Derek Johnson vs Darnell Coles

[brewers888]

Just wanted to start this topic of conversation regarding our exceptional pitching coach and our less than stellar hitting coach. Derek Johnson has gotten everything we could have asked for and more out of this pitching staff. The starting rotation which was supposedly the biggest weakness for this team has done pretty much as good a job as possible considering we don't exactly have overwhelming talent. On the other hand the offense has not been good ever since Coles became the hitting coach. I don't think we have ever been in the top 20 in MLB in runs scored since he was hired.

 

Countless pitchers such as Chase Anderson, Jimmy Nelson, and Zach Davies have all improved tremendously under our pitching coach while most of the lineup has regressed under Coles. Seriously has any player in this lineup improved from year to year under this coach.

 

Its time for Coles to be replaced and whatever coach or coaches that are responsible for fundamentals like fielding and baserunning need to go as well. Derek Johnson has shown what excellent coaching can do for a team and its time we had others that approached his level of excellence.

[brewers888]

Orlando Arcia is a great example of a player that could use better coaching. Orlando always looks off balanced at the plate and that is something that could be corrected with time in the cage if we had a top notch hitting coach.

[JohnBriggs12]

Orlando Arcia is a great example of a player that could use better coaching. Orlando always looks off balanced at the plate and that is something that could be corrected with time in the cage if we had a top notch hitting coach.

 

Arcia should be a star by now. His offense is holding him back and that may be on Coles. On the other hand, Coles doesn't make out the lineup and why a manager would sit Aguilar with Thames on the DL is beyond me.

[jerichoholicninja]

As is usually said when this comes up, I doubt Coles has any affect on the hitters good or bad. Braun is going to do his thing, regardless of who the coach is. Same with basically every veteran like Cain and Yelich. No one is going to get Santana to make more contact, other than Domingo deciding to change his approach. Villar is a total dunce in all phases of the game, no one's going to fix him. The only thing I can fault Coles for is Arcia. He looks like a pitcher at the plate sometimes, totally lost with little idea of how to swing a bat. And he's been that way since he was called up. For all we know, though, they might be working on things with him all the time and it doesn't stick or he totally ignores it.

 

I do find it interesting that pitching coaches can actually get players to change their game. You hear it all the time from the Brewers pitchers that DJ wants them pitching up in the zone and they do it. Certainly, very few of these guys have ever been told to throw the ball up before but yet they're doing it now. On the other hand, rarely do you see hitters make any sort of adjustment to their game other than minor batting stance changes. Even the players that have been on the leading edge of the "launch angle" revolution made their swing changes on their own and worked with their own personal coaches, not team personnel.

[adambr2]

Someone once told me that a pitching coach can make a ton of difference and a hitting coach makes very little. Don't know how much truth there is to that.

 

Still ready for Coles to go regardless.

[brewcrewdue80]

Id expect a hitting coach to be watching video of upcoming starters vigorously. And pass down hitting strategy vs that pitcher and tendencies. So Coles is failing, as a .245 hitter often does. He should been gone long ago.

[jerichoholicninja]

Id expect a hitting coach to be watching video of upcoming starters vigorously. And pass down hitting strategy vs that pitcher and tendencies. So Coles is failing, as a .245 hitter often does. He should been gone long ago.

 

Can we stop using a coaches stats as a player to judge him as a coach? Because Coles accomplished miles more as a professional player than Johnson ever did.

[chuckiehacks]

Id expect a hitting coach to be watching video of upcoming starters vigorously. And pass down hitting strategy vs that pitcher and tendencies. So Coles is failing, as a .245 hitter often does. He should been gone long ago.

 

Can we stop using a coaches stats as a player to judge him as a coach? Because Coles accomplished miles more as a professional player than Johnson ever did.

 

And Rod Carew might have been the worst hitting coach the Brewers ever had.

[brewcrewdue80]

Id expect a hitting coach to be watching video of upcoming starters vigorously. And pass down hitting strategy vs that pitcher and tendencies. So Coles is failing, as a .245 hitter often does. He should been gone long ago.

 

Can we stop using a coaches stats as a player to judge him as a coach? Because Coles accomplished miles more as a professional player than Johnson ever did.

 

Not a chance, when the team bats .233 with the amount of young talent to have turned as a rising avg, and instead are stuck below expectations? You have to question whether their batting history and approach is being used for the approach taken by these young players. .245/.307 .233/.304 this season MLB avg .255/.324

 

Last season .249/.322 MLB avg .255/324

2016 .244/.322 MLB avg .255/.321

2015 .251/.307 MLB avg .254/.317

 

Below MLB average every year the last 4 years. And it's even worse this season thus far with 2 additions exceeding the average who didn't play for him last season.

