Stearns separates fact from fiction in Brewers' search for starting pitchers

[82brewcrew82]

You said there as talk of Braun moving to first for three years (very wrong) and then, when called out, answer with "why should they talk about it"? Braun saying he would move around for the team is one thing, he never said anything specifically about first so........

 

The evidence squarely points to the team wanting to trade Santana for pitching and keeping Braun in right. The only person pounding their fists is you and it's not just this thread.

 

There was nothing inevitable about this until it became clear they had a logjam in the OF they were not going to be able to clear. If you think they were trading Santana to open up RF for Phillips I'm not sure what to tell you.

[brewerfan82]

Well before we added Yelich and Cain, Braun stated that he was open to playing any position but 3b. That if the roster composition required it he'd be willing to switch positions. That was in OCTOBER. So unless you want to believe we already knew then that we'd have cain yelich and be stuck on Santana... or that we had OFs we were dying to play over our options at 1b prior to 2018... you are flatly wrong. Sorry not sorry.

Link? Just curious how he had worded that, I don't recall ever hearing anything from him that made it seem like a move was likely until after the Cain/Yelich acquisitions and being open to moving positions is a far cry from the organization planning around making him move to a position he's never played before.

 

You want to ignore where the evidence points so you can pound your fists on the table and accuse this move of being desperate and reactionary, be my guest. That doesn't make your stance correct. I don't care what my stance ends up being... I just follow evidence until I have a stance. This was an inevitable switch, that was on the back burner until it made sense for roster composition. Here we are.

 

Why did we add Yelich Cain while we still had Santana. Cuz we thought we'd trade Santana and assumed we had the option of Braun at 1st. It's highly likely that if we traded Santana Phillips would be up and not merely as some 4th OF, but as our RF and Braun would still get time at 1b. Phillips > Aguilar

Speculation does not equal evidence. You seem to fill in a lot of gaps in your knowledge about what's going on behind the scenes with some strangely strong assumptions on your part. I haven't had any sense that the organization prefers moving Braun to first base. In fact they have made several acquisitions in Thames, Aguilar, and Choi the past year and change to fill that position rather than moving him there. Recent comments from Braun have also suggested that this move to first is only while the roster necessitates. It seems like a stretch to assume he wouldn't go back to a more natural position if the outfield allowed for it. I also just don't agree that having Phillips in RF and Braun/Thames at 1st would be a better option than Braun in LF/RF and Thames/Aguilar at 1st if those became our options. Phillips as the 4th OF at any of the three positions as needed would be fantastic, I just don't think he's proven he's ready to just take an everyday job yet if Santana were to be moved.

[MrTPlush]

No, they refused to ever consider it before now. I can check, but we had some awful 1B in the past few years. Many times we went into the offseason with nothing and could have easily moved Braun to first and got an OF in FA or trade instead. Which would have been better for the offense no doubt. Maybe even defensively.

[TJseven7]

Well before we added Yelich and Cain, Braun stated that he was open to playing any position but 3b. That if the roster composition required it he'd be willing to switch positions. That was in OCTOBER. So unless you want to believe we already knew then that we'd have cain yelich and be stuck on Santana... or that we had OFs we were dying to play over our options at 1b prior to 2018... you are flatly wrong. Sorry not sorry.

Link? Just curious how he had worded that, I don't recall ever hearing anything from him that made it seem like a move was likely until after the Cain/Yelich acquisitions and being open to moving positions is a far cry from the organization planning around making him move to a position he's never played before.

 

You want to ignore where the evidence points so you can pound your fists on the table and accuse this move of being desperate and reactionary, be my guest. That doesn't make your stance correct. I don't care what my stance ends up being... I just follow evidence until I have a stance. This was an inevitable switch, that was on the back burner until it made sense for roster composition. Here we are.

 

Why did we add Yelich Cain while we still had Santana. Cuz we thought we'd trade Santana and assumed we had the option of Braun at 1st. It's highly likely that if we traded Santana Phillips would be up and not merely as some 4th OF, but as our RF and Braun would still get time at 1b. Phillips > Aguilar

Speculation does not equal evidence. You seem to fill in a lot of gaps in your knowledge about what's going on behind the scenes with some strangely strong assumptions on your part. I haven't had any sense that the organization prefers moving Braun to first base. In fact they have made several acquisitions in Thames, Aguilar, and Choi the past year and change to fill that position rather than moving him there. Recent comments from Braun have also suggested that this move to first is only while the roster necessitates. It seems like a stretch to assume he wouldn't go back to a more natural position if the outfield allowed for it. I also just don't agree that having Phillips in RF and Braun/Thames at 1st would be a better option than Braun in LF/RF and Thames/Aguilar at 1st if those became our options. Phillips as the 4th OF at any of the three positions as needed would be fantastic, I just don't think he's proven he's ready to just take an everyday job yet if Santana were to be moved.

