FA Pitchers

[pacopete4]

It's sad to me that people are talking themselves into Gallardo and Miley being in a rotation of a team seriously trying to make the playoffs.

It's sad to me that you feel the need to make these sort of comments towards people who have a different line of thinking than yourself.

 

Nationals:

-Tanner Roark made 30 starts for the Nationals and posted a mid 4 era with a 1.3+ WHIP.

-Joe Ross and Edwin Jackson combined for 26 starts for the Nationals over a 5 ERA and a 1.4+ WHIP.

 

Twins:

-Kyle Gibson made 29 starts for the Twins with an ERA above 5 and a 1.5+ WHIP.

-Bartolo Colon and Hector Santiago made a combined 29 starts for the Twins to post a mid 5 ERA and a 1.4+ WHIP.

 

Yankees:

-Marishiro Tanaka made 30 starts and posted a high 4 ERA which a WHIP above 1.3

-They also had a collection of other pitchers, including Jamie Garcia, who was just flat out not good.

 

Cubs:

-Lester and Lackey a season ago were not great. High 4 ERA's and WHIPS around 1.3. They were considered their #1 and #3 pitchers going into the season.

 

 

Wade Miley(31) and Gallardo(32) were not good the past two seasons but they have shown throughout their careers to be good pitchers. If Johnson feels as though there is a correction to be had with them and he can get them more towards their career stat lines, they will do just fine for us. Another reason it would be great for these guys to do well is that it shoves our depth of pitchers down a peg. It allows us to bring up quality guys if/when injuries do happen. Another poster stated that the Astros go in knowing they will use 9-10 starters during the season. Hopefully, that is something Stearns brought over with him because we will need it most likely.

 

1. Anderson

2. Davies

3. Chacin

4. Guerra

5. Miley

 

and then a mix of Woodruff, Gallardo, Suter, Burnes, Nelson(when healthy), Wilkerson all ready to go if/when injury strikes to our rotation or some guy just flat out stinks. It's a solid list of 10-11 pitchers ready to go. And we haven't even got to roster cutdown day yet where there may be an arm or two out there for the pickings.

[82brewcrew82]

I think it's a bad thing. That isn't an impressive group, even as depth. If Woodruff and Suter were the next men up behind a better starting 5 I could agree. As is, no.

 

True, the last couple years don't inspire much confidence in Miley and Gallardo, but those two do have a track record of once being good starting pitchers. Perhaps they'll never find "it" again, but at least there is a history of an "it" there to potentially be found. Same thing with Guerra, who was great in 2016 but is now basically an afterthought.

 

I agree with you completely that they could use another good starting pitcher. I think our disagreement stems from me believing that the cupboard is pretty well stocked, while you believe it isn't. Fair enough. I guess my question to you, then, is what would make you happy? Cobb? Arrieta? Both?

If there is an "IT" to potentially be found in that group then we have to apply the same logic to Arietta and Cobb, no? You can't move the intellectual goal posts and apply that logic to one group and not the other. Andy if you do that, I don't know how you come away thinking that Arietta and Cobb don't have a significantly better chance of achieving "it", whatever that might be.

 

I'm not hung up on anyone pitcher but there is simply no question that adding an Arietta and a Cobb to this roster puts them squarely in the divisional hunt. We can argue all day about the cost of those acquisitions, but in and of themselves, they make the team significantly better.

 

Is the cupboard bare, for a team with playoff aspirations, yeah I think it is. The rotation is weaker than pretty much every team that considers itself a contender and I'd guess almost none of them have pitchers the caliber of Gallardo and Miley seriously auditioning for starting roles in two rotation spots.

[82brewcrew82]

Wade Miley is a perfectly fine back-end starter on a team with playoff aspirations. His 3-year average WAR between the 3 main versions is 1.3. He's a lefty who throws 91-93 with sink who had an off year in 2017, just like basically every other starting pitcher on the team he was on did. The level of hate he gets on here is pretty bizarre.

