Lucroy

[brewcrewdue80]

If Colorado wants nothing to do with him, I want him nowhere near here. They have Chris freakin ianetta and two guys I've never heard of behind him.

 

Tom Murphy was around 50-60 I believe prospect rank. Kinda on the rise a bit of hype. But he stumbled out the gate, got injured and got put on the back burner for 17. He's basically good Lucroy comp projection playing at Coors.

[adambr2]

It's probably worth a shot at this point. Don't see a better way to spend that money and his contract won't be long enough to compromise any future options. However, Vogt is a little better against RHP's for his career (a .752 mostly in Oakland is much better than a .764 mostly in Milwaukee with a few months in Colorado), and the difference on defense is apparently not even that significant anymore. It's probably not a needle-mover. I could see Lucroy getting a 1-year make-good deal and bouncing back.

 

Wish Pina had an option.

 

I can't imagine not even having Pina on the 25 after a very nice rookie season anyway. That seems downright insulting.

[pacopete4]

Vogt has the knees of Jake Taylor and throws like Rube Baker. Pina shouldn't be going anywhere. If we get the opportunity to get Luc at a great deal, awesome, go do it and make Pina your #2 that plays a bit more than a #2. You would solidify that catching position for this year and you hope that Luc and Pina can be a great duo for the next couple of seasons.

[coolhandluke121]

It's probably worth a shot at this point. Don't see a better way to spend that money and his contract won't be long enough to compromise any future options. However, Vogt is a little better against RHP's for his career (a .752 mostly in Oakland is much better than a .764 mostly in Milwaukee with a few months in Colorado), and the difference on defense is apparently not even that significant anymore. It's probably not a needle-mover. I could see Lucroy getting a 1-year make-good deal and bouncing back.

 

Wish Pina had an option.

 

I can't imagine not even having Pina on the 25 after a very nice rookie season anyway. That seems downright insulting.

 

You can't imagine him not regressing? Okay. A lot of people here seem to think whatever a player did last year is more important than what they did in about a decade in the minor leagues, and if that's your premise, nobody's ever going to convince you otherwise.

[pacopete4]

It's probably worth a shot at this point. Don't see a better way to spend that money and his contract won't be long enough to compromise any future options. However, Vogt is a little better against RHP's for his career (a .752 mostly in Oakland is much better than a .764 mostly in Milwaukee with a few months in Colorado), and the difference on defense is apparently not even that significant anymore. It's probably not a needle-mover. I could see Lucroy getting a 1-year make-good deal and bouncing back.

 

Wish Pina had an option.

 

I can't imagine not even having Pina on the 25 after a very nice rookie season anyway. That seems downright insulting.

 

You can't imagine him not regressing? Okay. A lot of people here seem to think whatever a player did last year is more important than what they did in about a decade in the minor leagues, and if that's your premise, nobody's ever going to convince you otherwise.

In your original post, you don't even mention Pina, let alone him being a regression candidate. And even if you believe that, how does putting him in the minor leagues again a viable way to see if he is or not? At some point, you have to see what you have in these players. Even if he is a regression candidate offensively, does that mean he is defensively as well? I think adambr2 has a very valid point that it would not be a great look for the Brewers to toss a guy in the minors after the season he had last year. Now, bringing in someone like Lucroy or whoever to compete with Pina for playing time is a completely different story.

 

For how worried you are about regression with the Brewers players, you sure seem to think a team like the Cubs won't have any if they are winning 110 games this season.

[coolhandluke121]

 

I can't imagine not even having Pina on the 25 after a very nice rookie season anyway. That seems downright insulting.

 

You can't imagine him not regressing? Okay. A lot of people here seem to think whatever a player did last year is more important than what they did in about a decade in the minor leagues, and if that's your premise, nobody's ever going to convince you otherwise.

Dude, you really are not coming off well at times around here.

 

I think it's fair to take exception to the statement that my idea is insulting. Pina is not at all a safe bet to be a good player next year and is probably the quintessential back-up catcher in the long run. He's also almost as old as Lucroy and has a good deal of mileage.

 

If you're going to compete, you absolutely need 3 reliable catchers on the 40 if one of them is Vogt and the other one is already over 30. Pina was effective last year but they paid his salary and that's all they owe him for what he did last year. Their job is to field the best possible team this year and going into the year with Pina/Vogt is a threat to be this year's unexpected (but arguably should have been expected) black hole, like 2b was last year.

