Tyler Saladino a Brewer [7/5 -- back from injury & in the starting lineup]

[tmwiese55]

I don't think I have anywhere specifically been pushing for Orf other than that he technically qualifies as "anyone else" in the AAA level of baseball, yet this is being made out like I'm some Orf fanboy. I have no opinion on the guy. But yes, I would try him over Sorgard if somehow you find nothing else if we're talking baseball specific reasons. But as noted, Sogard is being paid already and bringing up another guy and paying him MLB will cost them another like 500Kish so chances are they both suck and they're saving 500K by keeping with Sogard's sucking.

 

I'm also all for getting out of CS by any means possible.

[tmwiese55]

It's funny to me that Hager and Moore would likely produce better results than Orf at the MLB level, but that's the only name most people throw out there all season.

 

Hager, for example, hit .892 in Biloxi before being promoted recently, and he doesn't strikeout a ton. And he's 25. And even at that, he isn't all that intriguing to me, but certainly moreso that Orf.

 

There ya go. You guys are way more knowledgeable on minor leaguers than me. Guys like that in our system, guys in other that won't get a chance etc.

[bill hAll Star]

I don't think I have anywhere specifically been pushing for Orf other than that he technically qualifies as "anyone else" in the AAA level of baseball, yet this is being made out like I'm some Orf fanboy. I have no opinion on the guy. But yes, I would try him over Sorgard if somehow you find nothing else if we're talking baseball specific reasons. But as noted, Sogard is being paid already and bringing up another guy and paying him MLB will cost them another like 500Kish so chances are they both suck and they're saving 500K by keeping with Sogard's sucking.

 

I'm also all for getting out of CS by any means possible.

 

Sogard hit .330/.420/.500 in CS last year.

 

All I’m saying while you may not be throwing full support behind Orf is that you cannot seem to comprehend that even if Sogard is not hitting well this year and Orf is hitting well in CS, it is still more likely that Sogard is a better, more productive player if in theory they were both allowed 300 ABs from now until the end of 2018 in the majors.

[bill hAll Star]

It's funny to me that Hager and Moore would likely produce better results than Orf at the MLB level, but that's the only name most people throw out there all season.

 

Hager, for example, hit .892 in Biloxi before being promoted recently, and he doesn't strikeout a ton. And he's 25. And even at that, he isn't all that intriguing to me, but certainly moreso that Orf.

 

There ya go. You guys are way more knowledgeable on minor leaguers than me. Guys like that in our system, guys in other that won't get a chance etc.

 

I’d give those guys a chance, sure.

 

But we’ve gone with Franklin, Saladino, Miller, picked up Andres Blanco, and have 3 other guys on the roster. The fact that you think we aren’t trying other options is what is puzzling.

 

Hager may get his chance someday but there’s a reason he’s in AA at age 25. It’s the backup quarterback theory. They’re always a better option because they’ve never had a chance to suck on the field.

[tmwiese55]

"Regarding not acknowledging that Sogard could do better"-----No I'd acknowledge that is possible, none of this exact. But if I had to guess I don't think Sogard will bat above .200, so that's easy to beat. Sogard clearly isn't what he was when he came up, he lost it when he got hurt last year. He was in a groove when he came up initially and rode it out. You'd just be hoping to do the same with whoever you brought up now, like Saladino, until it likely crashes down like it has for Sogard because none of these guys are really any good. Sure, maybe Sogard can hit .250 rest of the year but it sure as heck doesn't look like he can hit above .200 right now and I think he sucked when he was in AAA this year for a couple weeks. Sorry, I just think he's done plus he's mediocre at best on D. I'd be fine with D first guy who you expect to hit .220 over him right now. As much as this comes off as bashing management, they have brought in two guys to address the problem so I think they generally agree with what I'm getting at. Just got unlucky with one getting hurt and the 2nd just got here. We'll see where it goes from here.

[tmwiese55]

It's funny to me that Hager and Moore would likely produce better results than Orf at the MLB level, but that's the only name most people throw out there all season.

 

Hager, for example, hit .892 in Biloxi before being promoted recently, and he doesn't strikeout a ton. And he's 25. And even at that, he isn't all that intriguing to me, but certainly moreso that Orf.

 

There ya go. You guys are way more knowledgeable on minor leaguers than me. Guys like that in our system, guys in other that won't get a chance etc.

