal ticket, sleeping with another guys Girl Friend or rumors of fighting in college.

 

I do know what it means. I graduated with high honors in pscyhology from Wisconsin. I'll grant that you usually can't clinically diagnose a public figure as a sociopath, but where there's smoke there's fire. I noticed you left out the wife-beating by the way. Pretty convenient. How about the confirmed incident where Kidd claimed the players voted to suspend Jabari, but the incident never happened? Or the way he said Giannis texted him to say he shouldn't have been fired, which Giannis objected to because it was supposed to be a private conversation? A sociopath is a supreme manipulator who doesn't care about other people. Kidd checks an awful lot of boxes.

[coolhandluke121]

 

It's funny all us idiots on the internet the last couple years calling for ball screens, 3s, ball movement, player movement on offense (you know modern NBA offense) were kind of mocked at times by management folks and the new coach comes in and does exactly that and they have the best offense in the league. Personally I'm shocked it works better than a hi post iso with a tough contested 2 point jumper.

 

Seriously. Don't know why some people get such cognitive dissonance from ordinary people noticing a guy in a prestigious position is actually a moron. It happens all the time.

[coolhandluke121]

 

 

A-Who said he would defend Kevin Durant? Is he suddenly a backcourt player?

B-Being a 40/50/90 guy is nothing CLOSE to the same as using RBI's as a barometer for a baseball player.

C-Wilson's not quicker than Brogdon.

D-Never said he WAS the best player on the team other than Giannis.

E-I don't care how much time Wilson missed. When did this become a referendum on Wilson vs Brogdon? This was originally about who we should prioritize re-signing and if he's BECOMING the 2nd best player on the team.

 

You can keep taking things I haven't said to argue with, but I'm not sure what purpose that's serving other than you becoming less reasonable in this thread.

 

 

 

Me, in response to someone who literally said Brogdon's the 2nd-best player on the team: "I don't think Brogdon's the 2nd-best player on the team. Here's why."

You: 5 rambling posts complaining about what I said.

Also you: "Who ever said Brogdon was the 2nd-best player on the team?"

Also you: "You contradict yourself when you say Brogdon's not the 2nd-best player on the team, but you think Wilson has a very high ceiling." Wut.

Also you: "Who made this a referendum on Brogdon vs. Wilson?" (You did.)

Also you: "You keep taking things I haven't said to argue with."

[FVBrewerFan]

Take it outside boys. Nobody cares about your Brogdon/Kidd/Sociopath fight, or whatever it is you're fighting about.

[homer]

Yes, let's move on.

[Pugger]

I'll fully admit to being a Bucks bandwagoner. I always check their scores and hope they do will, usually make it to one game per year. But the NBA is just structured so poorly. So many games, and a regular season that means little as so many teams make the playoffs. Even this is sort of hard to care too much about. I end up tuning in fully when the playoffs start. I just can't follow 82 games over such a long time period. It's much easier for me to digest baseball even though play twice as many.

 

Back in the Mecca days with Moncrief and Cummings were on the team (I guess I'm showing my age!) when we lived in GB my hubby and I went to several games a year but when the team went south we stopped watching so I guess we are bandwagoners too. We now watch the games again on our Sling Box down here. Very fun indeed.

[Pugger]

Oh man, those unis are hideous...

 

(No offense intended RoCoBrewfan)

 

Is there a significance to these eyesores?

Something to do with the mecca floor. Didnt really catch the explanation.

 

Yes, they resemble the old floor at the Mecca.

[Jenkins5]

Think we all know the tiers of our roster:

 

Giannis is legit top 5 player in league right now

 

Middleton, Bledsoe, Lopez are all borderline all-stars who on any given night Robin with Giannis

 

Brogdon may not be on that level but he is about as valuable as it gets as a role piece. Great defender, doesn’t turn over ball, scores. He is definition of a team player & does make this team better. Losing him wouldn’t break us but he does make team better.

 

Arguing if he is 2nd best or 5th best is useless... doesn’t matter. if you can’t see his value & how good & solid of a player he is, then I strongly question your analysis. The Fact you bring up advanced metrics to almost discredit Brogdon is questionable

 

Brodgen advanced numbers

59% effective shooting 3rd to Giannis & Wilson

62% true shooting 2nd to Giannis

12.0 Player impact estimate 3rd to Giannis & Bledsoe

19.4 Usage percent 4th

101.7 Defensive rating higher than Bledsoe & Middleton

111.3 Offensive Rating is below The big 4 & right next to DJ Wilson.

 

Again clearly Brogdon isn’t better than Bledsoe Middleton Lopez.... but him & Wilson are absolutely key to this team. Wilson is an advanced metrics stud right now! However in no way is he quicker than Malcolm nor does Bledsoe always take top guard. Brogdon’s 6’4 & defensive ability match him up much better vs other teams top guard very often. Bud matches them up to match strengths. Bledsoe is smaller but extremely quick & explosive. Brogdon bigger, longer, not as fast twitch. Bledsoe will take Curry, Brogdon Thompson type deal.

