2018-04-30: Brewers (Chacín) at Reds (Finnegan) 6:10 PM CDT [Brewers win, 6-5; historic night for Hader -- Save, 2.2 IP & 8 K!]

[Ennder]

Why Hader isn't the full time closer I'll never know.

 

Because that would be a complete waste of his talent. Why limit him to just the 9th inning against whatever part of the order happens to be up. If your best relief pitcher is your closer it better be because he can't do more than just 1 inning at a time.

[brewerswinNLcentral]

big unit 2.0.....like the robot pitcher from the old twilight zone in the early 60s

[TooLiveBrew]

Why Hader isn't the full time closer I'll never know.

 

Because that would be a complete waste of his talent. Why limit him to just the 9th inning against whatever part of the order happens to be up. If your best relief pitcher is your closer it better be because he can't do more than just 1 inning at a time.

Yeah, this game is perfect evidence of the value of not making your best RP a 'Closer'.

 

The fireman role is back to life in Milwaukee! Can I get an 'Amen'?! a 'Danny Plesac'?!

[TooLiveBrew]

First time since 1996 that a pitcher got a save with 8 K’s in the save (Randy Johnson), however he did it in 3 innings and Hader did it in 2.2. Hader is the first pitcher in MLB history to get an 8 K save in under 3 innings. And just like Randy Johnson (and Chris Sale), Hader should hopefully be converted from dominant reliever to dominant starter and the Brewers would be foolish not to try and do this.

 

Wow that's a quality stat, and I also totally agree with your final sentence there.

Saw another stat that said Hader is the first pitcher to record 8 outs in a game in which every out recorded was a strikeout

[Eye Black]

I cannot believe that everyone's reaction to this performance is just "Why isn't he in the rotation?!?!"

 

Hader is awesome at what he does and he's winning games at what he does. The lines between starter and reliever are becoming more and more blurred and will continue to be so. Hader himself believes this is the role he can best excel.

 

I cannot fathom why anyone who has watched Hader help us win games the way he has this year would think for a second that he's being "wasted".

I think this is spot on. Hader may actually be the mold for what the future holds for baseball’s elite relievers. The role he currently holds is arguably more valuable than an every 5th day starter role.

[FVBrewerFan]

Although I've never said Hader is being wasted in this role, I have always said he should be starting. I'm not above admitting I was wrong, and Hader is convincing me I probably am.

 

Imagine being able to pitch Hader in every playoff game instead of one or two each series.

[Ennder]

Chris Sale started in the bullpen but as soon as he developed a change up he moved into the rotation. If Hader can do the same he most certainly should go to the rotation. The thing is this season at least he has more or less completely dropped his change up and is just fastball/slider. Very few starting pitchers last with just that mix. He either has to develop a 3rd pitch or this is his role long term, one or the other.

[TJH123]

Hader didn’t pitch in the Cubs series, so he’s pitched in 1 of the last 5 games, the same amount he would have had he been a starter. If he was a starter he would probably be pitching 5-6 innings every 5 days compared to the 3-4 he’s currently pitching every 5 games, isn’t that more valuable? I get that he’s valuable in a role where he can close out games but I feel he’d more valuable as a starter pitching even more innings than he is with another lights out reliever closing games. The White Sox realized this with Chris Sale, and hopefully the Brewers realize this. I thought Randy Johnson was also another case of a lights out reliever converted to starter but he was a starter his whole career outside of a few outlying relief appearances. My guess is the only reason Hader hasn’t been made a starter is because he hasn’t developed a reliable changeup yet as a third pitch, but once he does the Brewers would be foolish not to make him a starter imo. If he isn’t successful as a starter then by all means convert him back to a reliever. A lot of people point to Andrew Miller as a reliever comparison but the only reason Andrew Miller is a lights out reliever is because he failed as a starter early in his career. Had he been successful he would still be starting.

[TJH123]

Chris Sale started in the bullpen but as soon as he developed a change up he moved into the rotation. If Hader can do the same he most certainly should go to the rotation. The thing is this season at least he has more or less completely dropped his change up and is just fastball/slider. Very few starting pitchers last with just that mix. He either has to develop a 3rd pitch or this is his role long term, one or the other.

 

I have seen him use it a few times this year, and I remember one time he got a strikeout this year with a changeup

[TJH123]

Here’s another stat, Hader is the first pitcher in MLB history to post a K/9 over 18 for an entire month (15 innings or more). Hader had a K/9 of 19.5

[adambr2]

I cannot believe that everyone's reaction to this performance is just "Why isn't he in the rotation?!?!"

 

Hader is awesome at what he does and he's winning games at what he does. The lines between starter and reliever are becoming more and more blurred and will continue to be so. Hader himself believes this is the role he can best excel.

