How many Mental Mistakes before Counsell gets Fired?

[coolhandluke121]

These are talented but deeply flawed players. That's the only reason the Brewers had a chance to acquire them with the limited fiscal and talent capital they had in the first place. You don't just "fix" guys like that, and it's a fascist attitude to think you can just keep yelling at them or lecturing them or benching them. These are mostly stopgaps until the real wave of talent arrives, and it really bothers me that so many people have their expectations completely out of whack. You're basically punishing them for being so unexpectedly successful last year if you've completely changed your expectations and lost sight of the fact that this team, by all rights, should be in year 3 of a 5-year rebuild.

 

People like that would be more respectful of the work Stearns and Counsell have done if the Brewers had won 75 games last year, because they'd appreciate the work they've done to build the young talent pool and develop the youth they have. They'd respect Counsell for working through going pains and sticking with guys to see what you've really got and develop assets, and they'd see how Stearns has built one of the deepest systems in baseball. But instead people have these completely whack expectations based on a bunch of cast-offs having career years at the same time, so in effect, winning 86 games last year makes people think they're doing a bad job when they're doing a great job. IT MAKES NO SENSE.

[FVBrewerFan]

Counsel has some goodwill saved up in the bank, but it's not like he's untouchable just because he has a good relationship with Stearns.

 

This team has been playing bad baseball. Mental errors, physical errors, too many horrible ABs. Doesn't matter how much of that is CC's fault, or what he can do about it. That's impossible to prove one way or another. I do not think he losses his job during the season unless he just completely "loses the team."

 

Even after the season, I doubt Stearns pulls the trigger but it's not impossible. I think the mistake we make is trying to justify a manger change with objective reasoning. But those decisions are almost always more subjective than objective.

[TURBO]

Counsell, for whatever reason, is Attanasio's and Stearns golden boy.

 

I see no scenario where he will be let go, in fact, I think he pretty much has a lifetime contract, even though not on paper, I think he will be the Brewers manager until he wants to leave.

 

Seriously.

[adambr2]

I'm more concerned about personnel decisions that Counsell and Stearns have made further down on the coaching staff.

 

Sedar continues to be back at 3rd every year despite pretty clearly being a bad 3rd base coach. Darnell Coles continues to field bottom half of the league offenses despite having reasonably good individual talent to work with.

 

Why they've found reason to replace other guys while these two remain immune is a mystery to me.

[3and2Fastball]

You're basically punishing them for being so unexpectedly successful last year if you've completely changed your expectations and lost sight of the fact that this team, by all rights, should be in year 3 of a 5-year rebuild.

.

 

We signed a 32 year old center fielder to a $80 million, 5 year contract because we are in year 3 of a 5 year rebuild?

[FVBrewerFan]

Counsell, for whatever reason, is Attanasio's and Stearns golden boy.

 

I see no scenario where he will be let go, in fact, I think he pretty much has a lifetime contract, even though not on paper, I think he will be the Brewers manager until he wants to leave.

 

Seriously.

 

Extreme example. They win 58 games the next 4 seasons, and CC doesn't get fired? It's business. No matter what their personal relationships are, results trump that.

[DocLuna7]

I understand that we have made an obscene amount of physical errors but can someone enlighten me where this team has made a ton of mental errors? Seems like a huge difference to me and speaks directly to the OP’s initial question.

[DocLuna7]

I understand that we have made an obscene amount of physical errors but can someone enlighten me where this team has made a ton of mental errors? Seems like a huge difference to me and speaks directly to the OP’s initial question.

[pacopete4]

There is always sloppy play to begin the year in the major leagues. It isn't just a Brewers thing.

[coolhandluke121]

You're basically punishing them for being so unexpectedly successful last year if you've completely changed your expectations and lost sight of the fact that this team, by all rights, should be in year 3 of a 5-year rebuild.

.

 

We signed a 32 year old center fielder to a $80 million, 5 year contract because we are in year 3 of a 5 year rebuild?

 

No, they signed him because he's a terrific player and they won 86 games last year so they owe it to themselves and their fans to try to upgrade if the player and the cost is right and they don't have to compromise their future too much. Hopefully last year was not a total fluke, and it was worth a gamble. However, that doesn't change the fact that the rebuild appearing to be so far ahead of schedule could have been a fluke, and it certainly doesn't mean it's reasonable to completely reset your expectations for how good they should be this year after a whole bunch of cast-offs and trade throw-ins had career years.