 

The core of this team right now is 6 players with solid bench help with guys like Snell, Hill, Ersan, & Pat. Donte, Thon, and Brown have their nights. They play deep team ball with great rotation put in place by Bud.

[coolhandluke121]

 

Arguing if he is 2nd best or 5th best is useless... doesn’t matter. if you can’t see his value & how good & solid of a player he is, then I strongly question your analysis. The Fact you bring up advanced metrics to almost discredit Brogdon is questionable

 

Brodgen advanced numbers

59% effective shooting 3rd to Giannis & Wilson

62% true shooting 2nd to Giannis

12.0 Player impact estimate 3rd to Giannis & Bledsoe

19.4 Usage percent 4th

101.7 Defensive rating higher than Bledsoe & Middleton

111.3 Offensive Rating is below The big 4 & right next to DJ Wilson.

 

Again clearly Brogdon isn’t better than Bledsoe Middleton Lopez....

 

Friendly reminder that I merely disagreed with someone who said he's the 2nd-best player on the team, and then I explained why. You're saying the same thing, so I don't see what the issue is. It's not a case of me digging on him for fun or anything. It's been taken totally out of context for some reason. That's just excessively high praise, and polished scorers are often subject to being a little overrated.

 

I don't really consider those advanced stats. I mean, it's sort of like calling OPS an advanced stat, because it's a pretty small part of the picture if you get down to it. On/off stats, controlled for lineups, are much better. Granted, they're not perfect either, but they're the NBA equivalent of WAR and they're the best we've got. WAR captures how much value a player adds to the team, controlling for position, and adjusted on/off stats measures whether the team plays better or worse with a player on the court, controlling for the on/off profiles of teammates in the same lineups. Several of those other stats just measure scoring proficiency with no context. Defensive and offensive rating are worth something, but they also need to be adjusted for lineups. In any case, the offensive rating does lend tentative support to what I'm saying about how much Brogdon benefits tremendously from playing with the other guys and the attention they get, but lineups can really affect that (for example, Giannis used to often play with bench units, so his raw on/off stats didn't do justice to his impact).

[Mr Southpaw]

Think we all know the tiers of our roster:

 

Giannis is legit top 5 player in league right now

 

Middleton, Bledsoe, Lopez are all borderline all-stars who on any given night Robin with Giannis

 

Brogdon may not be on that level but he is about as valuable as it gets as a role piece. Great defender, doesn’t turn over ball, scores. He is definition of a team player & does make this team better. Losing him wouldn’t break us but he does make team better.

 

Arguing if he is 2nd best or 5th best is useless... doesn’t matter. if you can’t see his value & how good & solid of a player he is, then I strongly question your analysis. The Fact you bring up advanced metrics to almost discredit Brogdon is questionable

 

Brodgen advanced numbers

59% effective shooting 3rd to Giannis & Wilson

62% true shooting 2nd to Giannis

12.0 Player impact estimate 3rd to Giannis & Bledsoe

19.4 Usage percent 4th

101.7 Defensive rating higher than Bledsoe & Middleton

111.3 Offensive Rating is below The big 4 & right next to DJ Wilson.

 

Again clearly Brogdon isn’t better than Bledsoe Middleton Lopez.... but him & Wilson are absolutely key to this team. Wilson is an advanced metrics stud right now! However in no way is he quicker than Malcolm nor does Bledsoe always take top guard. Brogdon’s 6’4 & defensive ability match him up much better vs other teams top guard very often. Bud matches them up to match strengths. Bledsoe is smaller but extremely quick & explosive. Brogdon bigger, longer, not as fast twitch. Bledsoe will take Curry, Brogdon Thompson type deal.

 

The core of this team right now is 6 players with solid bench help with guys like Snell, Hill, Ersan, & Pat. Donte, Thon, and Brown have their nights. They play deep team ball with great rotation put in place by Bud.

Very nice summation of the team. I wish they would find a spot for C Wood. I believe he is a diamond yet to be seen

[monkeyman343434]

I think we can all agree that the starting lineup as currently structured is pretty awesome, and would be great if all four of Bledsoe, Brogdon, Middleton, and Lopez could be brought back, while still having a solid bench which has really helped Bud be able to rest the starters to keep them fresh.