 

Link October 19th

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.mlb.com/259061492-brewers-ryan-braun-discusses-future.amp.html

 

"I can check, but we had some awful 1B in the past few years."

 

Save yourself the trouble... I did it weeks ago. From Lind on our options at 1b were better than our 4th OF. Saying we could have moved him and aquired an OF is not the point. We could have added a SS and moved Arcia to 2b. You can play the... we could have added X game with anyone. We had what we had, had bargains we could add and the final result left Braun in Left as the best option. Aguilar was free, we arent adding a LF who hits like aguilar for free unless hes defense poor. We arent adding a lhb LF who hits like thames for his deal and Thames is a worse outfielder than Braun. Choi is Thames insurance. We know this. All our 1b options were cheap sluggers at a low spectum defense position. They were all far better than kirk and franklin.

 

Allen you know what happens to OF hitters after defense fades... DH 1B. We've seen it many times. You don't add cain yelich unless you plan to or at least think you can make that move. You understand the risk of possibly keeping santana so you have to have an out up your sleeve. I'm not saying we did this specifically to move Braun to 1b... but we absolutely knew it was an option. If Brinson Phillips stayed, he was moving that way before his contract ran out no matter which way you slice it. On top of that Santanas poor defense was on the block immediately... so we could put Brauns poor defense there? I don't think so.

 

Phillips 4th OF only is a complete waste. Braun in RF is right back to crap defense from RF. Aguilar over Phillips is crazy. Phillips defense alone could surpass Aguilars value. Splitting Braun RF anf 1b to get phillips a bigger sample makes far more sense.

 

Braun says he'll move if necessity merits it. So we add yelich cain. Necessity prior to 2018... zero. Big necessity now.

We are trying to trade our poor defending RF before we land either. We don't want Braun in RF either he has poor defense there too. But Phillips is still sitting there on the cusp. A defensive prized RF prospect.

Braun does not fit in what Stearns wants in the OF. He platoons perfectly with Thames though.

 

That's not evidence of them wanting him at 1b? Brauns there due to necessity... ok when's that going away? Santana gets traded... oh we have phillips glove to play in RF. That necessity is here to stay.

[brewerfan82]

Phillips 4th OF only is a complete waste. Braun in RF is right back to crap defense from RF. Aguilar over Phillips is crazy. Phillips defense alone could surpass Aguilars value. Splitting Braun RF anf 1b to get phillips a bigger sample makes far more sense.

I think we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on all this, but it's not choosing Aguilar over Phillips, it's choosing Thames over Phillips. Braun (and his ZiPS projected OPS+ of 122) is playing near everyday if he's healthy whether that's in a corner outfield spot (with Thames and his projected 125 OPS+ taking most of the time at 1st) or at 1st (with Phillips and his projected 87 OPS+ getting most of the time in RF). In the longrun, yes, I can see Braun at 1st and Phillips being a nice piece of the outfield everyday, but we're talking about this year. If Santana was moved this offseason I don't think Braun plays a single inning at first this Spring.

[82brewcrew82]

An interview from October is not three years ago. In that interview he LITERALLY says "if they approach me about that, I'm open to it". Which means they hadn't approached him about it. We do know they were shopping Santana back then. I mean, my 10 year old can draw that line. Comparing that situation to a gold glove caliber SS moving to second is just ridiculous. It is far easier to find an OF than a first baseman (see our revolving door) and moving Braun to first could have easily happened any number of times over the last few years if that was the plan. Suggesting that it is an ordained move is pure speculation, not fact. I have no question that if Santana were to be traded, Braun would be the everyday RF.

[TJseven7]

Phillips 4th OF only is a complete waste. Braun in RF is right back to crap defense from RF. Aguilar over Phillips is crazy. Phillips defense alone could surpass Aguilars value. Splitting Braun RF anf 1b to get phillips a bigger sample makes far more sense.

I think we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree on all this, but it's not choosing Aguilar over Phillips, it's choosing Thames over Phillips. Braun (and his ZiPS projected OPS+ of 122) is playing near everyday if he's healthy whether that's in a corner outfield spot (with Thames and his projected 125 OPS+ taking most of the time at 1st) or at 1st (with Phillips and his projected 87 OPS+ getting most of the time in RF). In the longrun, yes, I can see Braun at 1st and Phillips being a nice piece of the outfield everyday, but we're talking about this year. If Santana was moved this offseason I don't think Braun plays a single inning at first this Spring.

