Rays acquire CJ Cron, designate Corey Dickerson

[KeithStone53151]

This would have been a great addition for us at a bargain bin price.

 

Tampa is having a full fire sale. I hope Stearns is working tonight because teams are going to get some great deals.

 

Are we sure they are having a fire sale? It made sense to me for them to move a starter to clear space for Honeywell.

[TJseven7]

Dickerson only costs 6 mil... wth? He's got to be on the move. Are they planning to replace him with cron for a 3.6 mil savings?

[TJseven7]

This would have been a great addition for us at a bargain bin price.

 

Tampa is having a full fire sale. I hope Stearns is working tonight because teams are going to get some great deals.

 

Are we sure they are having a fire sale? It made sense to me for them to move a starter to clear space for Honeywell.

 

Basically just sent Dickerson and Odorizzi for Cron a spot for honeywell and 9.9 mil savings...

[bill hAll Star]

Corey Dickerson’s career trajectory is the answer to “what if Carlos Gonzalez didn’t play basically his entire career in Colorado?”

[bill hAll Star]

Yeesh. If this is a reflection of Dickerson's value, no wonder we can't get anything decent for Santana.

 

The good thing is that Santana is a superior hitter.

[reillymcshane]

I can't imagine they couldn't trade Dickerson for anything. Weird. The guy had a 2.7 WAR last year. 27 HR, .282 BA, .815 OPS. That's pretty good. You'd think someone would have traded something for that.

 

Perhaps they have something set up.

[jerichoholicninja]

Dickerson First Half OPS - .903

Dickerson Second Half OPS - .690

 

His first month OPS was 1.015 and final month OPS was .596. His OPS each month was worse than the one before. The 2017 numbers look good because they were propped up by an amazing first 2 months.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Yeesh. If this is a reflection of Dickerson's value, no wonder we can't get anything decent for Santana.

 

The good thing is that Santana is a superior hitter.

 

And 3 years younger, along with being much cheaper.

[danzig6767]

Dickerson First Half OPS - .903

Dickerson Second Half OPS - .690

 

His first month OPS was 1.015 and final month OPS was .596. His OPS each month was worse than the one before. The 2017 numbers look good because they were propped up by an amazing first 2 months.

His first three months were good

 

1.015

.975

.827

 

Makes no sense to just DFA him given it's not like he was going to be super expensive. If this was a pure salary dump, stuff like this is why some people, big market teams, and the players union aren't exactly on board with expanded revenue sharing.

[bill hAll Star]

Dickerson First Half OPS - .903

Dickerson Second Half OPS - .690

 

His first month OPS was 1.015 and final month OPS was .596. His OPS each month was worse than the one before. The 2017 numbers look good because they were propped up by an amazing first 2 months.

His first three months were good

 

1.015

.975

.827

 

Makes no sense to just DFA him given it's not like he was going to be super expensive. If this was a pure salary dump, stuff like this is why some people, big market teams, and the players union aren't exactly on board with expanded revenue sharing.

 

I think Dickerson is worth having on a roster, but I can find 30 other guys that should be DFA’ed/cut that have put up numbers like that for a few months in the past decade. His numbers away from Coors and the rest of his TB numbers seem to suggest he will consistently have problems staying just over a .300 OBP.

 

I think they can still work out a trade to someone via the DFA based on who claims. Not 100% how that works in this case.

 

But yeah, point taken on the revenue sharing thing. Still should be under contract somewhere and the Rays will just sit on the cash.

[jerichoholicninja]

I wasn't trying to say he should have been DFA's but just pointing out that while his overall 2017 numbers look good, he was flat out awful in the second half.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Dickerson is probably an .800 OPS corner outfielder with subpar defense, going into his age 29 season. He's really easily replaceable, and he's not really cheap. He's not expensive (yet), but he's not cheap. He doesn't take walks, probably not a lot of room for growth in his offensive skill set.... so yeah, I can see why Tampa saw the state of the market this off-season and saw that it would just be easier to cut him loose than just hope they'd get a few pieces for him when they needed the roster spot now.

[trwi7]

Dickerson is probably an .800 OPS corner outfielder with subpar defense, going into his age 29 season. He's really easily replaceable, and he's not really cheap. He's not expensive (yet), but he's not cheap. He doesn't take walks, probably not a lot of room for growth in his offensive skill set.... so yeah, I can see why Tampa saw the state of the market this off-season and saw that it would just be easier to cut him loose than just hope they'd get a few pieces for him when they needed the roster spot now.

 

It'd be more understandable if they didn't trade for a worse version of Dickerson that only makes a few million less that led to his DFA.

[superfly]

Is this the Padres of a couple years ago all over again?

