2B: Villar/Sogard/Perez

[And That]

There is context to this instead of just plugging wRC+ in.

Correct, but the person said Orf didn't hit until Colorado Springs. That's what I was responding to. So I had the correct context, which was that he hit. QED.

[bill hAll Star]

Again, I'm just saying the logic of knowing who sucks and trying something else rather than repeating the same thing and hoping it'll be different this time. Is it just a bit of fandom and stuff you can only really say because we don't have all the info/scouting/expertise. Yea probably, but that's the whole point of the board. But in a lot of cases, it's true in all kinds of things in life and in many sports. Basically, sometimes just gotta try something new. And sometimes guys just continue to beat projections/expectations in all sports.

 

 

This is actually an interesting fandom question and maybe it can answer your "scouting" question that "we don't know" (I'm trying to give a hint to what the scouts may see). Can you find more than a handful of players that hit less than 5 homers in an MLB season that do not have elite speed that routinely put up over a .700 OPS?

 

We can quibble over projected homers, but I think given that Orf won't be a full-time guy and that Colorado Springs helps him out a bit, that he is probably a ~5 HR type of guy.

 

Tommy La Stella is one of the few I can think of and he has displayed much more power than Orf coming up.

[tmwiese55]

I'm fine with you guys saying you'd rather just keep trying guys who we already know suck. I'd rather try something else. Sometimes guys beat projections, but you don't know if you don't try. That said, I hope we can all agree that whoever this 25th guy is he better not be starting 3-5 times a week like Sogard was...

[bill hAll Star]

I'm fine with you guys saying you'd rather just keep trying guys who we already know suck. I'd rather try something else. Sometimes guys beat projections, but you don't know if you don't try. That said, I hope we can all agree that whoever this 25th guy is he better not be starting 3-5 times a week like Sogard was...

 

I actually despised Sogard being on the roster and getting so many chances and ditto on Drake. I have no affinity for Franklin. I'm OK trying something different (I'd like to get creative going out-of-house). I just am totally fine with a guy like Orf not really getting a chance because I tend to agree with them that he's very likely to be worse than the other options.

 

If they want to give Orf a shot, go ahead. It can't be much worse, that's for sure.

 

And yeah, go with Villar for the bulk of starts for now.

[tmwiese55]

I'm fine with you guys saying you'd rather just keep trying guys who we already know suck. I'd rather try something else. Sometimes guys beat projections, but you don't know if you don't try. That said, I hope we can all agree that whoever this 25th guy is he better not be starting 3-5 times a week like Sogard was...

 

I actually despised Sogard being on the roster and getting so many chances and ditto on Drake. I have no affinity for Franklin. I'm OK trying something different (I'd like to get creative going out-of-house). I just am totally fine with a guy like Orf not really getting a chance because I tend to agree with them that he's very likely to be worse than the other options.

 

If they want to give Orf a shot, go ahead. It can't be much worse, that's for sure.

 

And yeah, go with Villar for the bulk of starts for now.

 

More or less what I've been saying, haha, glad we could sing kumbaya. And yea it's not like I'm some Orf proponent, basically all I know of him is what has been said by ya'll here and the numbers thrown out. Heck, even the guy brought up today I'd rather have than Franklin. I suppose partly because at least it's new to me. Though it seems he has had his chances already. But beyond that 'fandom' type view, he just seems better at IF D based on what ya'll say. Like you said, there has to be a better option sitting somewhere outside of the organization. But in the meantime, Villar vs righties and Perez vs lefities should just be ran out for a few weeks. Villar's last chance to sink or swim.

[adambr2]

I think Dubon would have been the no brainer callup now. It’s a shame he got hurt.