He was pretty bad in '16 as well. He looks like he is in pretty steep decline at this point. I don't hate the guy, I just wish he were a bit further down the pecking order.

[tmwiese55]

While I don't want to get into the year with either of them in the rotation do keep in mind we were playoff contenders last year with Garza.

 

Still, if this Miley mechanics change is legit it wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened in baseball, far from it. Gallardo on the other hand just seems done to me. I'm not sure how Woodruff is looking so far but I sure hope one of the last spots would be his though since he has the long term upside and all that going for him.

 

I still think we'll end up with one of the FA SPs though.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Wade Miley is a perfectly fine back-end starter on a team with playoff aspirations. His 3-year average WAR between the 3 main versions is 1.3. He's a lefty who throws 91-93 with sink who had an off year in 2017, just like basically every other starting pitcher on the team he was on did. The level of hate he gets on here is pretty bizarre.

He was pretty bad in '16 as well. He looks like he is in pretty steep decline at this point. I don't hate the guy, I just wish he were a bit further down the pecking order.

 

No one knows what the pecking order is. Miley is on a minor league deal, which to me would indicate he's below Gallardo, Guerra, Woodruff, Suter and possibly even Wilkerson in the pecking order. It certainly is possible he could pitch well enough in spring training to move up that pecking order, and he certainly hasn't done anything to disappoint so far, much to my and many others' chagrin around here. And at the end of the day, if he pitches well enough to pass all those guys up, it's a good thing for the Brewers. But if he doesn't, and is gifted a rotation spot anyway because of "veteranness", "grittyness" "left-handedness" or any other tired baseball cliche, I'll be mad.

[Boomer5]

Miley is definitely not a pitcher you'd put in the rotation if you're serious. 1.7 Whip? Yikes. Look at his walks. He would be the new fan favorite whipping boy if he makes more than 5 starts.

 

Maybe DJ thinks he can give him better control with some work but that doesn't seem super likely.

[And That]

He was pretty bad in '16 as well.

He was about a 1 WAR pitcher by both Fangraphs and BPro measurements in 2016. Certainly not world beating but again, just fine for a back-end starter.

 

As for "steep decline" - going by his Brooks Baseball data, Miley hasn't experienced a decline in stuff at all. Velocity is about the same as it's been, and if anything part of his command issues with breaking stuff in the recent past may have stemmed from the fact that he's been throwing his slider too hard. The good news is, command is a lot more fixable than a decline in velocity.

[tmwiese55]

I think the key to Miley is that they would be viewing him as a totally new pitcher vs what he was the last few years. It's not like they'd be planning on trotting out the same guy hoping for different results, they will have to see this change is legit and sustainable. Heck, it worked pretty well with Anderson.

[pacopete4]

I think the key to Miley is that they would be viewing him as a totally new pitcher vs what he was the last few years. It's not like they'd be planning on trotting out the same guy hoping for different results, they will have to see this change is legit and sustainable. Heck, it worked pretty well with Anderson.

 

Maybe we have our pitching coach guru in Johnson like the Cards had for a while. Maybe we get to be that frustration organization for others for a while. We definitely are due.

[And That]

It's not like they'd be planning on trotting out the same guy hoping for different results, they will have to see this change is legit and sustainable. Heck, it worked pretty well with Anderson.

Exactly. So much baseball analysis is backward-looking - as if the Brewers are not cognizant of the fact that Miley had command issues last season.

 

The Brewers aren't playing that game here. They see a very talented pitcher who has had issues commanding. They have a talented pitching coach who thinks he can find some success with Miley due to altered mechanics and better pitch sequencing. They signed Miley to a minor league deal. If Miley finds what he had a couple of years ago, the Brewers get one of the better free agent bargains. If he doesn't, there's no real loss.

[monkeyman343434]

It's sad to me that people are talking themselves into Gallardo and Miley being in a rotation of a team seriously trying to make the playoffs.