[brewcrewdue80]

Shaw of 2016? Dickerson doesn't deserve this for what he's paid. FGs value had him over 20mil last season and it was over 11 the season before. Averages out to around 15-16mil value a season. Some team will pick him up. How it's not a trade beats me.

[JosephC]

Dickerson is probably an .800 OPS corner outfielder with subpar defense, going into his age 29 season. He's really easily replaceable, and he's not really cheap. He's not expensive (yet), but he's not cheap. He doesn't take walks, probably not a lot of room for growth in his offensive skill set.... so yeah, I can see why Tampa saw the state of the market this off-season and saw that it would just be easier to cut him loose than just hope they'd get a few pieces for him when they needed the roster spot now.

 

Biggest question is why the Rays were so quick to open up a roster spot for C.J. Cron. Over the last three years Cron is a .263/.311/.448/.759 hitter which is way below the average first baseman slash line in 2017 (.265/.346/.487/.832). If anything, Cron is another questionable OBP hitter that doesn't slug nearly as well as Dickerson (3 year splits: Cron = .448, Dickerson = .489). Don't really buy their explanation that they needed Cron's right-handed bat to balance out the lineup. Souza bats right-handed, Duffy (likely third baseman) bats right-handed, second base job likely goes to Daniel Robertson and he bats right-handed, Heachvarria bats right-handed, Ramos bats right-handed, they traded for Christian Arroyo and he bats right-handed...even prior to Cron it appears that it was almost a guarantee that 5 of their 9 lineup spots were going to be occupied by right-handed bats. And to top it all off, Cron hits righties better than he hits lefties (over the last three years he's .270/.319/.460/.779 against righties but only .245/.287/.418.705 against lefties).

 

And despite the obvious attempt to save money, the Rays will end up eating about roughly 1 million dollars (1/6 of Dickerson's salary) if they end up releasing him after the 10 day window.

[NievesNoNO]

Confusing move. He'll end up traded I think. I'd think he'd get picked up by the first available team. He's not great but he certainly is worth a roster spot and really isn't overpaid for his production.

[McRibMcLove]

I think the experiment with Major League Baseball in Florida is over. It seems with what the Marlins have done and what the Rays do and just did that they are all but intentionally alienating their fan bases. To drive down attendance and revenue's further to argue baseball isn't sustainable in FL? Derek Jeter isn't that stupid and the Rays are not that strapped for cash...

[jerichoholicninja]

I think the experiment with Major League Baseball in Florida is over. It seems with what the Marlins have done and what the Rays do and just did that they are all but intentionally alienating their fan bases. To drive down attendance and revenue's further to argue baseball isn't sustainable in FL? Derek Jeter isn't that stupid and the Rays are not that strapped for cash...

 

So you're saying two organizations are pulling a "Major League"? I doubt it.

[bill hAll Star]

I think the experiment with Major League Baseball in Florida is over. It seems with what the Marlins have done and what the Rays do and just did that they are all but intentionally alienating their fan bases. To drive down attendance and revenue's further to argue baseball isn't sustainable in FL? Derek Jeter isn't that stupid and the Rays are not that strapped for cash...

 

This Rays move barely moves the needle as to how much they'll miss the playoffs by, but is a greedy owner cash grab, probably. It probably still helps them in the long run if they're just giving up and tanking.

 

The Marlins' move can be written off as alienating their fans, but they're going to be better for it in the long run. People can debate the return for Ozuna & Gordon, but I think the Marlins are probably going to be a good team in 5 years. Had they stayed the course, I'm guessing they'd have missed the playoffs anyways for the next 3 years and then have crashed horrifically with Stanton's contract getting worse (and still on the books).

 

The crappy thing about so many people realizing that if your goal is a championship that you might as well tank is that it creates even more latitude for owners to bank some revenue sharing (and you know they will), but it is really hard to tell without a very long lens and a view into the books that we'll never get whether or not they're going to pay the money forward down the line.

 

Going a level further, the focus will shift a bit with so many teams deciding to tear it down. The market will correct again and being one of 12 teams tanking in a given season may not be as wise as it once seemed.

[McRibMcLove]

The crappy thing about so many people realizing that if your goal is a championship that you might as well tank is that it creates even more latitude for owners to bank some revenue sharing (and you know they will), but it is really hard to tell without a very long lens and a view into the books that we'll never get whether or not they're going to pay the money forward down the line.

 

Going a level further, the focus will shift a bit with so many teams deciding to tear it down. The market will correct again and being one of 12 teams tanking in a given season may not be as wise as it once seemed.