 

It seems like the Bucks have a glut of backup capable wings, maybe this is an area they could deal from to help bring back the Starting 5. Unless they flip Hill by the trade deadline to help acquire a long-term asset, I think it's 100% a done deal that he's cut and paid the $1M buy-out to save $17M for next year's cap. That still leaves Connaughton, DiVincenzo, Snell, and Brown as backup guards/wings. Snell has the biggest cap hit next year at $11M, is Thon an asset that some team would be willing to take on Snell and Thon in a deal for a '18-'19 expiring contract (might have to add a 2nd round pick or two?)? Snell is certainly a help for contention this year, but is the drop from him to Connaughton/DiVincenzo and Thon to more minutes for Wilson/Wood, etc worth having the extra room to bring back the starting 5 for next year?

 

Also to take into account would be the fact that there will be teams buying out players soon, so Snell or anyone else traded to make some cap room, that the Bucks could replace and even upgrade at those bench spots heading into the playoffs. There's some solid depth on this roster that should allow management to hopefully make a deal that helps both this year, as well as keeping the core intact for the future (I know, already has helped with the Hill trade, hoping they make one more deal to really reinforce the objective).

[coolhandluke121]

All 4 of them can be brought back. The Bucks should definitely pay the luxury tax and do so, unless offers get absurd. The Bucks do have some bargaining power because they have so much depth, so nobody except maybe Bledsoe can hold them hostage. They shouldn't get insane offers. Smart teams will note how guys like Bledsoe, Khris, and Lopez are sacrificing touches and numbers to be part of a winning formula, but there's still not many smart teams out there, and smart teams don't throw huge offers at guys like that anyway.

 

The way the CBA works, you really have to bring guys back if you're competing for a title. You can't just say "we'll spend $20m on someone else." You either spend it on Bledsoe, or you lose the right to spend it. I don't think they have full Bird Rights for Lopez, but they can use the exception salary slot to keep him if he'll accept it. They've arguably done as much for his image as he's done for them, so hopefully he stays.

 

I'd even go so far as to say they should just keep Snell and Hill. The owners got a lot of money for their stadium, and should invest in the luxury tax to keep a contender together. It's either pay Hill $19m or find a pg (who can also play sg and has a ton of playoff experience) on a minimum contract. The latter is a dangerous option for a contender. Using the luxury tax compromises the ability to use the full exception the following year, but they're going to pay the tax anyway so they may as well go all-in on it.

 

Zach Lowe has a really terrific piece on ESPN on why Bledsoe should be one of the last all-stars in the East. He made a slight case for Middleton, but Bledsoe has brought his top-flight skill (defense) more consistently than Khris has brought his (shooting). No mention of Brogdon at all, and I don't think there should be. Lopez could have a borderline case over, say, Lowry or Sabonis.

[tmwiese55]

All 4 of them can be brought back. The Bucks should definitely pay the luxury tax and do so, unless offers get absurd. The Bucks do have some bargaining power because they have so much depth, so nobody except maybe Bledsoe can hold them hostage. They shouldn't get insane offers. Smart teams will note how guys like Bledsoe, Khris, and Lopez are sacrificing touches and numbers to be part of a winning formula, but there's still not many smart teams out there, and smart teams don't throw huge offers at guys like that anyway.

 

The way the CBA works, you really have to bring guys back if you're competing for a title. You can't just say "we'll spend $20m on someone else." You either spend it on Bledsoe, or you lose the right to spend it. I don't think they have full Bird Rights for Lopez, but they can use the exception salary slot to keep him if he'll accept it. They've arguably done as much for his image as he's done for them, so hopefully he stays.

 

I'd even go so far as to say they should just keep Snell and Hill. The owners got a lot of money for their stadium, and should invest in the luxury tax to keep a contender together. It's either pay Hill $19m or find a pg (who can also play sg and has a ton of playoff experience) on a minimum contract. The latter is a dangerous option for a contender. Using the luxury tax compromises the ability to use the full exception the following year, but they're going to pay the tax anyway so they may as well go all-in on it.

 

Zach Lowe has a really terrific piece on ESPN on why Bledsoe should be one of the last all-stars in the East. He made a slight case for Middleton, but Bledsoe has brought his top-flight skill (defense) more consistently than Khris has brought his (shooting). No mention of Brogdon at all, and I don't think there should be. Lopez could have a borderline case over, say, Lowry or Sabonis.

 

This is the main point being missed by the "let Middleton walk, he's not worth 25 mil" crowd right now. Sure, you'd prefer not to be paying him mid 20s but if you let him go you have no route to replace, plus don't have his (or someone else's) contract to trade in the future to remain over the cap. It's like it's going right over everyone's head.

[long ball]

The scary thing about thinking of next off season is that this might be the Bucks best chance to win the NBA Finals.