Braun- When do you DFA?

[Boomer5]

Braun isn't getting DFA'd.

[adambr2]

I get the Votto and Goldschmidt examples but both of them have been far better players than Braun the last 5 years. Both maintain fairly elite level play every year.

 

Braun has not had an elite level season since 2012. He has two very good seasons since then and the rest he was an average player.

[JosephC]

This isn't meant to be a commentary on Braun but rather a statement on the Brewer's great outfield depth. It was deeply disappointing yesterday to see Hernan Perez starting in left field. IMO the best part about the additions of Yelich and Cain along with Braun, Santana, Broxton and Phillips was that we'd never have to see outfield at-bats from players like Perez (who's bat isn't good enough to be getting starts as a corner outfielder) or Thames (who has no business playing in the outfield because of defense). But only 12 games into the season, there is Perez starting a game in left field. I realize that many events played into this happening (injury, slumps, pitching matchup, etc), but it's still disappointing when the team was thought to have so much quality outfield depth.

[pacopete4]

This isn't meant to be a commentary on Braun but rather a statement on the Brewer's great outfield depth. It was deeply disappointing yesterday to see Hernan Perez starting in left field. IMO the best part about the additions of Yelich and Cain along with Braun, Santana, Broxton and Phillips was that we'd never have to see outfield at-bats from players like Perez (who's bat isn't good enough to be getting starts as a corner outfielder) or Thames (who has no business playing in the outfield because of defense). But only 12 games into the season, there is Perez starting a game in left field. I realize that many events played into this happening (injury, slumps, pitching matchup, etc), but it's still disappointing when the team was thought to have so much quality outfield depth.

 

Spot on post. There was no excuse to sit Braun last night. Cain, of course. But Braun... no way. Put your best lineup out there and play ball. Perez doesn't belong out there unless it is emergency time and last night was not it.

[adambr2]

This isn't meant to be a commentary on Braun but rather a statement on the Brewer's great outfield depth. It was deeply disappointing yesterday to see Hernan Perez starting in left field. IMO the best part about the additions of Yelich and Cain along with Braun, Santana, Broxton and Phillips was that we'd never have to see outfield at-bats from players like Perez (who's bat isn't good enough to be getting starts as a corner outfielder) or Thames (who has no business playing in the outfield because of defense). But only 12 games into the season, there is Perez starting a game in left field. I realize that many events played into this happening (injury, slumps, pitching matchup, etc), but it's still disappointing when the team was thought to have so much quality outfield depth.

 

Spot on post. There was no excuse to sit Braun last night. Cain, of course. But Braun... no way. Put your best lineup out there and play ball. Perez doesn't belong out there unless it is emergency time and last night was not it.

 

If Braun needs a maintenance day, he needs a maintenance day. We saw what happened last year and they're smart to take every necessary step to avoid that. He will need a lot of them. Braun's body does not care who else is already unavailable.

[tmwiese55]

I said it in the game thread last night too, I agree with what was just said. The situation called for Braun to man up both games last night and today while knowing he has Thursday coming as a maintenance day. Plus Cain comes back Friday so you could give him B2B days or give him Sunday off (when I think Yelich is back if I remember right). He'd still be getting two days off this week.

[bylo tesi me]

so, do we want to DFA Braun or do we want to start Braun in left when Cain and Yelich aren't available?

[JosephC]

With Yelich likely to return from the DL soon, and with Thames hitting the ball like he's hitting it, I see plenty of maintenance days in Braun's near future. No need to rest him before the 15 game mark of the season when a week from now he might only be getting 3 or 4 starts a week.

[ThisIsMyCrew]

#RyanBraun4Life

 

Love it!

[adambr2]

I can't believe people are this bothered by Perez getting one single start in CF with their top 2 outfielders unavailable. Braun has been below replacement level so far this year so perhaps Counsell wanted to give him a reset day. Or perhaps Braun told Counsell he needed a day, or Counsell doesn't want him going more than 5 straight.

 

Or perhaps his career struggles against Carlos Martinez might have been a factor. Or a numbers of things. I don't know, but it's really not that big of a deal. Ryan Braun is just not the daily must-have in your lineup that he was in his 20s.

[superfly]

Like it or not folks Ryan Braun is retiring a Brewer. Not sure why we keep debating his future with the team to no end. The bed was made years ago, now we get to lay in it for better or worse.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I kinda want this thread locked. Every time I see it at the top of the forum, I feel like the rest of MLB is laughing at us. I know I've already seen screenshots of it out there in Brewers twitterland, mocking in nature, and rightly so.

[pacopete4]

I kinda want this thread locked. Every time I see it at the top of the forum, I feel like the rest of MLB is laughing at us. I know I've already seen screenshots of it out there in Brewers twitterland, mocking in nature, and rightly so.

 

Yep. Agreed. Makes us look very foolish.