 

One guy is getting results. The other is not and hasn't the entire time he's been here. It's long overdue for fresh voice to these young hitters. Better approaches at the plate during situations within the game. Solo HR swings down 3runs isn't working surprisingly.

[tmwiese55]

I brought this up a few weeks ago. Though it's probably a minimal difference (as pointed out already) if something doesn't improve soon it wouldn't surprise me if they shake it up. Basically, you don't have much to lose. Get a new set of eyes, new voice. Maybe it provides a spark of some kind.

[JohnBriggs12]

Someone once told me that a pitching coach can make a ton of difference and a hitting coach makes very little. Don't know how much truth there is to that.

 

Still ready for Coles to go regardless.

 

 

There's a lot of truth to that. Hitters do what got them to the big leagues, and often ignore the pitching coach. But sometimes the entire team needs to be sent a message and firing a popular hitting coach is one way to send one. The failure to see progress in Arcia might be the single most damning aspect. Arcia got hot last May, so maybe he turns it around now that the weather has warmed. If not, Coles has to go.

[jerichoholicninja]

Id expect a hitting coach to be watching video of upcoming starters vigorously. And pass down hitting strategy vs that pitcher and tendencies. So Coles is failing, as a .245 hitter often does. He should been gone long ago.

 

Can we stop using a coaches stats as a player to judge him as a coach? Because Coles accomplished miles more as a professional player than Johnson ever did.

 

Not a chance, when the team bats .233 with the amount of young talent to have turned as a rising avg, and instead are stuck below expectations? You have to question whether their batting history and approach is being used for the approach taken by these young players. .245/.307 .233/.304 this season MLB avg .255/.324

 

Last season .249/.322 MLB avg .255/324

2016 .244/.322 MLB avg .255/.321

2015 .251/.307 MLB avg .254/.317

 

Below MLB average every year the last 4 years. And it's even worse this season thus far with 2 additions exceeding the average who didn't play for him last season.

 

One guy is getting results. The other is not and hasn't the entire time he's been here. It's long overdue for fresh voice to these young hitters. Better approaches at the plate during situations within the game. Solo HR swings down 3runs isn't working surprisingly.

 

Well, ya, obviously the offense hasn't been great for a couple years but that has absolutely nothing to do with how good Darnell Coles was as a player. And it's totally irrelevant to bring up in any discussion of how effective he is as a coach.

[pacopete4]

Coles might be a lousy MLB hitting coach but it isn't because of what he did as a player. That is a pretty foolish way to judge how good a coach someone is or will be.

[Baldkin]

Ted Williams was an absolutely horrible hitting coach.

 

While hitting coaches might not change the way a player swings or his abilities at the plate, what they can do is change a players approach.

 

Right now, the Brewers are exactly average on how often they swing at the first pitch -- uncannily exactly matching MLB's 27.8% of PA's where they swung at the first pitch.

 

The problem is, the Brewers during those PA's, have a .616 OPS, a 74 OPS+ compared to the MLB average (.711) in those situations.

 

So, the Brewers first pitch swinging approach needs to change. "Only swing if you can drive the pitch" should be the mantra.

 

The Brewers have a .782 OPS when they swing at the first pitch and put it into play. The MLB Average is .871.

[wildcat83]

You don’t fire a coach without having a replacement. How many really good hitting coaches are unemployed right now?

[brewcrewdue80]

Not a chance, when the team bats .233 with the amount of young talent to have turned as a rising avg, and instead are stuck below expectations? You have to question whether their batting history and approach is being used for the approach taken by these young players. .245/.307 .233/.304 this season MLB avg .255/.324

 

Last season .249/.322 MLB avg .255/324

2016 .244/.322 MLB avg .255/.321

2015 .251/.307 MLB avg .254/.317

 

Below MLB average every year the last 4 years. And it's even worse this season thus far with 2 additions exceeding the average who didn't play for him last season.

 

One guy is getting results. The other is not and hasn't the entire time he's been here. It's long overdue for fresh voice to these young hitters. Better approaches at the plate during situations within the game. Solo HR swings down 3runs isn't working surprisingly.

 

Well, ya, obviously the offense hasn't been great for a couple years but that has absolutely nothing to do with how good Darnell Coles was as a player. And it's totally irrelevant to bring up in any discussion of how effective he is as a coach.

