Rays acquire CJ Cron, designate Corey Dickerson

[McRibMcLove]

Why tank? The 2017 Astros, 2016 Cubs, and 2015 Royals (somewhat) and the 2008 Rays (almost) have some words for you. Correa, Kris Bryant, Bregman, Moustakas, etc.

 

And the those 4 teams were the only ones drafting in the top ten over a 5 year period? I wonder if the other teams just passed. At #2 the Seatlle Mariners pick .... "pass". The somewhat of the Royals is that none of their picks from 2010 to 2013 (All top 10) had anything to do with their world series team in 2015.

 

I simply believe it is a poor strategy to only approach team construction from 1 practice (look at the Packers under Thompson and how many years of a HOF QB were wasted in taking an almost fanatical approach to only building through the draft. Now look at the Super Bowl rings the New England patriots have because they took a balanced approach even though they drafted near the end of each round). In baseball, there are other teams who've had plenty of high draft positions and failed to turn them into success and there are plenty of teams drafting at the back end and have won multiple world series (Red Sox, Giants). The false assumption is that there's only 1 model to rebuild - tank for as long as your fan base will stomache. I think Sterns is of the mind that you acquire assets at a discount and keep adding them (through the draft, trade, FA, etc.) as long as the deal is beneficial. Would he like to have his 2016 Top 5 pick to do over again? right now, I would think yes, but so far he's done everything else almost perfectly without Tanking...

[McRibMcLove]

I don't mean to nitpick your post as it was well thought out, but the casual fans like Marlin Man simply aren't going to grasp the rebuild.

 

I think that's a pretty condescending remark. The guy has been through several rebuilds as a Marlins fan (and a World Series Win). He had 20 season tickets for the most expensive seats at the stadium for years and only reduced to 10 a short time ago. As the often crapped on "casual fan" he's pumped more money into his team than 100 "I'm smart and know how to build through sabermetrics" Fans who go to 10 games a year... Those casual fans who are consistently kicked around on this site as uneducated and stupid are the ones who pay for almost everything, because about 1% of the fan base understands advanced approaches to roster and team building and many of them can't pull their heads out of their internet connection to spend a dime on the team they support.

[bill hAll Star]

Why tank? The 2017 Astros, 2016 Cubs, and 2015 Royals (somewhat) and the 2008 Rays (almost) have some words for you. Correa, Kris Bryant, Bregman, Moustakas, etc.

 

And the those 4 teams were the only ones drafting in the top ten over a 5 year period? I wonder if the other teams just passed. At #2 the Seatlle Mariners pick .... "pass". The somewhat of the Royals is that none of their picks from 2010 to 2013 (All top 10) had anything to do with their world series team in 2015.

 

I simply believe it is a poor strategy to only approach team construction from 1 practice (look at the Packers under Thompson and how many years of a HOF QB were wasted in taking an almost fanatical approach to only building through the draft. Now look at the Super Bowl rings the New England patriots have because they took a balanced approach even though they drafted near the end of each round). In baseball, there are other teams who've had plenty of high draft positions and failed to turn them into success and there are plenty of teams drafting at the back end and have won multiple world series (Red Sox, Giants). The false assumption is that there's only 1 model to rebuild - tank for as long as your fan base will stomache. I think Sterns is of the mind that you acquire assets at a discount and keep adding them (through the draft, trade, FA, etc.) as long as the deal is beneficial. Would he like to have his 2016 Top 5 pick to do over again? right now, I would think yes, but so far he's done everything else almost perfectly without Tanking...

 

Thompson did build a great team through the draft. This debate could split off elsewhere, but somewhere in the 2014ish timeframe, the drafting started to fail and Thompson didn't adapt. I'll leave the Packer comparison at that.

 

There are only 3 ways to acquire players in baseball (most sports):

 

You're absolutely right that there is more than one way to rebuild. But saying "didn't work for some other teams!" is not great logic. It is clearly the best way to win (especially for a smaller market) in today's MLB. It comes with a pretty massive risk, though and I am not one that is chomping at the bit to do it.

 

The mixed approach is great but it usually involves trading away your best players/tanking/not signing immediate impact players to start your core team.

 

I think the problem here is with your suggestion of the panacea of the salary floor. Teams will still be bad. Teams not trying to tank will still "alienate their fans." Teams will tank in other ways because if you want a 5 year championship window, you absolutely do it through tanking or trading your franchise away for future players (which then breeds tanking).

 

I was not one asking Mark Attanasio to tank. I think Stearns is doing a great job. I'm happy with it. I do think that we now have an empty void of elite elite prospects to have a long window like the Cubs or Astros (the Cubs were able to supplement with higher payroll and the Astros likely will).

 

It's not even all about the draft picks. It's the idea that being worse now (i.e. trading someone such as Jonathan Lucroy or Carlos Gomez or Greinke) can help later. I don't really even care about the draft picks in that case. It helps, but the key is the prospects in return for those guys that have helped build the core of the current promising team. The Marlins took several lotto tickets for Gordon/Ozuna and the return on Stanton was not having to potentially pay a 34 year old RF $30 million dollars for several more years next time they're good.

[bill hAll Star]

I don't mean to nitpick your post as it was well thought out, but the casual fans like Marlin Man simply aren't going to grasp the rebuild.

 

I think that's a pretty condescending remark. The guy has been through several rebuilds as a Marlins fan (and a World Series Win). He had 20 season tickets for the most expensive seats at the stadium for years and only reduced to 10 a short time ago. As the often crapped on "casual fan" he's pumped more money into his team than 100 "I'm smart and know how to build through sabermetrics" Fans who go to 10 games a year... Those casual fans who are consistently kicked around on this site as uneducated and stupid are the ones who pay for almost everything, because about 1% of the fan base understands advanced approaches to roster and team building and many of them can't pull their heads out of their internet connection to spend a dime on the team they support.

