Trade for “Lesser Pitcher” (Jharel Cotton / Jake Odorizzi)

[pacopete4]

 

The Nationals at least had a shot at the world series last year - they were in the playoffs. If I recall correctly, we didn't make the playoffs and the reason why isbecause our rotation was in tatters. As it stands now, we are in the exact same boat as the end of last year - except with Chacin who is a 4 at best and Gallardo who is years removed from being even decent.

 

You don’t remember correctly. Our offense was really to blame for missing the playoffs in the second half and Stearns cheap approach to the bullpen created losses in the first half. Our starters were really good a year ago. Top 10 good.

[Dadbauer]

 

The Nationals at least had a shot at the world series last year - they were in the playoffs. If I recall correctly, we didn't make the playoffs and the reason why isbecause our rotation was in tatters. As it stands now, we are in the exact same boat as the end of last year - except with Chacin who is a 4 at best and Gallardo who is years removed from being even decent.

 

You don’t remember correctly. Our offense was really to blame for missing the playoffs in the second half and Stearns cheap approach to the bullpen created losses in the first half. Our starters were really good a year ago. Top 10 good.

 

There were a LOT of factors for missing out, my bad for saying SP was the only one - but starting Jeremy Jeffress and Anderson on three days rest and bullpen day every 3rd start certainly didn't help us out.

 

And I agree, Stearns did have a cheap approach to the bullpen last year - and we suffered. Let's hope he doesn't have the same approach with our rotation this year.

[adambr2]

Yep, it was the offense. Who is why the Brewers look like they may be changing offensive philosophies and why Yelich and Cain were big acquisitions.

 

The bullpen post-Hader was actually very good as well.

 

They may be thinking that Chacin added to a group of Anderson Davies, and Nelson in June, may be good enough, and it's possible to think one of Woodruff, Burnes or Ortiz may be a big contributor as well. It's a reasonable thought process. It would have been good enough last year if the offense hasn't tanked.

[SRB]

This is exactly what I want them to do. Pass on the free agents, and pass on emptying the farm for an Archer or Stroman. This is also exactly what they did when they acquired Chase Anderson and Zach Davies (and what the Cubs did when they got Arrieta).

 

Brewers aren't going anywhere with a rotation full of 3's and 4's. Anderson has been good but it took him a while to get there. Davies can be inconsistent. If you want to compete you need proven starters. IF they can get to the playoffs, they will get shellacked.

 

If Stearns is going after Cotton it's probably because he thinks Cotton can be a top of the rotation pitcher 3+ years from now.

[Eye Black]

The Nationals at least had a shot at the world series last year - they were in the playoffs. If I recall correctly, we didn't make the playoffs and the reason why isbecause our rotation was in tatters. As it stands now, we are in the exact same boat as the end of last year - except with Chacin who is a 4 at best and Gallardo who is years removed from being even decent.

 

No, this is why:

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting/split/182

Not picking on Dadbauer here because I have noticed multiple cases where someone has referenced the Brewers pitching woes last year. If someone could guarantee me that Brewers pitching would perform exactly the same as last year I think I would take it in a heartbeat.

[adambr2]

This is exactly what I want them to do. Pass on the free agents, and pass on emptying the farm for an Archer or Stroman. This is also exactly what they did when they acquired Chase Anderson and Zach Davies (and what the Cubs did when they got Arrieta).

 

Brewers aren't going anywhere with a rotation full of 3's and 4's. Anderson has been good but it took him a while to get there. Davies can be inconsistent. If you want to compete you need proven starters. IF they can get to the playoffs, they will get shellacked.

 

If Stearns is going after Cotton it's probably because he thinks Cotton can be a top of the rotation pitcher 3+ years from now.

 

Yep. Nelson didn't have great results his first year either, or even in 2016. Cotton just turned 26 and has about a year under his belt at the MLB level. He was a top 100 prospect -- I won't pretend to know why he struggled last year but it isn't necessarily because he can't be a good MLB pitcher. I just would only pay clearance rack price at this point.

[Dadbauer]

The thing is, yes they were good last year, but it was a bunch of guys who were not as good in the past having great years. Is it possible that they having taken a step forward and will not regress? Yes. But when you have the resources that we do, you BOLSTER a good rotation with more good pitchers. I can't be the only one who is not content going into the season as is in the SP department.

[adambr2]

The thing is, yes they were good last year, but it was a bunch of guys who were not as good in the past having great years. Is it possible that they having taken a step forward and will not regress? Yes. But when you have the resources that we do, you BOLSTER a good rotation with more good pitchers. I can't be the only one who is not content going into the season as is in the SP department.

 

Davies has been really consistent from year to year as far as season results. Anderson has been a sub 3 ERA pitcher the last season and a half and completely revamped his mechanics and added velocity last year.