 

I cannot fathom why anyone who has watched Hader help us win games the way he has this year would think for a second that he's being "wasted".

I think this is spot on. Hader may actually be the mold for what the future holds for baseball’s elite relievers. The role he currently holds is arguably more valuable than an every 5th day starter role.

 

I totally agree. I believe at one time, in another ERA, when relievers weren't as specialized, when starters went their 200+ innings and relievers went an inning at most unless you were a long man, Josh Hader would have been much more valuable as a starter.

 

I believe that has changed, and I don't believe that modern traditional and sabermetrical stats have completely caught up yet in a way to really be able to evaluate what Hader brings to this pen and how much he improves the rest of the pen just by reducing everyone else's role.

 

Here's an old school stat, the Brewers are 11-0 in games that they use Josh Hader. 11, and 0. And he's obviously only being used in crucial, tight games, not blowouts. So what do you imagine our record is in those 11 games if he's not pitching in them?

[Ennder]

Chris Sale started in the bullpen but as soon as he developed a change up he moved into the rotation. If Hader can do the same he most certainly should go to the rotation. The thing is this season at least he has more or less completely dropped his change up and is just fastball/slider. Very few starting pitchers last with just that mix. He either has to develop a 3rd pitch or this is his role long term, one or the other.

 

I have seen him use it a few times this year, and I remember one time he got a strikeout this year with a changeup

 

Last year he threw his change up a little over 7% of the time. So far this year (not including tonight) he has only thrown it a little over 1% of the time.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I think this is spot on. Hader may actually be the mold for what the future holds for baseball’s elite relievers. The role he currently holds is arguably more valuable than an every 5th day starter role.

 

 

Hasn't Andrew Miller already been doing this for the past few years? Coming in whenever the game situation calls for the "Best" reliever, and shutting down the opposing team's offense?

 

I'm not taking anything away from CC or Hader, but I don't think this idea originated here.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Hader didn’t pitch in the Cubs series, so he’s pitched in 1 of the last 5 games, the same amount he would have had he been a starter. If he was a starter he would probably be pitching 5-6 innings every 5 days compared to the 3-4 he’s currently pitching every 5 games, isn’t that more valuable?

 

not really when considering the 3-5 innings Hader's giving the Brewers are occurring over multiple games during that same time frame, and the outs he gets are always closer to the final outs needed to win close games. Having an eraser like Hader in the pen gives Counsell the continued quick hook option for starters without worrying about bullpen burnout. Imagine what this pen looks like after adding a healthy Knebel? Heck, I wouldn't even force him back into the 9th inning closer role - just continue with giving good relievers opportunities to get more than 3 outs and keep guys fresh. If a guy like Hader or Jeffress or Knebel comes in the 8th and is rolling, bring him out for the 9th.

[NYChez]

Hader could have three 9-inning perfect games in Chicago, and the Brewers could have still lost all three. Credit to Counsell for saving him to be available for a mega-outing.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I want him in the role he's in but would like to see him a start a game and go for the K record.

[Eye Black]

I think this is spot on. Hader may actually be the mold for what the future holds for baseball’s elite relievers. The role he currently holds is arguably more valuable than an every 5th day starter role.

Hasn't Andrew Miller already been doing this for the past few years? Coming in whenever the game situation calls for the "Best" reliever, and shutting down the opposing team's offense?

 

I'm not taking anything away from CC or Hader, but I don't think this idea originated here.

I know that is a popular comparison, but my answer would be not exactly. Hader is pitching across multiple innings and shortening the close games he pitches in significantly. Since he started relieving regularly in 2012, Andrew Miller has never pitched 3.0 innings of relief in a single game (Hader has done it 3 times already), and Miller actually has less total 2.0 IP+ relief appearances since becoming a full time reliever than Josh Hader has since his MLB debut last June. Below is the number of times each has pitched ≥ 2.0 IP.

 

Josh Hader (appearances w/ 2.0 IP or more)

2017: 10 of 35

2018: 6 of 11

 

Andrew Miller (appearances w/ 2.0 IP or more)

2012: 0 of 53

2013: 0 of 38

2014: 2 of 73

2015: 4 of 60

2016: 4 of 70

2017: 5 of 57

2018: 0 of 11

 

Hader has pitched ≥ 2.0 IP in 16 of his 46 career relief appearances (35% of the time). Miller has pitched 6 outs or more just 15 times in 362 appearances (4% of the time).

 

So my answer would be that you are correct that the idea of bringing in a reliever regardless of the inning to face the heart of the opposing team’s lineup isn’t a novel concept, but I do think allowing that high leverage shutdown reliever to pitch multiple innings regularly is something more unique to Josh Hader’s current usage.

[cnycerveceros]

If Arcia could hit .250....