[coolhandluke121]

For how worried you are about regression with the Brewers players, you sure seem to think a team like the Cubs won't have any if they are winning 110 games this season.

 

Suggesting that I predicted 110 wins for the Cubs is getting obnoxious. I said they "could", as in it's obviously at the high end of what they might be capable of.

[adambr2]

I agree with Brew. You come off at times as extremely defensive over nothing. All I was saying is that Pina performed very well for us when given the opportunity at the MLB level and deserves a role on this team, not in AAA.

 

Then you jumped on that and concluded that I was saying Pina couldn't regress and his minor league history was unimportant compared to what he did last year, neither of which I said.

 

With that said I do put a lot more stock into Pina's much more impressive recent minor league history compared to what he was doing 5-6 years ago, and a number of baseball writers predicted before 2017 that Pina could surprise as a breakout candidate even as an older rookie.

[coolhandluke121]

I agree with Brew. You come off at times as extremely defensive over nothing. All I was saying is that Pina performed very well for us when given the opportunity at the MLB level and deserves a role on this team, not in AAA.

 

 

Here's the thing, majority opinions are dangerous because they tend to silence dissent and belittle minority opinions in very subtle ways that kill dialogue, sometimes without even knowing it. Calling "I wish Pina had an option" an insulting idea is probably in that category. It's likely to be a majority opinion here because we are all Brewer fans and in any sport, there's a strong tendency to overrate your own team's players a little.

 

Similar stuff happened with Aguilar debates. There were many minimally-veiled jabs at the suggestion that Aguilar is just a AAAA guy, even though there's an abundance of evidence to back it up. Things like "how anybody could suggest Aguilar could be waived after the year he had is beyond comprehension" and stuff like that. And when someone holding the minority opinion jabs back, they're held to a different standard because the majority gets to define the terms of the debate. They can just ignore it (or not even realize it) when they do it themselves while calling others out for similar stuff.

 

This is not just sports, but life. It happens all the time.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Guys. Reminder for everyone. Debate the topic. Agree to disagree. Keep the personal attacks and jabs out of it. Understand that people will disagree with your opinions. Cool? Cool.

[adambr2]

I agree with Brew. You come off at times as extremely defensive over nothing. All I was saying is that Pina performed very well for us when given the opportunity at the MLB level and deserves a role on this team, not in AAA.

 

 

Here's the thing, majority opinions are dangerous because they tend to silence dissent and belittle minority opinions in very subtle ways that kill dialogue, sometimes without even knowing it. Calling "I wish Pina had an option" an insulting idea is probably in that category. It's likely to be a majority opinion here because we are all Brewer fans and in any sport, there's a strong tendency to overrate your own team's players a little.

 

Similar stuff happened with Aguilar debates. There were many minimally-veiled jabs at the suggestion that Aguilar is just a AAAA guy, even though there's an abundance of evidence to back it up. Things like "how anybody could suggest Aguilar could be waived after the year he had is beyond comprehension" and stuff like that. And when someone holding the minority opinion jabs back, they're held to a different standard because the majority gets to define the terms of the debate. They can just ignore it (or not even realize it) when they do it themselves while calling others out for similar stuff.

 

This is not just sports, but life. It happens all the time.

 

Calling a potential demotion for Pina 'insulting' is not done to silence or belittle. It's exactly what I think of it. I think there are times you need to reward performance, even as risk of a regression. I think it sends a very poor message to demote a player to AAA after the rookie season he had. Although yes it is a business I don't even think you can justify it as a business decision as there's no way in my mind that Pina wouldn't be an excellent backup catcher at the very minimum especially with how strong he is defensively.

 

If you disagree, than I would kindly ask you to explain why rather than put words in my mouth and saying you'll never change my mind about assertions that I never made.

[coolhandluke121]

 

 

 

If you disagree, than I would kindly ask you to explain why rather than put words in my mouth and saying you'll never change my mind about assertions that I never made.

 

Because Lucroy and Vogt are both former 2-time all-stars who cover both sides of the plate and have a much longer track record of success than Pina, who's not even that much younger than them anyway. They also both hit very well for their respective teams when traded to a contender last season, so they might still have a pretty good year or two left. And because Bandy is the 3rd catcher, which doesn't bode well for a team pursuing the playoffs with a 33 and (very soon-to-be) 31 year old catcher.