I agree with most of your post. I believe part of the problem with both franchises in FL is that they are taking the small market Athletics approach to building a team, but with the intention of making money over any other objective. I actually think the A's and Beane do everything they can to put the best team they can, given their budget, onto the field. Building a loyal fan base - even if its small. I think the Marlins are not focusing on putting the best team on the field, but making the most money with the lowest payroll, while selling the fans that they are building a team for the future. And the Marlins may believe that, but the leaked memo from the Marlins makes it clear that they are focusing on profit.

 

Why Tank? Baseball has a ton of examples where elite players were not drafted in the top half of the first round. So drafting at the top isn't a prerequisite for building a winning team (the brewers drafting in the top ten for many years only really netted 2 playoff teams). So there is really not a great argument that you have to tank to maximize your ability to rebuild through the draft. Order is less relevant than being smart. So teams taking the tanking approach are going to field the same questions as the "marlin's man" (season ticket holder since 1993 with 20 tickets, then 10) when he said why should he renew for 2018 to watch "AAA" baseball. Putting together the cheapest team possible is going to hurt revenues when fans say enough is enough, I won't pay major league prices when you deliver a minor league product. Ultimately, as it's clear in attendance and revenues from the Marlins and Rays, fans will stay away until the team is competitive again and that only feeds the need to cut costs. There's a medium ground where teams can rebuild and still attempt to put together a competitive team (each year there are plenty of FA available for small salaries that are price effective) and as the bolded statement points out, there is no guarantee ownership will use profit from previous years to improve product on the field in the future.

 

I firmly believe a payroll floor/minimum is needed to guarantee teams are delivering a quality product to their fans. The Marlins even claimed they couldn't reduce 2018 ticket prices because the previous ownership had already set the prices before the team was sold... Really? You have to be a superior level of stupid to think that one will fly with the fans. The owners (with the face of Derek Jeter) are trying to convince fans that they are building a winner for the future, but yes you need to pay a lot for minor league play. And what teams reduce ticket prices when they tank? None. They just deliver crap product and hope the loyalty of the fans prevents them from abandoning the team and if they do, not for long. It appears that both the Marlins and Rays have chosen the scorched earth approach to baseball. Cut payroll to the bare minimum, hope revenues exceed their costs and hope they hit it with some of their prospects so the team can be competitive at some point in the near future so revenues will go up before payroll, then cut payroll before revenues drop. If somehow they luck out and get the right mix of players they may have a playoff run now and then. But as the bolded part of the quote indicates, it will be hard to see if ownership ever take profit from lean years and use it to supplement a playoff push. Right now, in my opinion, major league baseball is dead in florida - the fans of both franchises are demoralized, the teams are bare-bones cheap, the product on the field is barely major league (Rays) or definitely not (Marlins), both franchises have inherent structural issues to revenues and they both are caught in a catch 22 cycle of cut, cut, cut and hope.

[bill hAll Star]

Why Tank? Baseball has a ton of examples where elite players were not drafted in the top half of the first round. So drafting at the top isn't a prerequisite for building a winning team (the brewers drafting in the top ten for many years only really netted 2 playoff teams). So there is really not a great argument that you have to tank to maximize your ability to rebuild through the draft. Order is less relevant than being smart. So teams taking the tanking approach are going to field the same questions as the "marlin's man" (season ticket holder since 1993 with 20 tickets, then 10) when he said why should he renew for 2018 to watch "AAA" baseball. Putting together the cheapest team possible is going to hurt revenues when fans say enough is enough, I won't pay major league prices when you deliver a minor league product. Ultimately, as it's clear in attendance and revenues from the Marlins and Rays, fans will stay away until the team is competitive again and that only feeds the need to cut costs. There's a medium ground where teams can rebuild and still attempt to put together a competitive team (each year there are plenty of FA available for small salaries that are price effective) and as the bolded statement points out, there is no guarantee ownership will use profit from previous years to improve product on the field in the future.

 

Why tank? The 2017 Astros, 2016 Cubs, and 2015 Royals (somewhat) and the 2008 Rays (almost) have some words for you. Correa, Kris Bryant, Bregman, Moustakas, etc.

 

You also get that pick in every single round which is key. The Packers have not only been hurt by drafting 25th-32nd the past 8 years in the first round...but every single round.

 

The Brewers only made the playoffs twice because of somewhat botched management once they got their competitive core. They didn't do the pitching aspect right. Drafting that high for so many years netted the majority of the Brewers' franchise players in Weeks, Sheets, Fielder, Braun, LaPorta (stand-in for CC). I am not really even talking about Suppan, Wolf, etc. If the owner wants to pay $ for average pitching with a trash farm system, I'm OK with that. They just were not able to have enough depth and/or elite pitching. Maybe not getting Suppan would've helped that effort, but since they missed on drafting more pitching, the options were to pay for an ace in free agency (not happening in Milwaukee) or take leaps of faith on doing something like Fielder for a young stud pitcher in 2007 (also very dangerous).