[coolhandluke121]

 

More or less what I've been saying, haha, glad we could sing kumbaya. And yea it's not like I'm some Orf proponent, basically all I know of him is what has been said by ya'll here and the numbers thrown out. Heck, even the guy brought up today I'd rather have than Franklin. I suppose partly because at least it's new to me. Though it seems he has had his chances already. But beyond that 'fandom' type view, he just seems better at IF D based on what ya'll say. Like you said, there has to be a better option sitting somewhere outside of the organization. But in the meantime, Villar vs righties and Perez vs lefities should just be ran out for a few weeks. Villar's last chance to sink or swim.

 

Villar is still better against LHP's for his career.

 

I don't think anybody really wanted Franklin or Sogard or Blanco over Orf this week. It's the negativity about the front office's decision-making and the complaining that rubbed several of us the wrong way. The idea that Orf is likely to be a little better than any of those guys is just not really supported by any objective evidence. The evidence actually supports the other 3 as being slightly more talented players, although Sogard and Blanco might be too far past their primes. It's already kind of annoying when fans complain about moves the team made, but when the front office is actually doing a great job and making the rational choice and people complain so adamantly, it's 10x more annoying.

 

People could be right or wrong about Orf, but on the whole the front office is so much better than any of us that's it not even funny. People should enjoy it while they can because that's not always the case. See the Bucks for the last 25 years, for example, if you want to understand how frustrating it can be to be a fan of a team where you would literally probably do a better job than the front office. I bet my salary that the Brewers' front office crushes every single one of us in decision-making over the last few years, even if a few of us have, by pure luck, occasionally out-guessed them on what they should have done in a situation.

[jerichoholicninja]

 

More or less what I've been saying, haha, glad we could sing kumbaya. And yea it's not like I'm some Orf proponent, basically all I know of him is what has been said by ya'll here and the numbers thrown out. Heck, even the guy brought up today I'd rather have than Franklin. I suppose partly because at least it's new to me. Though it seems he has had his chances already. But beyond that 'fandom' type view, he just seems better at IF D based on what ya'll say. Like you said, there has to be a better option sitting somewhere outside of the organization. But in the meantime, Villar vs righties and Perez vs lefities should just be ran out for a few weeks. Villar's last chance to sink or swim.

 

Villar is still better against LHP's for his career.

 

I don't think anybody really wanted Franklin or Sogard or Blanco over Orf this week. It's the negativity about the front office's decision-making and the complaining that rubbed several of us the wrong way. The idea that Orf is likely to be a little better than any of those guys is just not really supported by any objective evidence. The evidence actually supports the other 3 as being slightly more talented players, although Sogard and Blanco might be too far past their primes. It's already kind of annoying when fans complain about moves the team made, but when the front office is actually doing a great job and making the rational choice and people complain so adamantly, it's 10x more annoying.

 

People could be right or wrong about Orf, but on the whole the front office is so much better than any of us that's it not even funny. People should enjoy it while they can because that's not always the case. See the Bucks for the last 25 years, for example, if you want to understand how frustrating it can be to be a fan of a team where you would literally probably do a better job than the front office. I bet my salary that the Brewers' front office crushes every single one of us in decision-making over the last few years, even if a few of us have, by pure luck, occasionally out-guessed them on what they should have done in a situation.

 

And yet, outside of the first two months of last year, they've put together a totally craptastic offense. And to remedy the problem they replace a proven failed hitter (Sogard) with an equally proven failed hitter (Franklin) and replace him with an even worse proven failed hitter (Saladino). Don't get me wrong, I think Stearns has done a great job. But a lot of the moves made since the end of last year have been confusing to baffling.

[tmwiese55]

I know you've brought it up before on Villar being better as a rightie. The coach's clearly don't believe that and the scouting report views him as better as lefty. I know those stats you're using, but this is a case where the coach's clearly view him as better as a lefty and it's been that way since we've had him. It is what it is, he'll be looked to be platooned when a lefty pitches. Therefore you need a righty to pair with him.

 

Good point Jericho, of course overall they've done a great job since taking over as GM and this is nothing like the Bucks. But in these specific roster moves they've consistently failed and the offense has been really bad since May last year. And just because they're good overall doesn't mean they can't be wrong sometimes, see Oliver Drake and several other pitchers trotted out last year.