 

If Santana was traded today...

I wouldn't call Phillips everyday either... but the braun start discussion has Yelich 145, Cain 135... If you consider Braun RF starter 120 you have 86 starts for Phillips. I want 24-34 more. Maybe that's every day to you... maybe I should call that everyday. Regardless... thats starts I want taken from Aguilar.

 

Food for thought...

Phillips 98 PA 1.4 war

Thames 550 PA 1.4 war

Aguilar 310 PA 1.2 war.

 

I'd assume that's explained as different ways to skin a cat and I prefer the ridiculous defense in the OF version. Thames Aguilar are bad defenders... Brauns defensive impact will be a minimal difference. Braun isn't santana terrible but he's close in RF... phillips would be a gigantic upgrade on defense.

[TJseven7]

"It is far easier to find an OF than a first baseman."

 

Franklin, Kirk, Perez, Broxton, etc etc etc. No its not easier to find an OF that can hit and play OF than it is to find a 1b who can hit and field 1b. 1b is the bottom of the spectrum.

 

PS: the 3 years talk of Braun to 1b was media driven because its a logical progression in his career. I was referencing that to point to the "necessity" talk in Brauns interview. I'll admit Braun to 1b wasn't a consideration until this offseason but that started before Yelich Cain. It was never a consideration before because of a complete lack of necessity... we needed him in LF. We could add scrubs at 1b that could impact offense easier than OF.

[tigerbrew]

Fact From Fiction Article per Tom Haudricourt

 

This seemed share worthy and a good read.

 

Good article by TH, looks like Stearns is very much into the youth movement for pitching, which probably means Woodruff will be in the team and Burnes will be up soon.

[trwi7]

“Our entire strategy is based on a philosophy that young players need to play.

 

Oh, so that's why Nieuwenhuis kept playing over Santana in 2016.

[82brewcrew82]

"It is far easier to find an OF than a first baseman."

 

Franklin, Kirk, Perez, Broxton, etc etc etc. No its not easier to find an OF that can hit and play OF than it is to find a 1b who can hit and field 1b. 1b is the bottom of the spectrum.

 

PS: the 3 years talk of Braun to 1b was media driven because its a logical progression in his career. I was referencing that to point to the "necessity" talk in Brauns interview. I'll admit Braun to 1b wasn't a consideration until this offseason but that started before Yelich Cain. It was never a consideration before because of a complete lack of necessity... we needed him in LF. We could add scrubs at 1b that could impact offense easier than OF.

Agree to disagree....

 

edit: no need for anything else. deleted second half of sentence.

[Never Outhustled]

I like the organizational philosophy of letting Derrick Johnson build the pitching staff and using the rest of the assets on improving the offense and defense. Johnson's work has been basically the only reason we believe in Stearns and had a successful season last year.

[xisxisxis]

Johnson's work has been basically the only reason we believe in Stearns and had a successful season last year.

 

Thank God Johnson convinced Stearns to turn nothing into Travis Shaw and sign Eric Thomas... masterful work by the pitching coach there... And trading for Domingo Santana, just brilliant moves by Johnson...

[Fear The Chorizo]

I get the premise, but Melvin acquired santana, hader, phillips, and houser from the astros, where Stearns was part of their FO.

[homer]

Re: moving Braun to first. This is from an interview in February of 2016 (which is actually recapping a conversation from the 2015 Winter Meetings):

 

Q: Has there been even the slightest talk of Ryan Braun moving to first base now that you knew you were going to trade your first baseman?

 

Counsell: No.

 

Q: It's just not going to happen?

 

Counsell: No.

 

Q: Is that because you like what he does in the outfield?

 

Counsell: Yeah, it's not something we talked about.

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/will-brewers-move-ryan-braun-to-1b/c-163980862

[sveumrules]

“Our entire strategy is based on a philosophy that young players need to play.

 

Oh, so that's why Nieuwenhuis kept playing over Santana in 2016.

 

Santana started 28 of the first 40 games in RF in 2016 before going on the DL. Over that same timeframe Kirk did not start a single game in RF.

 

Santana came back to the majors from injury/rehab on August 19th. From then until the end of the season he started 30 of 42 games. Over that same timeframe Kirk started 10 games in RF.

 

With regards to the TH piece, I'm glad that Stearns stuck to his guns & didn't make a deal just for the sake of making a deal or because he felt pressure to go all in following the other moves. Despite the loss of Brinson/Monte/Isan & the money committed to LoCain, I feel we improved both our current & future outlook this offseason.

