What's wrong with Gabe Kapler?

[young guns]

Imagine showing up to work and the door is locked, you get inside and go to grab your safety gear and are told to just be really careful for a few minutes and someone will bring it to you later because you are already behind schedule.

 

The reality is that that it's probably pretty hard to restrain yourself as a professional athlete in that situation.

I think a closer scenario would be before you begin work theres organized stretching before lifting things, but today they canceled it because theyre running behind and then its up to you to decide if you want to stretch yourself out/start with light stuff to work up to big stuff or go right into heavy lifting.

 

Yes they are, they get ejected.

Only if they are intentionally throwing at people. If the pitcher is just wild and has some near misses up high, the ump doesn't go you know what. You have no idea where the ball is going and that's dangerous. Hit the showers.

 

I don't know what the right response is, but I kinda feel unsatisfied with the response we got.

[brewerfan82]

Maybe I missed the obvious answer here, but was there a reason they couldn't just keep the existing pitcher in the game for another batter while someone warmed up? ie. were they pinch hit for the previous half inning? Or was it just they already made the move so they couldn't take it back? Even then, as someone mentioned the Brewers did at some point, maybe the ump should have just suggested "you better use one of your position players who's already loose for a batter while you get someone warmed up properly."

[jerichoholicninja]

I'd argue that player safety is always part of an official's job.

 

Where's the safety issue? Common sense says if I go into a game without proper warmup, I shouldn't attempt to throw my hardest the first few pitches. It sucks that I can't let loose right away, but my manager screwed up. Too bad for me. Now if I decide to throw my hardest and injure myself then I'm at fault, not my manager, and not the umpire. The safety issue is clearly in the players hands.

 

Pretty much. Are umpires allowed to remove pitchers who don't have control of their fastball because they might injure a batter? I get what the ump was trying to do, but that's not his job. If the pitcher isn't warmed up, too bad. Have him lob a few balls to the batters until he's loose.

Yes they are, they get ejected.

 

No they don't. An umpire will only eject a pitcher if it's deemed intentional.

[Outlander]

Which can be deemed intentional if hitters are getting beaned so yes they do as stated.

[Thurston Fluff]

I'd argue that player safety is always part of an official's job.

 

Where's the safety issue? Common sense says if I go into a game without proper warmup, I shouldn't attempt to throw my hardest the first few pitches. It sucks that I can't let loose right away, but my manager screwed up. Too bad for me. Now if I decide to throw my hardest and injure myself then I'm at fault, not my manager, and not the umpire. The safety issue is clearly in the players hands.

 

Pretty much. Are umpires allowed to remove pitchers who don't have control of their fastball because they might injure a batter? I get what the ump was trying to do, but that's not his job. If the pitcher isn't warmed up, too bad. Have him lob a few balls to the batters until he's loose.

 

I'm of the same mind as you two. This happened to the Brewers a few years back and the umps asked Atlanta's manager if he could take a few more warm up pitches and Gonzales refused to allow it. The umps followed the rules but also took the time to tell to Smith to worry about his safety instead of the game. As did RRR. Smith did so and predictably got hit hard and it cost us the game. But that should be the penalty for stupidity. In RRR's defense, he didn't have his normal coaches in place because two of them were at their kids graduation. This one is even less forgivable.

[young guns]

Which can be deemed intentional if hitters are getting beaned so yes they do as stated.

Seems you missed my objectuon the first time. Only if they are intentionally throwing at people. If the pitcher is just wild and has some near misses up high, the ump doesn't go you know what. You have no idea where the ball is going and that's dangerous. Hit the showers.

 

If a pitcher is just plain wild and has some near misses, but doesn't actually hit anyone, the umpire doesn't take them out even though it's a player safety issue. In both situations, wild pitcher and inadequate warm-up, there is the possibility of a player being hurt unintentionally. So if we are going to set a precedent where an umpire can bend the rules in the name of player safety, one could argue the next time a pitcher comes high and in just missing the batter, the pitcher should be tossed in the name of player safety.

[timpep]

One huge difference between this and unintentional wildness is that there is a rule specifically allowing extra warmup pitches if the umpire feels that not giving the pitches could result in injury.

[502 to Right]

This is what you get when you hire a guy who has one year of managing experience and it's 11 years ago in Class A ball.

 

So the Brewers shouldn't have hired Counsell?

 

I would not have hired him.

[jerichoholicninja]

According to Chris Russo, the bad guy in all of this is Brain Snitker because his arguing made Kapler look bad. Give me a freaking break.

[jerichoholicninja]

One huge difference between this and unintentional wildness is that there is a rule specifically allowing extra warmup pitches if the umpire feels that not giving the pitches could result in injury.

 

I don't believe this is true at all.

[timpep]

One huge difference between this and unintentional wildness is that there is a rule specifically allowing extra warmup pitches if the umpire feels that not giving the pitches could result in injury.

 

I don't believe this is true at all.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-pace-of-play-rules-explanation/c-266724556

 

You make it sound like I'm making things up!

 

The following section from the linked article is what I am looking at.

 

Seems like the rules give the umps some leeway to me.

 

There are a few special circumstances in which the break will be extended, including:

 

• A delay in normal warmup activities through no fault of the players, such as an injury or medical emergency, equipment issues or playing field or grounds crew issues

• The umpire believes the pitcher is at legitimate risk of injury if he does not receive additional time to throw warmup pitches

• The umpire believes the batter is at risk of injury if he does not receive additional time to enter the batter's box

• Any other circumstances in which, in the umpire's judgment, more time is needed

[pacopete4]

I love that there’s a rule for this common sense situation that occurred. Kapler still should have been ejected though. Great find Timpep

[young guns]

I did not k ow that rule existed, and i dont think any sports writers did either cause it was not referenced in any articles i read.