 

It's not really complicated. If last year proves to be a fluke, then you would be holding last year's success against them by letting it reset your expectations and forgetting what situation they were in just a few years ago. If they would be doing a better job in your eyes by winning 75 games last year (and make no mistake - winning 75 games with this system and having just a few of the stopgaps like Shaw and Anderson emerge as assets would have been a very successful season under the circumstances) while having the same bright future they have now, then there's something really wrong with the way you're evaluating their performance.

[TURBO]

There is always sloppy play to begin the year in the major leagues. It isn't just a Brewers thing.

 

but we haven't seen as much from our competition, that's for sure...

[pacopete4]

There is always sloppy play to begin the year in the major leagues. It isn't just a Brewers thing.

 

but we haven't seen as much from our competition, that's for sure...

You are correct there for the most part but it is also easy to be blinded because we are fans of one team. There have been some pretty bad things on other teams as well. If it doesn't get better in a week or two, then it is a problem. Right now, I'm not too concerned as it is still very early.

[homer]

I'll give them eleven teen more mistakes.

[JohnBriggs12]

It's nonsensical to think Counsell has the job for life. Roenicke was beloved after 2011 and he got fired a month into 2015 season. Counsell wasn't a Stearns hire. They might appear to be joined at the hip but when Stearns starts to sense his job is in jeopardy, he won't hesitate to make a change. The earliest that would be is 2019 though.

 

It's pretty obvious to me that a reason these defensive lapses and mental errors continue is that there are no repercussions. Just yesterday, on the ball Villar hit to deep RF that Heyward misplayed into a double, he trotted out of the box. Had he busted it (like the Cub players did all series), he easily makes 3B, and scores that inning. Think anyone even mentioned it to him? I don't. That kind of lackadaisical play is tolerated. That's why it continues.

[3and2Fastball]

So if we replace Santana, Villar, Aguillar, Thames and hope Arcia grows up we'll be OK? Meanwhile Braun is throwing to the wrong base, and twice Cain hasn't charged a ball hard enough, allowing a run to score once and an extra base the other time.

 

I get that Counsell's job is safe for the foreseeable future, but at some point the sloppy play will come back to his job security, I think I'm sure of that. I'm relatively certain that owning the Brewers is more than just a "fun hobby" for Mark A, that he actually wants to win.

 

Maybe Miller Park is just a rich man's playground. Sure, winning the World Series would be awesome, but as long as the team is turning a profit and there are lots of fun times and fun seasons, well perhaps ultimately Mark A is good with that? I honestly can't tell for certain. In that scenario, Counsell is manager for life.

 

What I do know is that the Brewers play an embarrassing brand of sloppy Baseball. This is a franchise that is clearly not ready for prime time.

[liveforoctober]

So if we replace Santana, Villar, Aguillar, Thames and hope Arcia grows up we'll be OK? Meanwhile Braun is throwing to the wrong base, and twice Cain hasn't charged a ball hard enough, allowing a run to score once and an extra base the other time.

 

I get that Counsell's job is safe for the foreseeable future, but at some point the sloppy play will come back to his job security, I think I'm sure of that. I'm relatively certain that owning the Brewers is more than just a "fun hobby" for Mark A, that he actually wants to win.

 

Maybe Miller Park is just a rich man's playground. Sure, winning the World Series would be awesome, but as long as the team is turning a profit and there are lots of fun times and fun seasons, well perhaps ultimately Mark A is good with that? I honestly can't tell for certain. In that scenario, Counsell is manager for life.

 

What I do know is that the Brewers play an embarrassing brand of sloppy Baseball. This is a franchise that is clearly not ready for prime time.

 

The Brewers' last week+ has been a sloppy exhibition. To claim the Brewers have an identity of embarrassing/sloppy play is reactionary. Why is Aguilar's name on this list? Because he kicked one yesterday? Why don't we add Yelich to the list for getting hurt? That's embarrassing. What about Knebel not being stretched out enough to avoid his hamstring pulling? That was on Counsell too. The concession stand I went to on opening day was out of ketchup ... poor execution from the front office?

 

My suggestion is to give it more than two weeks before you crucify this team.