[bill hAll Star]

 

More or less what I've been saying, haha, glad we could sing kumbaya. And yea it's not like I'm some Orf proponent, basically all I know of him is what has been said by ya'll here and the numbers thrown out. Heck, even the guy brought up today I'd rather have than Franklin. I suppose partly because at least it's new to me. Though it seems he has had his chances already. But beyond that 'fandom' type view, he just seems better at IF D based on what ya'll say. Like you said, there has to be a better option sitting somewhere outside of the organization. But in the meantime, Villar vs righties and Perez vs lefities should just be ran out for a few weeks. Villar's last chance to sink or swim.

 

Villar is still better against LHP's for his career.

 

I don't think anybody really wanted Franklin or Sogard or Blanco over Orf this week. It's the negativity about the front office's decision-making and the complaining that rubbed several of us the wrong way. The idea that Orf is likely to be a little better than any of those guys is just not really supported by any objective evidence. The evidence actually supports the other 3 as being slightly more talented players, although Sogard and Blanco might be too far past their primes. It's already kind of annoying when fans complain about moves the team made, but when the front office is actually doing a great job and making the rational choice and people complain so adamantly, it's 10x more annoying.

 

People could be right or wrong about Orf, but on the whole the front office is so much better than any of us that's it not even funny. People should enjoy it while they can because that's not always the case. See the Bucks for the last 25 years, for example, if you want to understand how frustrating it can be to be a fan of a team where you would literally probably do a better job than the front office. I bet my salary that the Brewers' front office crushes every single one of us in decision-making over the last few years, even if a few of us have, by pure luck, occasionally out-guessed them on what they should have done in a situation.

 

And yet, outside of the first two months of last year, they've put together a totally craptastic offense. And to remedy the problem they replace a proven failed hitter (Sogard) with an equally proven failed hitter (Franklin) and replace him with an even worse proven failed hitter (Saladino). Don't get me wrong, I think Stearns has done a great job. But a lot of the moves made since the end of last year have been confusing to baffling.

 

The Sogard one can be criticized. Maybe they thought he turned some corner or after for whatever reason they didn't pursue Walker (who is struggling) more or they blew the timing of it not realizing he'd come so cheap, they went with Sogard, who I never believed in, but yeah, you can criticize that because you're going with a very low ceiling option as possibly your starting 2B.

 

Beyond that, that's baseball. They have a great prospect that they're not ready to call up for very understandable reasons in Hiura. Everyone is going to be stuck with proven failures as backup options if they don't have a great prospect waiting in the wings.

 

I randomly chose the Braves, for example:

 

If Albies goes down for the year, their options are:

 

Ryan Flaherty

Phil Gosselin

Christian Colon

Rio Ruiz

 

In AA, I don't have a strong read on these prospects, but I don't think they are studs by any means or are not currently ready to be one:

Luis Valenzuela

Travis Demeritte

Alay Lago

 

That entire list is probably going to give you Saladino/Franklin-type production. Flaherty is actually having a magical year as their utility/replacement guy, but he's a career .650 guy.

 

There are only probably 10 really good 2B in the league, maybe 20-30 serviceable ones like a later career Starlin Castro. And after that, you're going to be trotting out the Nick Franklins of the world unless you've got another stud waiting there that you want to promote potentially early.

 

You guys are somewhat right about the offense somehow not being right, but I also don't expect magic out of my GM. Again, going with Sogard might have sucked, but if anyone's starting 2B goes down, you're likely going to be starting a Saladino or Phil Gosselin. The only teams that can withstand this are maybe the Yankees or somebody like that that will just call Miami and buy Starlin Castro and not worry about the prospects they may have to give up.

[tmwiese55]

Good point, there really are no great options here. What's that phrase, 'pick the least worst option'. Which seems to me is clearly just playing Villar vs all righties, that takes care of 80% of games. Give it 3-4 weeks so there is a legit sample, re-assess.