 

Nelson's emergence was the real deal last year, although I'm probably most concerned about him given his return from shoulder surgery. But I do think we have an underrated top 3.

[brewmann04]

Cotton does not impress me at all and no way just for Santana

[ougiqbxy]

Cotton does not impress me at all and no way just for Santana

 

 

I did ask this earlier in the thread and it seems like it's fairly close to a good trade....

 

How about Cotton and Puk for Santana?

[nate82]

 

The Nationals at least had a shot at the world series last year - they were in the playoffs. If I recall correctly, we didn't make the playoffs and the reason why isbecause our rotation was in tatters. As it stands now, we are in the exact same boat as the end of last year - except with Chacin who is a 4 at best and Gallardo who is years removed from being even decent.

 

 

Again you are incorrect. It wasn't because of the rotation that the Brewers missed the playoffs last year it was because of the offense. The offense fell off a cliff a few times last year and the Brewers as a whole only had a WRC+ of 93. No team in the modern era has had a WRC+ lower than 98 win a world series. Majority of playoff teams have had a WRC+ of about 100 and there usually very few teams that make it who are below that mark.

 

The worst xFIP to win the World Series for starters belongs to the Royals at 4.48. A staff of nothing but #3 pitchers has about the same chance as a team with multiple #1's to win in the playoffs. The Nationals didn't make it to the World Series again last year they only made the playoffs and were beat by a team that didn't really have a #1 type pitcher. The Cubs pitching staff last year was a bunch of #2's and 3's that beat a staff that has an ace and an almost ace.

[Dadbauer]

 

The Nationals at least had a shot at the world series last year - they were in the playoffs. If I recall correctly, we didn't make the playoffs and the reason why isbecause our rotation was in tatters. As it stands now, we are in the exact same boat as the end of last year - except with Chacin who is a 4 at best and Gallardo who is years removed from being even decent.

 

 

Again you are incorrect. It wasn't because of the rotation that the Brewers missed the playoffs last year it was because of the offense. The offense fell off a cliff a few times last year and the Brewers as a whole only had a WRC+ of 93. No team in the modern era has had a WRC+ lower than 98 win a world series. Majority of playoff teams have had a WRC+ of about 100 and there usually very few teams that make it who are below that mark.

 

The worst xFIP to win the World Series for starters belongs to the Royals at 4.48. A staff of nothing but #3 pitchers has about the same chance as a team with multiple #1's to win in the playoffs. The Nationals didn't make it to the World Series again last year they only made the playoffs and were beat by a team that didn't really have a #1 type pitcher. The Cubs pitching staff last year was a bunch of #2's and 3's that beat a staff that has an ace and an almost ace.

 

 

Yes, the offense was a big factor that the Brewers didn't get into the playoffs as a whole, but down the stretch they suffered big time by not having a consistent rotation. They missed by ONE game, and maybe if they didn't have to start guys like Guerra, Jeremy Jeffress, and Aaron Wilkerson they could have done it. I'm not saying the Pitching right now is terrible, what I am saying is we have the resources to improve - we should take major steps to do it. The outfield was decent last year too - and we took a major step forward to improve it. We can do the same with pitching rather than recycling the same guys and "lesser" guys.

[KeithStone53151]

This is exactly what I want them to do. Pass on the free agents, and pass on emptying the farm for an Archer or Stroman. This is also exactly what they did when they acquired Chase Anderson and Zach Davies (and what the Cubs did when they got Arrieta).

 

Brewers aren't going anywhere with a rotation full of 3's and 4's. Anderson has been good but it took him a while to get there. Davies can be inconsistent. If you want to compete you need proven starters. IF they can get to the playoffs, they will get shellacked.

 

I think we'll have opportunities at high end arms at the deadline. Also hopefully Burnes/Nelson will be options for a late season push. Also, we have the makings of a very strong bullpen...we could do fine in the playoffs with solid SP and a shutdown bullpen(see KC Royals). We do need to add one arm though. It's obviously less than ideal having a Guerra/Gallardo/Suter in the 5th spot of the rotation, but it further taxes our early season depth. I think Cobb or Salazar will be the answer for the Brewers, probably Salazar.

[pacopete4]

 

The Nationals at least had a shot at the world series last year - they were in the playoffs. If I recall correctly, we didn't make the playoffs and the reason why isbecause our rotation was in tatters. As it stands now, we are in the exact same boat as the end of last year - except with Chacin who is a 4 at best and Gallardo who is years removed from being even decent.