 

How else would the Brewers' have been playoff contenders for ~5 years without those guys? Trading non-elite prospects? Building the majority of their team through free agency? Wouldn't have happened. The Brewers simply didn't luck into enough pitching or manage that aspect well enough to be more consistent.

 

The question is what "the cheapest team possible" brings. For Attanasio, I truly believe he'll pay most of it forward.

 

Will the Marlins and Rays do that? Remains to be seen. I actually do think that even though Jeter's group A.) shouldn't have been allowed to buy the team and B.) are being douches right now will eventually be fielding a competitive team. There's no reason to play for 78 wins with no pitching and a huge payroll as they currently were doing. Build for 2022. They'll spend money then. Or if they don't do that, they'll at least have a competitive, young team where they can win for 4-5 years and maybe be shrewd enough to trade that competitive team for another competitive team (somewhat referencing your A's model, but hopefully with a slightly larger budget).

 

I think if the Marlins and Rays build good teams 3, 4, 5 years from now, that ownership will boost spending. Will it be equal to what they saved right now? With the Rays, I doubt it. With the Marlins it may be close.

[bill hAll Star]

Also (and maybe the rest of this conversation needs to move to "the financial state of baseball" thread) regarding a salary floor: Sure, they should probably implement it.

 

However, it's a "grass is always greener" thing. There still have to be terrible teams.

 

Guys like Marlins Man are, yes, paying season ticket holders but no, are not sitting there on Cot's baseball contracts and reading up on Baseball America's top prospect lists. I get that season ticket holders don't want to watch the Marlins try to squeeze some sort of trade value out of Martin Prado and work Lewis Brinson in while playing a bunch of scrubs, but is it really that much better long-term than watching Giancarlo Stanton smack 55 homers while they win 76 games with absolutely no pitching?

 

The Marlins probably are still at what the salary floor would be and were way over it. The only way out of the box for the Marlins was to trade their remaining prospects for pitching or to further sign themselves into a potential cap hell by signing Jake Arrieta or some similar move.

 

I watched the Milwaukee Bucks for a long, long time. I watched Herb Kohl spend a bunch of money to be mediocre every year and end up being terrible for a large chunk of them. Marlins Man would've been dancing and celebrating that the Bucks traded draft picks for Stephen Jackson to try their never-ending quest for the 8 seed. There'd be a bunch of moves like that. There were a string of moves that made me walk away from the Bucks and never come back even though they lucked into a superstar.

 

I think a salary floor would help, I'm just saying there'd still be just as many terrible teams...some would still find ways to tank, others would just try to placate their fans and unintentionally open a 10 year window of mediocrity.

[KeithStone53151]

Guys like Marlins Man are, yes, paying season ticket holders but no, are not sitting there on Cot's baseball contracts and reading up on Baseball America's top prospect lists. I get that season ticket holders don't want to watch the Marlins try to squeeze some sort of trade value out of Martin Prado and work Lewis Brinson in while playing a bunch of scrubs, but is it really that much better long-term than watching Giancarlo Stanton smack 55 homers while they win 76 games with absolutely no pitching?

 

I don't mean to nitpick your post as it was well thought out, but the casual fans like Marlin Man simply aren't going to grasp the rebuild. They think right now, they are better off with Stanton and Yelich and those high powered offenses than they'll be on the tail end of a rebuild with a young talented core or cheap players, good pitching, and money to spend(all theoretically). They'll be happy when that day comes, but until they can actually see it happening and see the good baseball...the casual fans will flock to other sports/entertainment and complain about Jeter and his tactics.

[bill hAll Star]

Guys like Marlins Man are, yes, paying season ticket holders but no, are not sitting there on Cot's baseball contracts and reading up on Baseball America's top prospect lists. I get that season ticket holders don't want to watch the Marlins try to squeeze some sort of trade value out of Martin Prado and work Lewis Brinson in while playing a bunch of scrubs, but is it really that much better long-term than watching Giancarlo Stanton smack 55 homers while they win 76 games with absolutely no pitching?

 

I don't mean to nitpick your post as it was well thought out, but the casual fans like Marlin Man simply aren't going to grasp the rebuild. They think right now, they are better off with Stanton and Yelich and those high powered offenses than they'll be on the tail end of a rebuild with a young talented core or cheap players, good pitching, and money to spend(all theoretically). They'll be happy when that day comes, but until they can actually see it happening and see the good baseball...the casual fans will flock to other sports/entertainment and complain about Jeter and his tactics.

 

Yeah, not sure if I articulated it well enough, but that's pretty much what I was saying. Guys like him don't really see the forest through the trees (and maybe don't even care).