[Thurston Fluff]

I wonder when that rule was put in place. It would have made a difference when it happened to the Brewers. Perhaps it was added because of it.

[topper09er]

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-pace-of-play-rules-explanation/c-266724556

 

You make it sound like I'm making things up!

 

The following section from the linked article is what I am looking at.

 

Seems like the rules give the umps some leeway to me.

 

There are a few special circumstances in which the break will be extended, including:

 

• A delay in normal warmup activities through no fault of the players, such as an injury or medical emergency, equipment issues or playing field or grounds crew issues

• The umpire believes the pitcher is at legitimate risk of injury if he does not receive additional time to throw warmup pitches

• The umpire believes the batter is at risk of injury if he does not receive additional time to enter the batter's box

• Any other circumstances in which, in the umpire's judgment, more time is needed

 

Given this no one should warm up ever, just wait until you want the next pitcher and have them warm up on the mound for as long as they need.

[brewerfan82]

Given this no one should warm up ever, just wait until you want the next pitcher and have them warm up on the mound for as long as they need.

 

Well you're leaving it up to the discretion of the umpire at that point too, so probably not a great idea. I think it's good umpires can use common sense to bend a rule this way, but there should be some sort of punishment for the team delaying the game. Maybe a "delay of game" penalty, lol. First batter gets an automatic walk or something.

[homer]

Given this no one should warm up ever, just wait until you want the next pitcher and have them warm up on the mound for as long as they need.

 

Well you're leaving it up to the discretion of the umpire at that point too, so probably not a great idea. I think it's good umpires can use common sense to bend a rule this way, but there should be some sort of punishment for the team delaying the game. Maybe a "delay of game" penalty, lol. First batter gets an automatic walk or something.

 

Also, I think if a manager has done this before they would be much less likely to allow it going forward.

[topper09er]

Given this no one should warm up ever, just wait until you want the next pitcher and have them warm up on the mound for as long as they need.

 

Well you're leaving it up to the discretion of the umpire at that point too, so probably not a great idea. I think it's good umpires can use common sense to bend a rule this way, but there should be some sort of punishment for the team delaying the game. Maybe a "delay of game" penalty, lol. First batter gets an automatic walk or something.

 

Also, I think if a manager has done this before they would be much less likely to allow it going forward.

 

What does the manager's history have to do with the injury risk of the player?

 

I am not really suggesting this, just pointing out this dumb exception to the already dumb rule. Not warming up has nothing to do with preventing an injury, it just means you need to complete your warming up during a live AB.

[timpep]

I imagine at some point a fine or suspension might be used if it was intentionally abused.

[502 to Right]

Not warming up has nothing to do with preventing an injury, it just means you need to complete your warming up during a live AB.

 

If I was a pitcher in this scenario I would inform the ump that I'm going to throw at the batter. Then toss a 70 mph fastball at the batter's head (I assume the batter will be able to get out of the way and not actually get hit since I already warned him it was coming). Instant ejection. No injury, no messed up stat line. Then the replacement pitcher gets as many pitches as he wants to get warmed up.

[owbc]

With two outs in the bottom of the sixth and the score tied at two, Mets shortstop Ahmed Rosario came up with men on the corners. Kapler, not expecting Rosario’s power to burn him, had his right fielder play in an extremely shallow position, hoping to prevent the Mets from taking the lead on a bloop hit. Of course, Rosario rocked one right over the right fielder’s head:

 

After the game, Kapler explained that he was “optimizing” for the ball to be hit to shallow right. When he was asked if he considered the 20-mph wind that had been blowing straight out to right field throughout the day while “optimizing,” he had this to say (via The Athletic):

 

“To depend on the wind to push the ball around there was not what we were optimizing for,” Kapler said. “We’re optimizing to take the away the ball in front of us and we’re not thinking about getting beat by slug power or extra bases in those situations.”

 

LOL. Kapler doesn't actually know anything about analytics, does he?

[stoutdude04]

With two outs in the bottom of the sixth and the score tied at two, Mets shortstop Ahmed Rosario came up with men on the corners. Kapler, not expecting Rosario’s power to burn him, had his right fielder play in an extremely shallow position, hoping to prevent the Mets from taking the lead on a bloop hit. Of course, Rosario rocked one right over the right fielder’s head:

 

After the game, Kapler explained that he was “optimizing” for the ball to be hit to shallow right. When he was asked if he considered the 20-mph wind that had been blowing straight out to right field throughout the day while “optimizing,” he had this to say (via The Athletic):

 

“To depend on the wind to push the ball around there was not what we were optimizing for,” Kapler said. “We’re optimizing to take the away the ball in front of us and we’re not thinking about getting beat by slug power or extra bases in those situations.”

 

LOL. Kapler doesn't actually know anything about analytics, does he?

 

I read the word optimizing a lot and I don't think he knows what that word means.

[jerichoholicninja]

It sounds like had the RF played in a normal spot the run would have scored easily on a sac fly so they moved him in so the fielder had a shot at the plate. Sounds like a sound strategy to me. Maybe not in the 6th inning but not crazy overall. He just sounds like an idiot trying to rationalize it.

[A Swing and A Drive]

It sounds like his players are already expressing their frustrations with Kapler through the media. Not good.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/phillies-outfielder-blames-the-computers-for-his-lack-of-playing-time/

[MadScientist]

It sounds like his players are already expressing their frustrations with Kapler through the media. Not good.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/phillies-outfielder-blames-the-computers-for-his-lack-of-playing-time/

There are a lot of comments here about the Brewers line-ups along the lines of 'why is Sogard in there' or 'Arcia should be in every day', etc. The comments of Nick Williams shows the importance of giving the backups enough work. Managing by analytics may in theory give a better chance of winning a game, but managing the people will make a difference over the season.