 

 

Again you are incorrect. It wasn't because of the rotation that the Brewers missed the playoffs last year it was because of the offense. The offense fell off a cliff a few times last year and the Brewers as a whole only had a WRC+ of 93. No team in the modern era has had a WRC+ lower than 98 win a world series. Majority of playoff teams have had a WRC+ of about 100 and there usually very few teams that make it who are below that mark.

 

The worst xFIP to win the World Series for starters belongs to the Royals at 4.48. A staff of nothing but #3 pitchers has about the same chance as a team with multiple #1's to win in the playoffs. The Nationals didn't make it to the World Series again last year they only made the playoffs and were beat by a team that didn't really have a #1 type pitcher. The Cubs pitching staff last year was a bunch of #2's and 3's that beat a staff that has an ace and an almost ace.

 

 

Yes, the offense was a big factor that the Brewers didn't get into the playoffs as a whole, but down the stretch they suffered big time by not having a consistent rotation. They missed by ONE game, and maybe if they didn't have to start guys like Guerra, Jeremy Jeffress, and Aaron Wilkerson they could have done it. I'm not saying the Pitching right now is terrible, what I am saying is we have the resources to improve - we should take major steps to do it. The outfield was decent last year too - and we took a major step forward to improve it. We can do the same with pitching rather than recycling the same guys and "lesser" guys.

They went 16-12 down the stretch.

[MrTPlush]

 

The Nationals at least had a shot at the world series last year - they were in the playoffs. If I recall correctly, we didn't make the playoffs and the reason why isbecause our rotation was in tatters. As it stands now, we are in the exact same boat as the end of last year - except with Chacin who is a 4 at best and Gallardo who is years removed from being even decent.

 

 

Again you are incorrect. It wasn't because of the rotation that the Brewers missed the playoffs last year it was because of the offense. The offense fell off a cliff a few times last year and the Brewers as a whole only had a WRC+ of 93. No team in the modern era has had a WRC+ lower than 98 win a world series. Majority of playoff teams have had a WRC+ of about 100 and there usually very few teams that make it who are below that mark.

 

The worst xFIP to win the World Series for starters belongs to the Royals at 4.48. A staff of nothing but #3 pitchers has about the same chance as a team with multiple #1's to win in the playoffs. The Nationals didn't make it to the World Series again last year they only made the playoffs and were beat by a team that didn't really have a #1 type pitcher. The Cubs pitching staff last year was a bunch of #2's and 3's that beat a staff that has an ace and an almost ace.

 

 

Yes, the offense was a big factor that the Brewers didn't get into the playoffs as a whole, but down the stretch they suffered big time by not having a consistent rotation. They missed by ONE game, and maybe if they didn't have to start guys like Guerra, Jeremy Jeffress, and Aaron Wilkerson they could have done it. I'm not saying the Pitching right now is terrible, what I am saying is we have the resources to improve - we should take major steps to do it. The outfield was decent last year too - and we took a major step forward to improve it. We can do the same with pitching rather than recycling the same guys and "lesser" guys.

 

Once again it just isn't true. Their entire pitching staff was #5 in all of baseball in September. And August we were #7. Pitching was not the problem.

 

It also seems a lot of people want to wait it out for the deadline or until Nelson is back. Ok fair enough, but then again we want to blame our inability to make the playoffs last year on Neftali Feliz being in our pen etc. to start the year. Waiting months to fix something is going to cost your games. That is a big deal when everything will come down to a few games come October.

[nate82]

 

 

 

Yes, the offense was a big factor that the Brewers didn't get into the playoffs as a whole, but down the stretch they suffered big time by not having a consistent rotation. They missed by ONE game, and maybe if they didn't have to start guys like Guerra, Jeremy Jeffress, and Aaron Wilkerson they could have done it. I'm not saying the Pitching right now is terrible, what I am saying is we have the resources to improve - we should take major steps to do it. The outfield was decent last year too - and we took a major step forward to improve it. We can do the same with pitching rather than recycling the same guys and "lesser" guys.

 

For the last two months of the season the Brewers were averaging about 2-runs a game. It is remarkable that the rotation the Brewers had that they only lost by 1-game. When your offense is only scoring about 2-runs a game it doesn't matter who your starting pitchers are you are not going to win many games. The offense was the culprit not the starting pitchers down the stretch.

 

Improving the pitching doesn't really move the needle all that much for the Brewers at least the starting pitching is not going to move as much as Cain and Yelich have. Unless you are adding Kershaw to the rotation the needle is not going to move all that much in terms of win expectancy. Adding Cain and Yelich moves the needle further even adding just Cain would move it more than adding someone like Archer.

 

The cost of adding someone like Archer is going to outweigh the win benefits that you are trying to add. The better add is to add someone like Odorizzi or someone similar. Your win expectancy of acquiring someone like Odorizzi versus someone like Archer is not all that far off while the cost to add someone like Archer is far more than it is to add someone like Odorizzi.