 

I'm not that attached to it either way, but if Lucroy turns out to be a bargain and Pina had an option, I would love for them to be opportunistic and grab him. That would be incredible good fortune IMO if it were possible.

 

It's a moot point because Pina doesn't have an option, but HH did say they're looking for a serviceable catcher so I think they're worried about the same thing I am, and rightfully so.

 

ETA: Vogt actually doesn't have that much mileage, either. Less than 600 pro games at catcher. Pina has well over 1000. That matters a lot for anticipating age-related decline because of the demands of the position.

[pacopete4]

If another catcher (Lucroy) were to be signed, Vogt would be the one on his way out and I'm not even sure it is questionable. They have Bandy on the 40-man as their 3rd catcher that can fill in for short stints if need be.

[Outlander]

An option wouldn't really matter with Pina because if the Brewers wanted an upgrade at the position they would just keep the cheap backup in Pina. If they want to pick up a serviceable catcher to be a backup then Pina is going to be the main starter. There isn't a scenario where an option comes into play unless Pina really struggled the first couple months of 2018 but that doesn't impact opening day and how the roster will be constructed to start the year. How a player performed the previous year does matter, especially when they can get production out of a minimum wage player.

[coolhandluke121]

If another catcher (Lucroy) were to be signed, Vogt would be the one on his way out and I'm not even sure it is questionable. They have Bandy on the 40-man as their 3rd catcher that can fill in for short stints if need be.

 

Of course. It was a hypothetical "if Pina had an option", but he doesn't. I do think it would be debatable if he did though. Vogt has been a good hitter before and was effective for the Brewers last year. Being a strict platoon bat should help, as he hasn't always had that benefit in his career.

 

ETA: Disagree adamantly about Bandy being able to fill in at an adequate level for short stints, and there's a decent chance they'll need a good deal more than a few short stints from their 3rd catcher.

[pacopete4]

McCalvy tweets quote on catching situation.

Manny's on the team. That's where we're at," Counsell said. "Stephen, we brought him back, signed him to a contract, but I think he's got something to prove, and that will be apart of his camp. [Jett Bandy being out of options] factors into it. I think we signed Stephen with the idea that we're going to see if -- look, the defense is important for Stephen. We have to see what that looks like."

[tmwiese55]

This argument essentially comes to Vogt vs Pina. One guy got cut last year because he'd been bad for a while and is terrible on defense at one of the most important defensive position. The other played great D with a great arm while hitting at a respectable clip consistently all year. I know which one I'd roll with and it's not very close. The only thing Vogt has going is being lefty but in a platoon like this you're going to have a closer to 50/50 thing going on more than a strict right lefty since you're not going to play Vogt every game vs rightys because he's just not good enough.

 

But even if you do think it's a close call I think this should be the deciding point. If Lucroy got hurt for an extended stretch, which one could play the normal C level of starts of 66-75% of games. That answer is Pina.

 

And this comes from someone who repeatedly defended Vogt at the end of last year over the constant bashing of his arm by people who acted like we're just going to give 11 stolen bases per game.

[bill hAll Star]

This argument essentially comes to Vogt vs Pina. One guy got cut last year because he'd been bad for a while and is terrible on defense at one of the most important defensive position. The other played great D with a great arm while hitting at a respectable clip consistently all year. I know which one I'd roll with and it's not very close. The only thing Vogt has going is being lefty but in a platoon like this you're going to have a closer to 50/50 thing going on more than a strict right lefty since you're not going to play Vogt every game vs rightys because he's just not good enough.

 

But even if you do think it's a close call I think this should be the deciding point. If Lucroy got hurt for an extended stretch, which one could play the normal C level of starts of 66-75% of games. That answer is Pina.

 

Vogt has a track record of being a pretty good hitter and it is possible that his numbers looked worse in Oakland.

 

I'm not disagreeing that I'm a fan of Pina and he should be the guy. Plays good defense, but I'm more confident in Vogt's bat than I am Pina's. I'm OK with rolling with the platoon where Pina is still the primary guy but Vogt's days that he gets off are against RHP.

[pacopete4]

This argument essentially comes to Vogt vs Pina. One guy got cut last year because he'd been bad for a while and is terrible on defense at one of the most important defensive position. The other played great D with a great arm while hitting at a respectable clip consistently all year. I know which one I'd roll with and it's not very close. The only thing Vogt has going is being lefty but in a platoon like this you're going to have a closer to 50/50 thing going on more than a strict right lefty since you're not going to play Vogt every game vs rightys because he's just not good enough.