[FVBrewerFan]

I agree, lock it or even delete it. People aren't capable of having an intelligent conversation about the subject. I'll still maintain there's at least a 50/50 chance Braun will be DFAd, or negotiated retirement, however it technically happens. There is a huge performance risk and injury risk, and it's crazy to believe he won't make it through THREE more years? If you believe he can/will, great. I do not.

[3and2Fastball]

Like it or not folks Ryan Braun is retiring a Brewer. Not sure why we keep debating his future with the team to no end. The bed was made years ago, now we get to lay in it for better or worse.

 

At least he's finally playing some 1B, which some of us called for years ago, such as when we decided we had to trade Khris Davis.

[adambr2]

Adrian Gonzalez was DFAed. Albert Pujols will almost certainly be DFA at some point. The only reason A-Rod wasn't is the quiet deal he had with the Yankees to simply go away and be paid anyway. Any of those happening would have looked ludicrous at one time.

 

The same people who are incredulous about the idea of Braun ever being DFA were probably the same ones who laughed at the idea some wanted of trading him back in 2013, which would now look like a very wise move in retrospect.

 

Once great players can and do fall into that category if their performance falls off a cliff. Braun hasn't reached that point, no, but I don't think that's what the OP was implying.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I agree, lock it or even delete it. People aren't capable of having an intelligent conversation about the subject. I'll still maintain there's at least a 50/50 chance Braun will be DFAd, or negotiated retirement, however it technically happens. There is a huge performance risk and injury risk, and it's crazy to believe he won't make it through THREE more years? If you believe he can/will, great. I do not.

 

It's more the "clickbaity" type subject than the arguments going on in the thread. A better subject would maybe have been something like "Braun's Future with Team" or "When do we move on from Braun". But the subject the way its written doesn't point that direction to a lot of people.

[FVBrewerFan]

I agree, lock it or even delete it. People aren't capable of having an intelligent conversation about the subject. I'll still maintain there's at least a 50/50 chance Braun will be DFAd, or negotiated retirement, however it technically happens. There is a huge performance risk and injury risk, and it's crazy to believe he won't make it through THREE more years? If you believe he can/will, great. I do not.

 

It's more the "clickbaity" type subject than the arguments going on in the thread. A better subject would maybe have been something like "Braun's Future with Team" or "When do we move on from Braun". But the subject the way its written doesn't point that direction to a lot of people.

 

That's a fair point, and I have no problem if the Mods want to adjust the subject line. Or, like I said, lock or delete it. Fine by me. I specifically used the word "When." Not "DFA Braun Now!!!" But I agree with your suggestion.

[coolhandluke121]

I agree, lock it or even delete it. People aren't capable of having an intelligent conversation about the subject. I'll still maintain there's at least a 50/50 chance Braun will be DFAd, or negotiated retirement, however it technically happens. There is a huge performance risk and injury risk, and it's crazy to believe he won't make it through THREE more years? If you believe he can/will, great. I do not.

 

I think changing the title my be a valid criticism, but I don't disagree with your premise at all. We spent the whole off-season hearing about how Braun is still the best hitter on this team, how he would have been a hof-er, and how he was arguably as good as Yount. That alone should have told you how this thread would go.

 

Bottom line is this: this off-season was all about teams finally realizing you have to stop over-paying veterans so much. They end up making 8-figure salaries while being worse than young guys you can find on the waiver wire or as throw-ins in trades. They often end up being negative WAR players for the last year or two of their contracts. This is partly due to PED enforcement, which makes it harder for players to maintain their production well into their 30's, and partly about the value of draft picks and pool money and all that stuff. But it's also just teams wising up and realizing it's better for your chances of being consistently competitive. Baseball is inevitably going to be more like football, where you simply have to move on from aging veterans more often. I don't feel sorry for them no matter how good they once were. They generally got everything they deserved for what they brought to their teams (salary, endorsements, etc), and teams are under no obligation to hold themselves hostage over players like that. On the contrary, they truly owe it to their fans not to.

 

The natural next progression in being more rational about veterans is how long you stick with them when they're clearly past their prime. Braun's bat speed is clearly not the same. He can no longer do anything with those low/outside pitches that he still chases all the time. His body has been breaking down for years. If you can't trade him, the question about whether he even deserves a roster spot over guys like Aguilar, Phillips, or even Grisham could easily come up as early as next year. The Brewers have a sordid history of sticking with guys way too long even when they're showing blatant signs of falling apart. I think the moves of this off season and the games Braun has sat, combined with his performance, is an indication that they fully understand the issues with Braun and are more than prepared to relegate him to a much less prominent role on the team, and I truly believe they're doing the right thing.

[pacopete4]

For me, it is not that he cannot be DFA'd. Of course he can, if his play over a long period of time warrants it. It is the timing of the post and how it is worded that makes this like Joey Meyer Bombs said, clickbait.