It's sad to me that you feel the need to make these sort of comments towards people who have a different line of thinking than yourself.

 

Nationals:

-Tanner Roark made 30 starts for the Nationals and posted a mid 4 era with a 1.3+ WHIP.

-Joe Ross and Edwin Jackson combined for 26 starts for the Nationals over a 5 ERA and a 1.4+ WHIP.

 

Twins:

-Kyle Gibson made 29 starts for the Twins with an ERA above 5 and a 1.5+ WHIP.

-Bartolo Colon and Hector Santiago made a combined 29 starts for the Twins to post a mid 5 ERA and a 1.4+ WHIP.

 

Yankees:

-Marishiro Tanaka made 30 starts and posted a high 4 ERA which a WHIP above 1.3

-They also had a collection of other pitchers, including Jamie Garcia, who was just flat out not good.

 

Cubs:

-Lester and Lackey a season ago were not great. High 4 ERA's and WHIPS around 1.3. They were considered their #1 and #3 pitchers going into the season.

 

 

Wade Miley(31) and Gallardo(32) were not good the past two seasons but they have shown throughout their careers to be good pitchers. If Johnson feels as though there is a correction to be had with them and he can get them more towards their career stat lines, they will do just fine for us. Another reason it would be great for these guys to do well is that it shoves our depth of pitchers down a peg. It allows us to bring up quality guys if/when injuries do happen. Another poster stated that the Astros go in knowing they will use 9-10 starters during the season. Hopefully, that is something Stearns brought over with him because we will need it most likely.

 

1. Anderson

2. Davies

3. Chacin

4. Guerra

5. Miley

 

and then a mix of Woodruff, Gallardo, Suter, Burnes, Nelson(when healthy), Wilkerson all ready to go if/when injury strikes to our rotation or some guy just flat out stinks. It's a solid list of 10-11 pitchers ready to go. And we haven't even got to roster cutdown day yet where there may be an arm or two out there for the pickings.

 

The difference is the Nationals have Strasburg and Scherzer, the Yankees have Severino and a ridiculously loaded bullpen, the Cubs had Arrieta, Quintana, and Hendricks. The Brewers don't have those types of aces or that stacked of a bullpen to get away with such a bad #5 starter and hopes that '18 Jimmy post-injury looks like '17 Jimmy.

[82brewcrew82]

He was pretty bad in '16 as well.

He was about a 1 WAR pitcher by both Fangraphs and BPro measurements in 2016. Certainly not world beating but again, just fine for a back-end starter.

 

As for "steep decline" - going by his Brooks Baseball data, Miley hasn't experienced a decline in stuff at all. Velocity is about the same as it's been, and if anything part of his command issues with breaking stuff in the recent past may have stemmed from the fact that he's been throwing his slider too hard. The good news is, command is a lot more fixable than a decline in velocity.

I get what your saying but you don't get awarded wins based on stuff. As for the things that do get you victories, like getting outs, he's been pretty bad and declining.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

He was pretty bad in '16 as well.

He was about a 1 WAR pitcher by both Fangraphs and BPro measurements in 2016. Certainly not world beating but again, just fine for a back-end starter.

 

As for "steep decline" - going by his Brooks Baseball data, Miley hasn't experienced a decline in stuff at all. Velocity is about the same as it's been, and if anything part of his command issues with breaking stuff in the recent past may have stemmed from the fact that he's been throwing his slider too hard. The good news is, command is a lot more fixable than a decline in velocity.

I get what your saying but you don't get awarded wins based on stuff. As for the things that do get you victories, like getting outs, he's been pretty bad and declining.

 

That is why if he sucks, he won't be pitching for the Brewers. But if he doesn't, he'll have the chance. It isn't like he's locked in for $10 million this season. He hasn't been given anything, and if he's in the rotation, it means he earned it, and passed up quite a few guys in doing so.