 

You've followed up one condescending remark with another.

 

I'm not crapping on Marlins Man or the Door Man or whichever super fans that dump $25k into season tickets. That's a type of fandom that I don't have the financial means for nor the time on my hands for.

 

But there are a lot of people that cannot separate a long-term plan from one that is actively crushing the fanbase. If the Marlins continue to run a $55 million payroll for 5 years after this and trade away good players to save money in 2022, we can talk then.

 

The Marlins were not getting anywhere close to the playoffs this year. Jose Fernandez's death was a gigantic butterfly effect on that franchise. The clock ticks one year further to Ozuna, Yelich, Realmuto being gone or older and Stanton getting to the point of being old and overpaid. These moves will pay dividends down the road.

[NYChez]

It’s got to be a bitter pill to swallow for an average Rays’ fan that the Marlins received three top-100 prospects for their corner outfielder who hit .282 with 18 home runs, and the Rays will potentially receive nothing for their corner outfielder who hit .282 with 27 home runs.

[bill hAll Star]

It’s got to be a bitter pill to swallow for an average Rays’ fan that the Marlins received three top-100 prospects for their corner outfielder who hit .282 with 18 home runs, and the Rays will potentially receive nothing for their corner outfielder who hit .282 with 27 home runs.

 

Well, they're possibly still going to get something (small) for Dickerson, but that's a way to leave out a lot of relevant details.

[McRibMcLove]

Teams will still be bad.

 

Of course. If there was a required salary that teams had to be within 5% up or down, you would still have crappy teams. Some teams have a combination of bad luck, bad decisions, and poor decision making due to various reasons and that will lead to dramatically different outcomes even with the same spend. I am not advocating that somehow a floor will lead to parity, I am advocating a floor to at least try to achieve a minimum quality of product.

 

I was not one asking Mark Attanasio to tank. I think Stearns is doing a great job. I'm happy with it. I do think that we now have an empty void of elite elite prospects to have a long window like the Cubs or Astros (the Cubs were able to supplement with higher payroll and the Astros likely will).

 

I think the Elite prospect issue has been a problem for a few years even when the Brewers system was ranked highly the overall take was that it was driven by numbers of less than elite prospects. As you probably can guess, I wasn't a fan of the Corey Ray selection at the time and it basically was a blown opportunity to add that elite prospect (with a high pick). I still think we can find them farther down the draft, but wasting that pick is my only beef with the current rebuild. I do think we have some ability to compete through free agency, but a bad contract will hurt us far more than a large market team like the Astros and Cubs and the Brewers will likely have to overpay.

 

You've followed up one condescending remark with another.

 

Yep. Two wrongs don't make a right and I do apologize to all...

 

I have been reading Brewerfan for a few years and only started posting recently and the thing that makes this forum great is intelligent discussion (that I am trying to contribute to and not pick fights or attack others), but the biggest issue here is the elitism that creeps up all the time. Especially when denouncing the artificial creation of the "casual fan" as some neanderthal dragging their knuckles to game after game, breathing through their mouths and demanding outrageous things like the product on the field match the price paid for the ticket. I've never met a casual fan. I've met plenty of fans who aren't as emotionally tied into their team and I've met many who have no idea what a WAR is (other than taking on a Cubs fan at Miller Park...) but are just as supportive of their team as anyone I've seen posting here. I guess I'm asking that maybe it's not appropriate to demean a fan whose supported his team to a huge amount simply because he's pissed off that the new management has completely botched several trades and personnel decisions in the short period of time they've been in charge. If Attanasio did what Jeter & co did in the first few months of his ownership, I bet a ton of people on Brewerfan.net would have gathered up pitchforks to storm the castle. Might be they got the best deals they could, but the approach was horrible, absolutely horrible and I am not going to second guess pissed off Marlins fans. Putting up with years of Jeff Loria gets plenty of latitude in my book.

[bill hAll Star]

I'm not really trying to be some sort of elitist fan. Marlins Man is a great fan to the team. You don't have to be Bill James to be a fan of a team.

 

That said, sometimes a less-informed fan of the actual way a team is developed can not understand what's going on.

 

The media saw [not as rich] new owners step in and trade away franchise players. Even most national media is less informed on this matter. Most of the boilerplate writers do not follow the pitching prospects coming up in the Marlins system [none] and didn't step back and say, "how are the Marlins going to get into the playoffs?" They connected the dots and immediately blamed greedy profit ownership for the moves. And they aren't fully wrong. The new group will profit some. But all of that said, they'll be better for this in a few years rather than inevitably winning 75 games for the next 2-3 years and then tearing it down.

[bill hAll Star]

Dickerson has been traded to the Pirates for Daniel Hudson, Tristan Gray, and cash.

[KeithStone53151]

Dickerson has been traded to the Pirates for Daniel Hudson, Tristan Gray, and cash.

 

Daniel Hudson is a good get for Dickerson.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

Daniel Hudson is a good get for Dickerson.

 

Seems incredibly light to me. Maybe considering they DFA'd him, its better than nothing. But Hudson is not good. A WHIP around 1.4 the last three years. That's a lot of baserunners. No Thanks.

 

I hope this does not give an indication of what Santana's market is. Santana is the better hitter and has more years of control but still. I am underwhelmed by the return for Dickerson.