 

I’d give those guys a chance, sure.

 

But we’ve gone with Franklin, Saladino, Miller, picked up Andres Blanco, and have 3 other guys on the roster. The fact that you think we aren’t trying other options is what is puzzling.

 

Hager may get his chance someday but there’s a reason he’s in AA at age 25. It’s the backup quarterback theory. They’re always a better option because they’ve never had a chance to suck on the field.

 

No, I said exactly that. they've brought in 2 already. They probably just don't want to spend more assets on it a 3rd time, I get it, but I think if we miss the playoffs or division by 1-2 games and look back and see Sogard got 350 PAs I think we're probably gonna be wondering what could have been. Personally I'd have pulled the plug weeks ago, there is no way you can't find a better option than what seems like the worst player in MLB. Once Saladino is back and assume they put Arcia down to get ABs consistently and they still have Sogard here he just better not be playing. If he's your 25th man, whatever, but don't force him out there starting 2-3 times a week like they've been doing.

[pacopete4]

At least Kyle Wren is gone so we can stop hearing about him.

[tmwiese55]

Hey I just hope ya'll were also saying that Drake and Logan should still be here.

 

I'm just very surprised folks are adamantly arguing that we can't upgrade the worst player in MLB, and acting like I'm being crazy in my take for saying we should try. IDK, maybe some were taking it as too much of an Orf vs Sogard specific thing which isn't what i mean at all. Again, I get if they don't want to get a 3rd guy. I'd have done it weeks ago but I see it, they're just trying to survive a couple weeks more and then re-assess.

[bill hAll Star]

Hey I just hope ya'll were also saying that Drake and Logan should still be here.

 

I'm just very surprised folks are adamantly arguing that we can't upgrade the worst player in MLB, and acting like I'm being crazy in my take for saying we should try. IDK, maybe some were taking it as too much of an Orf vs Sogard specific thing which isn't what i mean at all. Again, I get if they don't want to get a 3rd guy. I'd have done it weeks ago but I see it, they're just trying to survive a couple weeks more and then re-assess.

 

They had better options behind those guys (Drake and Logan). MLB caliber guys.

 

They probably do/did behind Sogard but injuries and Arcia playing like crap have kept him hanging on to a bottom roster spot for dear life.

[rickh150]

What I've learned on this thread...

 

When in doubt, pretend you know what you are talking about by standing by your man, Stearns. Give a good case for why Stearns did what he did and tear down others possible solutions to the issue.

 

AAA is where bad baseball players are sent with little hope for the majors, duh. I always thought this was where many MLB bench players, retreads, and veterans were sent to be a jump away from the bigs, if need be, to fill a gap.

 

Sogard and Orf are really bad- Sogard because of this year's stats... Orf DESPITE them. Yet, if Orf was brought up to be a backup infielder in May, no one talks about how Orf shouldn't get a shot. Stearn's men here would logically say that if Stearns likes him and his advanced metrics are good, he must be legit. The same people logically say now that since he was skipped over the last 6 weeks by AA guys, a traded player, and awful Sogard, he must be bad and some AAA players are gap fillers with no hopes of the bigs.

 

There is a huge gap between utility players.

[PeaveyFury]

What I've learned on this thread...

 

When in doubt, pretend you know what you are talking about by standing by your man, Stearns.

 

I'm going to stop this line of conversation right here. I re-read the thread, and everyone on both sides has continually posted using rationale for their point of view. Now, you can certainly disagree with the rationale, but calling anyone's viewpoints the equivalent of 'blind loyalty' is inflammatory and unnecessary.

 

Feel free to continue the discussion of the topic at hand, but don't make it personal.

[YelichPosse]

Miller had a hit and 2 walks last night. That is more times on base than SS has produced in about a week it seems. And did not make an error. Problem solved. LOL

[Lathund]

With a .173 BABIP while having career high line drive % and hard Contact %, Sogard isn't as bad as his stat line so far suggests. Even with a normalized BABIP he's still not good (You'd expect something a bit better than his career average but below last year), but it'd be the kind of production that could justify the 25th spot on a roster for a fairly versatile LHB who gets on base at an above-average rate. So it's not about what he's done so far, but about what you can reasonably expect going forward.