[82brewcrew82]

It's sad to me that people are talking themselves into Gallardo and Miley being in a rotation of a team seriously trying to make the playoffs.

It's sad to me that you feel the need to make these sort of comments towards people who have a different line of thinking than yourself.

 

Nationals:

-Tanner Roark made 30 starts for the Nationals and posted a mid 4 era with a 1.3+ WHIP.

-Joe Ross and Edwin Jackson combined for 26 starts for the Nationals over a 5 ERA and a 1.4+ WHIP.

 

Twins:

-Kyle Gibson made 29 starts for the Twins with an ERA above 5 and a 1.5+ WHIP.

-Bartolo Colon and Hector Santiago made a combined 29 starts for the Twins to post a mid 5 ERA and a 1.4+ WHIP.

 

Yankees:

-Marishiro Tanaka made 30 starts and posted a high 4 ERA which a WHIP above 1.3

-They also had a collection of other pitchers, including Jamie Garcia, who was just flat out not good.

 

Cubs:

-Lester and Lackey a season ago were not great. High 4 ERA's and WHIPS around 1.3. They were considered their #1 and #3 pitchers going into the season.

 

 

Wade Miley(31) and Gallardo(32) were not good the past two seasons but they have shown throughout their careers to be good pitchers. If Johnson feels as though there is a correction to be had with them and he can get them more towards their career stat lines, they will do just fine for us. Another reason it would be great for these guys to do well is that it shoves our depth of pitchers down a peg. It allows us to bring up quality guys if/when injuries do happen. Another poster stated that the Astros go in knowing they will use 9-10 starters during the season. Hopefully, that is something Stearns brought over with him because we will need it most likely.

 

1. Anderson

2. Davies

3. Chacin

4. Guerra

5. Miley

 

and then a mix of Woodruff, Gallardo, Suter, Burnes, Nelson(when healthy), Wilkerson all ready to go if/when injury strikes to our rotation or some guy just flat out stinks. It's a solid list of 10-11 pitchers ready to go. And we haven't even got to roster cutdown day yet where there may be an arm or two out there for the pickings.

 

The difference is the Nationals have Strasburg and Scherzer, the Yankees have Severino and a ridiculously loaded bullpen, the Cubs had Arrieta, Quintana, and Hendricks. The Brewers don't have those types of aces or that stacked of a bullpen to get away with such a bad #5 starter and hopes that '18 Jimmy post-injury looks like '17 Jimmy.

Give me the front end of pretty much any one of those teams and I'd gladly take Miley as my 5. In fact, I would take many of the pitchers you called our over Miley in a heartbeat.

[pacopete4]

The whole point of the post wasn't to see who you would take over Miley. I don't really care to be honest with you because we all have different opinions of what a #4 and #5 starter really is in this league. Too messy to even dive into. It was to show that most rotation have turds in it and they can still win. There are just so many factors involved in winning. Heck, no one saw us have a top 5-10 starting staff last season and hey, look what occurred. This whole the "sky is falling" bit is just not the case for our situation at all.

[bill hAll Star]

The whole point of the post wasn't to see who you would take over Miley. I don't really care to be honest with you because we all have different opinions of what a #4 and #5 starter really is in this league. Too messy to even dive into. It was to show that most rotation have turds in it and they can still win. This whole the "sky is falling" bit is just not the case for our situation at all.

 

Lackey bordered on turd but I'd have a lot more confidence in many of the other guys you listed than Miley or Gallardo. I'm confident that the Brewers saw something in Miley so I think he was a nice risky pickup that maybe could turn into a swingman or could find something in the bullpen if not, but in a hand-wavy way, I'd expect many of the bottom rotation guys you listed to be around a 4 ERA and I think Miley/Gallardo could be more in the 5 range, potentially 6 (in which case, we'd be going to minor league options).

[82brewcrew82]

That is why if he sucks, he won't be pitching for the Brewers. But if he doesn't, he'll have the chance. It isn't like he's locked in for $10 million this season. He hasn't been given anything, and if he's in the rotation, it means he earned it, and passed up quite a few guys in doing so.