 

But even if you do think it's a close call I think this should be the deciding point. If Lucroy got hurt for an extended stretch, which one could play the normal C level of starts of 66-75% of games. That answer is Pina.

 

Vogt has a track record of being a pretty good hitter and it is possible that his numbers looked worse in Oakland.

 

I'm not disagreeing that I'm a fan of Pina and he should be the guy. Plays good defense, but I'm more confident in Vogt's bat than I am Pina's. I'm OK with rolling with the platoon where Pina is still the primary guy but Vogt's days that he gets off are against RHP.

From the sounds of it by Counsell, Vogt is going to have to prove that he can play some better defense than he displayed last season. And he should. It was downright awful watching him back there. Not Susac bad, but just bad.

[3and2Fastball]

Lucroy was really good in the WBC last year, and while granted it was just one game he was awesome in the playoffs in 2017. He is still much much better than Vogt. He'd improve the Brewers.

 

From the outside looking in, he seems like he has attitude issues. If that is just my biased perception, and there is nothing about him that would disrupt team chemistry, there is (to me) zero reasons why we shouldn't sign him

[tmwiese55]

To Bill hall's post: That's true and I guess I'd generally agree if I had to pick one purely on hitting this year. But just quickly looking at Vogt he's really only had one good year (unlike a Luc with years before his poor 2017) and his eyeball test his body looks really beat up like he moves like an old player, which he is. I know Pina isn't much younger, but he just looks so much fresher/quicker/spry or whatever you want to call it and obviously that's important for D and likelihood of staying healthy all year.

[Jopal78]

I don't see Lucroy ever coming back. The prior regime rebuffed his overtures of extending him into his mid 30's. The new regime,

must have arrived at the same conclusion as Melvin and Co., because they traded him away before his contract was even up (implying his value would never be higher).

 

Beyond that, his statistics outside of Coors Field in 2017 simply are not good. The Brewers also have a history of handing out multi-year deals to aging catchers (Damian Miller and Jason Kendall) in their 30s with poor results.

 

If Bandy outplays Vogt in camp, Vogt will likely be designated for assignment. However, given that Bandy didn't play much down the stretch after Vogt was acquired, the Brewers are most likely biding their time to see if a player they've identified as more valuable than either Vogt or Bandy becomes available prior to the start of the year.

[bill hAll Star]

From the sounds of it by Counsell, Vogt is going to have to prove that he can play some better defense than he displayed last season. And he should. It was downright awful watching him back there. Not Susac bad, but just bad.

 

Yeah, and that's fine. I'm just addressing the bat expectations. Vogt is a really bad defender and if he is still that bad, then I would trust the team's decision to go with someone else.

[adambr2]

 

 

 

If you disagree, than I would kindly ask you to explain why rather than put words in my mouth and saying you'll never change my mind about assertions that I never made.

 

Because Lucroy and Vogt are both former 2-time all-stars who cover both sides of the plate and have a much longer track record of success than Pina, who's not even that much younger than them anyway. They also both hit very well for their respective teams when traded to a contender last season, so they might still have a pretty good year or two left. And because Bandy is the 3rd catcher, which doesn't bode well for a team pursuing the playoffs with a 33 and (very soon-to-be) 31 year old catcher.

 

I'm not that attached to it either way, but if Lucroy turns out to be a bargain and Pina had an option, I would love for them to be opportunistic and grab him. That would be incredible good fortune IMO if it were possible.

 

It's a moot point because Pina doesn't have an option, but HH did say they're looking for a serviceable catcher so I think they're worried about the same thing I am, and rightfully so.

 

ETA: Vogt actually doesn't have that much mileage, either. Less than 600 pro games at catcher. Pina has well over 1000. That matters a lot for anticipating age-related decline because of the demands of the position.

 

 

Vogt wasn't traded last year. He regressed to the point of being DFAed. He was rated by both Baseball Reference and Fangraphs as literally being below AAA replacement level last year. He also has far more defensive holes in his game, despite the longer track record. That's something you definitely don't want in a backup catcher.

[Oldcity]

 

If you're going to compete, you absolutely need 3 reliable catchers on the 40 if one of them is Vogt and the other one is already over 30.

 

Backup catchers are not difficult to acquire mid-season. The Brewers got Vogt for nothing last year.