 

But it's also about 40-man roster management. Those spots will be valuable this offseason for rule 5 protection. If Sogard's days are numbered (Which I Believe they are) then you have to look at the cost of a temporary promotion of Moore/Hager/Orf/whoever else needs to be added to the 40-man. Whoever gets called up there likely goes back down when Saladino is back, or if Santana starts raking, or an 8th reliever is needed. And if they have any kind of success, they'll need to stay on the 40-man if we want to keep them for the future. That's a 40-man spot that then can't be used on a Corbin Burnes or Keston Hiura down the stretch. Or on a rule 5-eligible player in the offseason. So keeping Sogard until Saladino is back might be the better long term move. Consider also the impact that even a big improvement on Sogard has. Adding even 200-300 OPS matters very little if you're getting <10 PAs per week worth of that.

[djoctagone]

tyler saladino is expected to start a minor league rehab assignment towards the end of this week. craig counsell expects the rehab to last 5-7 days.

[clancyphile]

With a .173 BABIP while having career high line drive % and hard Contact %, Sogard isn't as bad as his stat line so far suggests. Even with a normalized BABIP he's still not good (You'd expect something a bit better than his career average but below last year), but it'd be the kind of production that could justify the 25th spot on a roster for a fairly versatile LHB who gets on base at an above-average rate. So it's not about what he's done so far, but about what you can reasonably expect going forward.

 

But it's also about 40-man roster management. Those spots will be valuable this offseason for rule 5 protection. If Sogard's days are numbered (Which I Believe they are) then you have to look at the cost of a temporary promotion of Moore/Hager/Orf/whoever else needs to be added to the 40-man. Whoever gets called up there likely goes back down when Saladino is back, or if Santana starts raking, or an 8th reliever is needed. And if they have any kind of success, they'll need to stay on the 40-man if we want to keep them for the future. That's a 40-man spot that then can't be used on a Corbin Burnes or Keston Hiura down the stretch. Or on a rule 5-eligible player in the offseason. So keeping Sogard until Saladino is back might be the better long term move. Consider also the impact that even a big improvement on Sogard has. Adding even 200-300 OPS matters very little if you're getting <10 PAs per week worth of that.

 

Sogard's problem is more bad luck than bad play.

 

Braun's had a similar problem this year.

 

At this point, it makes no sense to make a 40-man move, other than to add Hiura and bring him up. Some hard decisions may come then, but for now, the hope is for Sogard to rebound and get luckier.

[Brewer Fever]

So much anger and angst against a front office that has delivered a team none of us expected going back just 15 months ago. The way some of you complain, one would think the team was in last place in a season where the Brewers were the preseason favorites to win the pennant. And now there's such a thing as being a "Stearns man". Who the heck here isn't a "Stearns man"? And second, what the heck is wrong with you?

[pacopete4]

So much anger and angst against a front office that has delivered a team none of us expected going back just 15 months ago. The way some of you complain, one would think the team was in last place in a season where the Brewers were the preseason favorites to win the pennant. And now there's such a thing as being a "Stearns man". Who the heck here isn't a "Stearns man"? And second, what the heck is wrong with you?

 

This is the silly stuff that causes fights. Yeah, everyone gets it. The Brewers are playing great baseball. Stearns has done one heck of a job (along with Melvin) on creating winning baseball with this organization. That doesn’t take away discussion on what could possibly make them better. It’s a discussion board. There can be people on both sides of this.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

So much anger and angst against a front office that has delivered a team none of us expected going back just 15 months ago. The way some of you complain, one would think the team was in last place in a season where the Brewers were the preseason favorites to win the pennant. And now there's such a thing as being a "Stearns man". Who the heck here isn't a "Stearns man"? And second, what the heck is wrong with you?

 

This is the silly stuff that causes fights. Yeah, everyone gets it. The Brewers are playing great baseball. Stearns has done one heck of a job (along with Melvin) on creating winning baseball with this organization. That doesn’t take away discussion on what could possibly make them better. It’s a discussion board. There can be people on both sides of this.

 

I think winning actually increases the scrutiny, as a lot of people are starting to see the team as a near-contender, if not already at that level. It's a fun position to be in. I guarantee that fan message boards for perennial title contenders like the Astros, Yankees, Cardinals and Dodgers have the same sort of arguments and drama. Just because you have a winning team, it doesn't mean that the work is done, and that every player move (or non-move) is flowers and glitter.