 

I give his batting career consideration to the same results this team is producing. Low avg, low OB. He's the one talking to these guys to improve, or as said prepare for upcoming starters and how to approach ABs, DSituations, etc. Santana, Villar, Arcia continue having poor ABs over and over. The bottom 4 batting are albatrosses. He's not getting improvement from the hitters who arent above average talents. Serious long slumps.

 

Wildcat-

AAA/AA just promote within. Interim. And find a coach over the next year to fill.

[pacopete4]

 

Wildcat-

AAA/AA just promote within. Interim. And find a coach over the next year to fill.

\

 

I am available starting at the end of May. I'd whip Arcia right into shape.

[Jopal78]

When exactly have the Brewers ever been a well-coached club? It seems over the last 25+ seasons, generations of Brewer players have consistently been throwing to the wrong base, missing the cut off man, swinging through the pitch on a hit and run, failing to execute a sacrifice fly, failing to get the bunt down no matter who the particular coach was at the time. More probably true than not, most players believe they got to where they are at on the basis of their own ability, and therefore it is likely that their willingness to listen to coaching is somewhat limited.

 

Obviously Derek Johnson has some ideas that certain members of the staff have bought into like throwing more fastballs up, and throwing the cutter, etc. The pitching staff's success however, is most likely related to an underestimation of the talent and potential of its members.

[jerichoholicninja]

Not a chance, when the team bats .233 with the amount of young talent to have turned as a rising avg, and instead are stuck below expectations? You have to question whether their batting history and approach is being used for the approach taken by these young players. .245/.307 .233/.304 this season MLB avg .255/.324

 

Last season .249/.322 MLB avg .255/324

2016 .244/.322 MLB avg .255/.321

2015 .251/.307 MLB avg .254/.317

 

Below MLB average every year the last 4 years. And it's even worse this season thus far with 2 additions exceeding the average who didn't play for him last season.

 

One guy is getting results. The other is not and hasn't the entire time he's been here. It's long overdue for fresh voice to these young hitters. Better approaches at the plate during situations within the game. Solo HR swings down 3runs isn't working surprisingly.

 

Well, ya, obviously the offense hasn't been great for a couple years but that has absolutely nothing to do with how good Darnell Coles was as a player. And it's totally irrelevant to bring up in any discussion of how effective he is as a coach.

 

I give his batting career consideration to the same results this team is producing. Low avg, low OB. He's the one talking to these guys to improve, or as said prepare for upcoming starters and how to approach ABs, DSituations, etc. Santana, Villar, Arcia continue having poor ABs over and over. The bottom 4 batting are albatrosses. He's not getting improvement from the hitters who arent above average talents. Serious long slumps.

 

Wildcat-

AAA/AA just promote within. Interim. And find a coach over the next year to fill.

 

And has been stated many times, Derek Johnson has thrown zero professional pitches in his life.

 

Just took a quick look at the two top teams by OPS and the kind of career their hitting coaches had:

 

Yankees:

Marcus Thames - .246/.309/.485 over 10 seasons

PJ Pilittere - 0 MLB PA's

 

Red Sox:

Tim Hyers - .217/.298/.287 over 260 PA's

Andy Barkett - .304/.373/.413 over 51PA's

[tmwiese55]

Dave Duncan was a catcher and Leo Mazzone never made it out of the minors. Looking at their playing careers is just an absurd way to judge someone's coaching ability.

[reillymcshane]

Derek Johnson vs Darnell Coles?

 

I'm putting my money on Coles in this fight.

 

Coles is a former player - 14 years in the big leagues. He was a 20 HR guy - gotta be pretty strong. Not a huge guy in his day - but big enough (6' 1"). He still looks pretty lean and fit, even at 55.

 

Johnson is eight years younger, but he didn't play pro ball and doesn't appear to be in that good of shape - especially not compared to Coles. He's got some bulk to him, but I'm guessing Coles is a lot quicker and stronger.

 

In the end, Johnson appears as if he could absorb some damage, but Coles has the look of a guy who could avoid getting hit - and hit back pretty hard.

 

Coles wins in a KO.

[adambr2]

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/20474/baseball-therapy-what-is-a-good-hitting-coach-worth/

 

This article is a bit dated, but still a relevant study into the value of a hitting coach. Their conclusions were more drastic than you'd think, but they determined that like a pitching coach, a good hitting coach can be worth a great deal, in the 4 win type area.