[coolhandluke121]

They've done an absolutely fantastic job. The idea that they should be in a better position than they are just a few years after tearing it down and are still wisely making sure not to compromise their long-term, sustainable success is extremely unfair. Fans like that don't even deserve a good team. The alternatives people suggested to the moves they made were mostly terrible. The Brewers didn't want to make some short-sighted move like paying Cobb for 4 years or giving up a pick for Lynn or trading a bunch of top prospects for overpaid trash that will just be an albatross when the team should be peaking.

 

If they had done the types of moves people were calling for, they'd be no better off now and would be worse off in the future. The real reason they're not better is because you can't expect them not to have any bad players at this stage of their development after all the damage that was done during the Melvin era. You don't think other teams are competing for the same guys who might be better than what the Brewers have? You don't think most teams don't have their fair share of issues, especially if they're in a small market and are still rebuilding? It's actually amazing how many good players they have considering how few future assets they've given up. They're nearly in first place in a good division with lots of injuries and people think they're entitled to second-guess, as if they had better ideas. Most people's ideas included acquiring pitchers or guys like Walker who have been much worse than nearly anyone on the team now, relying on Braun to continue to be a solid regular, not signing Cain because you already had so many "good" outfielders, or trading Santana for someone good when that pretty clearly wasn't an option.

 

Blame guys like Santana and Braun and Villar, all of whom the Brewers seemed to know would have these issues but couldn't get rid of them or get meaningful upgrades because other teams know their short-comings too. They're the ones who are supposed to be doing better.

[MrTPlush]

How do we KNOW what Villar is? Just curious? One good year and then a bad one is all you need? Automatically the bad year forever? So if Arcia continues to struggle all year do we then know for sure he sucks?

 

I mean I thought for sure Jean Segura was a one year wonder (half year really) and that appeared to be wrong and he sucked way longer. How quick we want to write players off.

[Cool Hand Lucroy]

I certainly get the Villar frustration, but the Villar hate is hard to grasp. I would love to see the guy just start for like two weeks straight in the same spot in the order and see what happens. At the very least, give JV the dominant side of the platoon with Perez.

[rickh150]

I certainly get the Villar frustration, but the Villar hate is hard to grasp. I would love to see the guy just start for like two weeks straight in the same spot in the order and see what happens. At the very least, give JV the dominant side of the platoon with Perez.

 

Villar has been given more rope than anybody in the league. He was in the lead-off spot for most of 2017 even with bad numbers across the board. When Sogard heated up, they even found ways to even get his bat in the line-up in CF. He has been given many chances this year, as well. Whether in the field, on the bases, or at the plate..... he hasn't been the answer. Then again, there has been no answer in house, unless you count the .380 AAA 2B who apparently doesn't deserve a chance....

[SomewhereInTime]

I certainly get the Villar frustration, but the Villar hate is hard to grasp. I would love to see the guy just start for like two weeks straight in the same spot in the order and see what happens. At the very least, give JV the dominant side of the platoon with Perez.

 

My guess would be 16 strikeouts, 2 walks, and around 24 groundballs

[SomewhereInTime]

I certainly get the Villar frustration, but the Villar hate is hard to grasp. I would love to see the guy just start for like two weeks straight in the same spot in the order and see what happens. At the very least, give JV the dominant side of the platoon with Perez.

 

Villar has been given more rope than anybody in the league. He was in the lead-off spot for most of 2017 even with bad numbers across the board. When Sogard heated up, they even found ways to even get his bat in the line-up in CF. He has been given many chances this year, as well. Whether in the field, on the bases, or at the plate..... he hasn't been the answer. Then again, there has been no answer in house, unless you count the .380 AAA 2B who apparently doesn't deserve a chance....

 

I agree and I do think they should give Orf a chance, people seem to forget that Villar had three partial seasons before he was a Brewer where he didn't really hit, and his approach is just so much different at the plate today than it was in 2016.