[82brewcrew82]

Johnson's work has been basically the only reason we believe in Stearns and had a successful season last year.

 

Thank God Johnson convinced Stearns to turn nothing into Travis Shaw and sign Eric Thomas... masterful work by the pitching coach there... And trading for Domingo Santana, just brilliant moves by Johnson...

Gotta agree here. I'm not sure what point is trying to be made by the OP but that makes absolutely no sense to me.

[JohnBriggs12]

Planned scenario, I'd pencil in Yelich for 145 starts and Cain for 135.

Thames can start 120 against RHP at 1st.

 

That's 42 starts at 1st for Braun and 42 for Santana already. If all Yelich's days off come against LHP than Perez gets 17 in left. Cain's 27 off would presumably be against RHP, Braun and Santana both get another 27 starts there bringing them up to 69, another 5 each at DH brings them up to 74, which would put them each around 120 if they split the remainder.

 

There's work to go around without putting Thames out to pasture. This is if every single one of these guys avoids the DL all year which isn't going to happen.

 

 

Yelich will only get about one off day a month and they're not paying Cain $80 million over 4 years to sit once a week, at least not this year. Yelich will start 155 games and Cain 150.

[Never Outhustled]

Johnson's work has been basically the only reason we believe in Stearns and had a successful season last year.

 

Thank God Johnson convinced Stearns to turn nothing into Travis Shaw and sign Eric Thomas... masterful work by the pitching coach there... And trading for Domingo Santana, just brilliant moves by Johnson...

Gotta agree here. I'm not sure what point is trying to be made by the OP but that makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

Santana was already here, and the Brewers already had numerous good offense players when Stearns took the reigns. The Brewers were just 19th in runs scored last year, but were 9th in pitching.

 

I'm not bashing on Stearns though, it was his outside the box idea to bring in Johnson.

[Never Outhustled]

Planned scenario, I'd pencil in Yelich for 145 starts and Cain for 135.

Thames can start 120 against RHP at 1st.

 

That's 42 starts at 1st for Braun and 42 for Santana already. If all Yelich's days off come against LHP than Perez gets 17 in left. Cain's 27 off would presumably be against RHP, Braun and Santana both get another 27 starts there bringing them up to 69, another 5 each at DH brings them up to 74, which would put them each around 120 if they split the remainder.

 

There's work to go around without putting Thames out to pasture. This is if every single one of these guys avoids the DL all year which isn't going to happen.

 

 

Yelich will only get about one off day a month and they're not paying Cain $80 million over 4 years to sit once a week, at least not this year. Yelich will start 155 games and Cain 150.

 

Cain has played over 140 games just one in his career. Depth behind him is important.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Planned scenario, I'd pencil in Yelich for 145 starts and Cain for 135.

Thames can start 120 against RHP at 1st.

 

That's 42 starts at 1st for Braun and 42 for Santana already. If all Yelich's days off come against LHP than Perez gets 17 in left. Cain's 27 off would presumably be against RHP, Braun and Santana both get another 27 starts there bringing them up to 69, another 5 each at DH brings them up to 74, which would put them each around 120 if they split the remainder.

 

There's work to go around without putting Thames out to pasture. This is if every single one of these guys avoids the DL all year which isn't going to happen.

 

 

Yelich will only get about one off day a month and they're not paying Cain $80 million over 4 years to sit once a week, at least not this year. Yelich will start 155 games and Cain 150.

 

Cain has played over 140 games just one in his career. Depth behind him is important.

Cain has had some injury issues to be sure, but I think the point being made is that when healthy, he won't be sitting once a week.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I think the glut of OF and 1B depth that is apparent on this roster should afford the Brewers to give guys like Cain and Braun extra time off than they'd otherwise be getting. I'd rather have Cain get a designated game start off every ~1.5 weeks to try and stay fresh instead of just riding him until an injury forces a missed block of 15-20 games. It's one thing if the cupboard is bare from an OF production standpoint, but that's not the case with the Brewers at all.

 

The way the starting rotation and pen is currently set up, there will be alot of opportunities for guys not getting starts to get subbed into a game in the 5th or 6th inning as part of a double switch to give a reliever the best opportunity to go multiple innings without his spot coming up in the order. While not a full off day, letting Cain sit out a start and come in mid-game would bolster late inning OF defense and still give him at least 2ABs offensively - while reducing wear and tear of playing a full 9-inning game. Normally sitting a guy of his caliber if he's healthy wouldn't make sense at all - but this team could start a game with Braun - Yelich- Santana in the OF and still be potent offensively.