[brewcrewdue80]

After reading everyone's response, here's my answer to my own question. Let's say they're going into 2020 as a legit contender, and Braun is coming off a bad year. They also have Ray or Grisham, etc. who raked in September after getting called up.

 

The money will be spent either way, do you want Braun as the 4th OF or Philips, Grisham, Ray, etc. if they've shown some ability to hit the ball, and obviously offer much better defensively.

 

That's the scenario I see playing out, Braun will have a spot this year and next, but going into the 2020 season a lot of variables in play.

 

 

Haha, Grisham or Ray Raking? Too much. Braun's bad year as you say is their Ceiling "Raking" year.

[pacopete4]

After reading everyone's response, here's my answer to my own question. Let's say they're going into 2020 as a legit contender, and Braun is coming off a bad year. They also have Ray or Grisham, etc. who raked in September after getting called up.

 

The money will be spent either way, do you want Braun as the 4th OF or Philips, Grisham, Ray, etc. if they've shown some ability to hit the ball, and obviously offer much better defensively.

 

That's the scenario I see playing out, Braun will have a spot this year and next, but going into the 2020 season a lot of variables in play.

 

 

Haha, Grisham or Ray Raking? Too much. Braun's bad year as you say is their Ceiling "Raking" year.

 

I wouldn't write off those two players just yet. And you couple that with Braun's age and injury history and it could very well happen. It is not like those two players do not have a good skill set. Just need to put it together on the field now.

[FVBrewerFan]

For me, it is not that he cannot be DFA'd. Of course he can, if his play over a long period of time warrants it. It is the timing of the post and how it is worded that makes this like Joey Meyer Bombs said, clickbait.

 

I can see that now, but that was not my intent. Have been around here for 10+ years and 6,000 posts, have never been one to post provacative stuff. Until now, I think the closest I've come to that is putting Peralta #1 on my Top 25 list.

[pacopete4]

For me, it is not that he cannot be DFA'd. Of course he can, if his play over a long period of time warrants it. It is the timing of the post and how it is worded that makes this like Joey Meyer Bombs said, clickbait.

 

I can see that now, but that was not my intent. Have been around here for 10+ years and 6,000 posts, have never been one to post provacative stuff. Until now, I think the closest I've come to that is putting Peralta #1 on my Top 25 list.

 

That is funny (bolded). And I totally believe you on intent.

[tmwiese55]

I agree, lock it or even delete it. People aren't capable of having an intelligent conversation about the subject. I'll still maintain there's at least a 50/50 chance Braun will be DFAd, or negotiated retirement, however it technically happens. There is a huge performance risk and injury risk, and it's crazy to believe he won't make it through THREE more years? If you believe he can/will, great. I do not.

 

I think changing the title my be a valid criticism, but I don't disagree with your premise at all. We spent the whole off-season hearing about how Braun is still the best hitter on this team, how he would have been a hof-er, and how he was arguably as good as Yount. That alone should have told you how this thread would go.

 

Bottom line is this: this off-season was all about teams finally realizing you have to stop over-paying veterans so much. They end up making 8-figure salaries while being worse than young guys you can find on the waiver wire or as throw-ins in trades. They often end up being negative WAR players for the last year or two of their contracts. This is partly due to PED enforcement, which makes it harder for players to maintain their production well into their 30's, and partly about the value of draft picks and pool money and all that stuff. But it's also just teams wising up and realizing it's better for your chances of being consistently competitive. Baseball is inevitably going to be more like football, where you simply have to move on from aging veterans more often. I don't feel sorry for them no matter how good they once were. They generally got everything they deserved for what they brought to their teams (salary, endorsements, etc), and teams are under no obligation to hold themselves hostage over players like that. On the contrary, they truly owe it to their fans not to.

 

The natural next progression in being more rational about veterans is how long you stick with them when they're clearly past their prime. Braun's bat speed is clearly not the same. He can no longer do anything with those low/outside pitches that he still chases all the time. His body has been breaking down for years. If you can't trade him, the question about whether he even deserves a roster spot over guys like Aguilar, Phillips, or even Grisham could easily come up as early as next year. The Brewers have a sordid history of sticking with guys way too long even when they're showing blatant signs of falling apart. I think the moves of this off season and the games Braun has sat, combined with his performance, is an indication that they fully understand the issues with Braun and are more than prepared to relegate him to a much less prominent role on the team, and I truly believe they're doing the right thing.

 

This is all valid. I just think we need a couple months to get to this point. We're like 12 games in so far, folks need to just bump the breaks on small samples. 2016 he was very good. He was good last year until the injury in September killed him. He 'shouldnt' fall off cliff this year though I acknowledge it's possible, but two weeks in isn't enough to jump to that conclusion. Kinda just have to sit back and let a few more weeks go by and also watch the ABs, not just results. Things like hitting hard even though outs, etc. Thus far that's not good though either due to his massive chasing the low outside pitch.