 

I don't think Orf is going to be particularly good but its worth a shot to get some new guys up in Milwaukee.

[pacopete4]

How do we KNOW what Villar is? Just curious? One good year and then a bad one is all you need? Automatically the bad year forever? So if Arcia continues to struggle all year do we then know for sure he sucks?

 

I mean I thought for sure Jean Segura was a one year wonder (half year really) and that appeared to be wrong and he sucked way longer. How quick we want to write players off.

 

Perfectly stated. We jump to too many conclusions on players.

[tmwiese55]

How do we KNOW what Villar is? Just curious? One good year and then a bad one is all you need? Automatically the bad year forever? So if Arcia continues to struggle all year do we then know for sure he sucks?

 

I mean I thought for sure Jean Segura was a one year wonder (half year really) and that appeared to be wrong and he sucked way longer. How quick we want to write players off.

 

Perfectly stated. We jump to too many conclusions on players.

 

Agree. And remember at the end of last year he did get hot again for awhile. Then he kept getting benched again right around when he lost that game by messing up the fly ball in CF.

 

I posted it a few days ago, he's around 299/340 vs righties this year. Something like that, and not sure how much it's changed since that day. Eye test on it hasn't been good, I assume thing like hard hit % aren't great. But those results are fine, give him a few weeks of straight play. See if he sinks or swims.

[JohnBriggs12]

Perez is stepping up. Yeah he'll never be a walk machine but he puts the ball in play, is steady in the field, and will show occasional power.

[Outlander]

Yes, Perez is hot right now and will hopefuly keeps playing until he cools down.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I think CC needs to keep Perez in the lineup most days at 2b given that it appears Villar is relegated to the 25th roster spot the brewers like to waste...normally that's reserved for a player with a nagging injury, but right now the 25 man appears healthy since the injured are on the dl. Perez won't crater them offensively at 2nd if he's lower in the order and he's swinging a hot bat, especially compared to the production they've gotten from there to date. I can live with his obp issues if he's at least hitting the ball.

 

With saladino hopefully filling that utility IF role and rarely get starts at SS and 3b when arcia or shaw need an offday, these roles are much better than CC trying to get Sogard at bats as a starter 3-4 games a week.

 

All that said, I'm still flummoxed why villar is on the outs - would be good to get the full story from the manager at some point. Has to be something aside from on field performance, maybe it's the fact he appears to be "baseball stupid" with some of the in game decisions he makes with taking extra bases or steal attempts. Whether you like or dislike him as a player, his stats this season during sporadic playing time while also being shuffled around the order aren't terrible.

[coolhandluke121]

Can we close some other 2b threads and make this the main one? It seems we're discussing it in 4 different threads.

 

Perez is one my "favorite" (read: least hated) options at 2b and he still has a faint bit of upside if he just gets out of the bottom 10% in terms of patience, like Segura and Gomez did after some terrible struggles at the plate for a few years. But he's needed in other roles as well, so you still need a lot of pa's from one of the other options.

[Never Outhustled]

 

All that said, I'm still flummoxed why villar is on the outs - would be good to get the full story from the manager at some point. Has to be something aside from on field performance, maybe it's the fact he appears to be "baseball stupid" with some of the in game decisions he makes with taking extra bases or steal attempts. Whether you like or dislike him as a player, his stats this season during sporadic playing time while also being shuffled around the order aren't terrible.

 

It's on field performance. 635 OPS despite an unsustainable babip, and bad defense. He's not good.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Prior to the last two games, perez's ops was far, far below .635, so it's not just on-field performance keeping villar on the pine when the other options for 2b had worse numbers than him prior to his apparent benching. Unsustainable babip makes no sense to try and use as a reason based on 100 plate appearances, too.

 

Ultimately the brewers need to bring in a quality vet to improve 2b at the deadline if they are in good position in the standings. until then I just hope they luck into riding the hot hand moreso than not, whoever that ends up being.