 

The future value of the prospects that you are giving up for Odorizzi is going to be far less than what you will have to give up to get Archer. Unless you can get Archer at a cheaper price than what the Rays are currently asking for it just isn't worth it right now to go after Archer. Odorizzi and players like him are just a better addition cost wise than a top of the rotation pitcher will be.

 

I would prefer the Brewers just hold right now and wait until the deadline. There will probably be better pitchers available at the deadline than there are now. Stroman and others will be available come the deadline who will cost less than what the Rays are asking for now for Archer.

[KeithStone53151]

I wonder if he gets it yet. While yes, we should look to add, the starters weren’t the problem a year ago.

 

We did have an issue at the end of last year with starting pitching. Less of quality, more due to injury we have guys running on fumes. This year will be very different with Chacin signed and Burnes/Nelson able to make contributions later in the season. Adding another quality starter will be that much added depth.

[superfly]

I'd be a very unhappy individual if we only got Cotton for Santana. Mortgaging the farm for Archer would look brilliant compared to that Bubba Derby/Nottingham-esque return for Santana.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I'd be a very unhappy individual if we only got Cotton for Santana. Mortgaging the farm for Archer would look brilliant compared to that Bubba Derby/Nottingham-esque return for Santana.

 

Yep, there's no way I'd trade Santana for Cotton, unless the A's included another good/great piece. Franklin Barreto would look great at 2B, and he's MLB-ready. Jorge Mateo would be a nice pickup as well.

 

Now, if you're talking Broxton for Cotton, that's the kind of move I could get behind.

[Boomer5]

I'd be a very unhappy individual if we only got Cotton for Santana. Mortgaging the farm for Archer would look brilliant compared to that Bubba Derby/Nottingham-esque return for Santana.

 

Yep, there's no way I'd trade Santana for Cotton, unless the A's included another good/great piece. Franklin Barreto would look great at 2B, and he's MLB-ready. Jorge Mateo would be a nice pickup as well.

 

Now, if you're talking Broxton for Cotton, that's the kind of move I could get behind.

 

Absolutely. Cotton is a Broxton type trade, not a Santana type. The As might not think that but to give up Santana for just Cotton would be nuts especially if the goal is to win big in 2018.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I'd be a very unhappy individual if we only got Cotton for Santana. Mortgaging the farm for Archer would look brilliant compared to that Bubba Derby/Nottingham-esque return for Santana.

 

Yep, there's no way I'd trade Santana for Cotton, unless the A's included another good/great piece. Franklin Barreto would look great at 2B, and he's MLB-ready. Jorge Mateo would be a nice pickup as well.

 

Now, if you're talking Broxton for Cotton, that's the kind of move I could get behind.

 

Absolutely. Cotton is a Broxton type trade, not a Santana type. The As might not think that but to give up Santana for just Cotton would be nuts especially if the goal is to win big in 2018.

 

And the A's need a CF. Unfortunately this appears to be one of those deals that "makes too much sense." That's why it won't likely happen.

 

I'm intrigued by Cotton, though. He's not a big guy, but has good stuff, and is a former Top 100 prospect. I'd like to see what Johnson could do with him. If anything, he'd be a solid pen option.

 

If they want Santana, I think they better give up Sean Manaea or Kendall Graveman.

[MadThinker88]

Guess I am missing it as I review this thread. Who suggested it would be Cotton for D Santana??

 

I have seen Puk AND Cotton for D Santana being raised as a question (wondering if the Crew needed to add anything else).

I see people suggest Cotton is the return for Broxten or items from the minors.

 

Can't find anyone that suggested the idea of a 1 for 1. Only multiple people saying they would be upset if it was a 1 for 1.

[NOMAAM]

Guess I am missing it as I review this thread. Who suggested it would be Cotton for D Santana??

 

I have seen Puk AND Cotton for D Santana being raised as a question (wondering if the Crew needed to add anything else).

I see people suggest Cotton is the return for Broxten or items from the minors.

 

Can't find anyone that suggested the idea of a 1 for 1. Only multiple people saying they would be upset if it was a 1 for 1.

 

I think posted originally if Cotton was part of a package for Santana. Maybe folks misread that.

[MadThinker88]

Thx NoMaam.

Anything is possible..

[JohnBriggs12]

This is exactly what I want them to do. Pass on the free agents, and pass on emptying the farm for an Archer or Stroman. This is also exactly what they did when they acquired Chase Anderson and Zach Davies (and what the Cubs did when they got Arrieta).

 

When the Cubs acquired Arrieta they were in the midst of their tank. Same goes for Davies and Anderson for the Brewers. Dealing for Cotton might mean using Burnes in another deal.