[3and2Fastball]

If only it was two weeks. The Brewers have displayed several consecutive years of ineptitude. The 2nd Half of 2017 featured some of most mind numbingly stupid approaches at the plate as I have ever seen in my 46 years of watching Baseball, throw in the mental mistakes on the bases, windmill Eddie running us into outs at the plate a few times a week, and questionable lineups and the season was a disaster....

[TJseven7]

The record is not the issue. Based on record they've probably overachieved this year. The issue is that they're doing the same stupid things as last year.

 

Who's not the same players as last year? Cain who has been quite good. Yelich who has been great in limited action. Its the same team in the field. Cain Yelich were going to be big upgrades but the other 7 are the same. Of that 7, 2 are good defenders in Shaw and Pina. Arcia is too but is making the young dumb mistakes. That leaves 4 spots that were a defensive issue that are still a defensive issue.

 

We had bouts of this last year too... and did just fine. Teams not a great defensive team. You can't upgrade 5 defensive spots in 1 year. A remodel to that level takes years. The pen was an issue last year and the systems pushing that out of existence. Adding/keeping Albers Jennings Jeffress with our home grown talent has tied that all together. The staffs catching up to where we want it due to the system.

 

Dubon and Phillips are meant to upgrade the defense in the next season.

 

Everything talent wise is trending in the right direction but results seems to be happening faster than we expected while fixes are 1 year behind where we imagine.

[tmwiese55]

The team overachieved drastically last year and are 5-5 ten games into this year. He's nowhere near the hot seat.

 

The person I'd say should be concerned is the hitting coach. I'd seriously consider trying someone else if this continues for a few more weeks. It was terrible from May on last year and so far this year in spite having some good players.

[TURBO]

The team overachieved drastically last year and are 5-5 ten games into this year. He's nowhere near the hot seat.

 

The person I'd say should be concerned is the hitting coach. I'd seriously consider trying someone else if this continues for a few more weeks. It was terrible from May on last year and so far this year in spite having some good players.

 

Add Eddie Sedar to that list, but he seems to be 100% bullet proof as far as his job is concerned.

[chuckiehacks]

 

Add Eddie Sedar to that list, but he seems to be 100% bullet proof as far as his job is concerned.

 

I'm not picking on you, as I see this all the time, but why does everyone think Sedar is so bad? Yes, guys get thrown out at the plate, but if you never have anyone thrown out, you're not sending enough runners. Someone did a study on this (fangraphs or 538, maybe?) which confirmed that there's a balance between sending too many guys and not enough which involved making some outs at home.

 

The Brewers run the contact play with a runner on third more than I'd like, but that's not on Sedar.

 

I assume this is just like every other team (nearly everyone hates their third base coach) mixed with the sky-is-falling nature of a lot of posts here when the team is struggling.

[topper09er]

why does everyone think Sedar is so bad?

 

Because he occasionally sends guys who are out by a mile. No one complains about bang-bang outs at home. Since there is no stat for "average distance from home the runner is when the catcher has the ball" I don't think there is any way to measure Sedar's badness, but it "seems" (I admit again based on no hard evidence) he issues way too many out by a mile type sends.

[istanbultaye]

In regards to Eddie, I agree that there are too many out by a mile, but there is some exaggeration going on with the "several times a week" comment that was made earlier. If his performance outside of that is enough for this organization to overlook that weakness, then that is why he still has the job. Sending guys home isn't the only thing a 3B coach does I assume, just the most visible to us watching from bleachers/couch.

 

In regards to the mistakes, Counsell specifically said in the post game that Villar should have been at 3rd. Don't see how he's not calling him out for that with that comment. The only other major "mental" mistake I can remember is Arcia thinking there was 2 outs, and he didn't start the next game after that, so it seems like there are consequences potentially in play to me.

[tmwiese55]

The way they talk about Eddie on TV he's very involved in the defensive shifting/scheming and the Brewers were on of the first adopters or heaviest users of this over the years before it caught on everywhere. So there's probably a role for him regardless, but I'd have been fine with him going back to 1B coach a couple years ago now.

[markedman5]

My guess is every fan base complains about the 3rd base coach getting guys thrown out too often and by "a mile"......you just notice your own coach because you don't pay attention to other teams nearly as closely.....and don't care when their guys get thrown out.

 

I doubt Seder is worse then average but I obviously have no data to back up my assumption.