[Brewer Fever]

I'm not at all saying that every move should be praised. I personally hate the fact that Keon Broxton is back on this team even though he hasn't improved his K rate one bit. Some here are taking criticism too far. It can't be stressed enough how foolish it is to be over the top critical without a full plate of info. And the notion of someone being a "Stearns man" is ridiculous. To anyone who isn't a "Stearns man", who the heck do you want as GM instead?

[rickh150]

Orf has a .663 OPS on the road and a .250 average.

 

Maaaaaaybe that’s a big reason he’s not given an opportunity.

 

 

What was it at the end of a May?

[bill hAll Star]

Orf has a .663 OPS on the road and a .250 average.

 

Maaaaaaybe that’s a big reason he’s not given an opportunity.

 

 

What was it at the end of a May?

 

It doesn't really matter. The point is that on the whole, Orf's entire "he hits so well in AAA" description has to do with the fact that he essentially plays half of his games on the moon. The rest of the PCL is actually great for hitters but he has only done OK with that.

 

It's the same reason that there are various guys that put up borderline All Star numbers for the Rockies that I would be barely interested in in a trade. You can't trust the numbers unless they're by a truly good hitter that can hit outside of that environment as well.

[rickh150]

So much anger and angst against a front office that has delivered a team none of us expected going back just 15 months ago. The way some of you complain, one would think the team was in last place in a season where the Brewers were the preseason favorites to win the pennant. And now there's such a thing as being a "Stearns man". Who the heck here isn't a "Stearns man"? And second, what the heck is wrong with you?

 

Easy, man. So much anger and angst, you say.

I like Stearns. What Brewers fan wouldn't? I am not agreeing with his every little move, though, and I don't appreciate the argument of just trust the GM. Come up with something better than that. We all trust in this guy, big picture of course, but we can question moves. Isn't that what Brewerfan is about? Discussing many of the moves made in Game and out?

Can I think Sogard is better than he is showing? For wanting our hottest hitting middle IF at AAA to get a shot with the team when Franklin, then Saladino were called up?

[rickh150]

What was it at the end of a May?

 

It doesn't really matter. The point is that on the whole, Orf's entire "he hits so well in AAA" description has to do with the fact that he essentially plays half of his games on the moon. The rest of the PCL is actually great for hitters but he has only done OK with that.

 

It's the same reason that there are various guys that put up borderline All Star numbers for the Rockies that I would be barely interested in in a trade. You can't trust the numbers unless they're by a truly good hitter that can hit outside of that environment as well.

 

If you are right, he needs to get out of AAA. They are wasting a spot.

[rickh150]

What I've learned on this thread...

 

When in doubt, pretend you know what you are talking about by standing by your man, Stearns.

 

I'm going to stop this line of conversation right here. I re-read the thread, and everyone on both sides has continually posted using rationale for their point of view. Now, you can certainly disagree with the rationale, but calling anyone's viewpoints the equivalent of 'blind loyalty' is inflammatory and unnecessary.

 

Feel free to continue the discussion of the topic at hand, but don't make it personal.

 

This part is personal? Seems extremely vague.... didn't acknowledge anyone personally. Questioning one's viewpoint... happening here constantly. One guy recently asked what was wrong with me? Now That seems personal. Others have made me out to be stupid or even racist because I prefer Sogard (for now) to other of our current middle infielders.

 

If Jonny17 defends a player move by simply saying it is the right move because DS made it, nothing else, that is what I don't agree with. He has the right to say it, sure. I have the right to say say his reasoning is empty. I have a legit viewpoint that I can share, not mean spirited, just fairly honest on how I view one's response, not the person's integrity.

[bill hAll Star]

If you are right, he needs to get out of AAA. They are wasting a spot.

 

He may eventually get cut like Wren.

 

The progression from rookie ball to the majors is not always linear. There are lot of "better" prospects in A or AA at times while the journeymen are there as the 7th string option or just teaching younger players at AAA. It all depends.

 

I'm sure if we have a few other middle infielders make their way up that Orf may get cut as Wren did to latch on to another AAA team or maybe get a cup of coffee in the majors.

 

We've got Hiura, Dubon, and a handful of younger guys in the Rk/A/A+/AA levels that I'm sure all have MLB potential, but we are not brimming with future MLBers. It's rare that teams are. So for now, Orf can be a backup backup backup option and collect his minor league paycheck at AAA. I'd guess that if they don't call him up this year or early next year, he'll go the way of Wren. Maybe earlier.