You don't know that, they did it last year. I'm not arguing the value of the signing or the ease with which he can be discarded. I'm questioning him being a primary option for the rotation. I reject the notion that he climbed his way over other players. I think they singed him with the intention of starting him. I'm not anti-Miley, I just wish he was the seventh or eighth option, not the fourth or fifth.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

You don't know that, they did it last year. I'm not arguing the value of the signing or the ease with which he can be discarded. I'm questioning him being a primary option for the rotation. I reject the notion that he climbed his way over other players. I think they singed him with the intention of starting him. I'm not anti-Miley, I just wish he was the seventh or eighth option, not the fourth or fifth.

 

You are making several assumptions there. All seemingly to fit your justification for being mad that the team for putting Miley in the rotation ... a guy signed to a minor league deal who would need to jump over several players on major league contracts to do so.

 

It's March 5, but it seems like you've already got your mind made up that you're going to hate this team.

[pacopete4]

If Miley does jump those other guys, doesn't that tell us a bit about these other guys we are clamoring for to be in our rotation?

[82brewcrew82]

The whole point of the post wasn't to see who you would take over Miley. I don't really care to be honest with you because we all have different opinions of what a #4 and #5 starter really is in this league. Too messy to even dive into. It was to show that most rotation have turds in it and they can still win. There are just so many factors involved in winning. Heck, no one saw us have a top 5-10 starting staff last season and hey, look what occurred. This whole the "sky is falling" bit is just not the case for our situation at all.

This notion that someone thinks the sky is falling is a strawman if your directing it to me. I don't believe the sky is falling and I've said all along they are a fringe playoff team. Whether Miley starts out in the rotation or not doesn't change that for me. I do think there is pitching available that would take them from fringe to favorite and wouldn't be all upset if that meant Miley started in the minors. The whole "hey, we done good with garbage last year so it should be good this year" theory does nothing for me, especially when the "turds" on the other team may be significantly better than some of our top three. We don't have Nelson so bringing up last year is a bit apples and oranges. He made that rotation work.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

If Miley does jump those other guys, doesn't that tell us a bit about these other guys we are clamoring for to be in our rotation?

 

Exactly, but hopefully it's not that they all suck, and he's the least sucky.

 

In a perfect world, it tells us that Miley is effective enough to be there.

[Boomer5]

Until the 3 FA pitchers sign, it really isn't worth the energy to get worked up over starting guys like Miley or Yo.

 

The Brewers will be adding to their rotation. They didn't give up 5 prospects and $80 million so they could be in the hunt for the 5th WC.

[brewmann04]

Until the 3 FA pitchers sign, it really isn't worth the energy to get worked up over starting guys like Miley or Yo.

 

The Brewers will be adding to their rotation. They didn't give up 5 prospects and $80 million so they could be in the hunt for the 5th WC.

 

 

Spot on totally agree

[82brewcrew82]

You don't know that, they did it last year. I'm not arguing the value of the signing or the ease with which he can be discarded. I'm questioning him being a primary option for the rotation. I reject the notion that he climbed his way over other players. I think they singed him with the intention of starting him. I'm not anti-Miley, I just wish he was the seventh or eighth option, not the fourth or fifth.

 

You are making several assumptions there. All seemingly to fit your justification for being mad that the team for putting Miley in the rotation ... a guy signed to a minor league deal who would need to jump over several players on major league contracts to do so.

 

It's March 5, but it seems like you've already got your mind made up that you're going to hate this team.

My assumption was in response to your assumption that he had to climb over players. What exactly is it that leads you to think I'm mad (or are you making an assumption). You have a long history of telling me what my feelings/emotions are and I really wish you'd stop acting as though you know me. I don't hate this team in the least. I am pointing out a potentially serious weakness with this team. When you start resorting to telling me how I feel about this team tells me I hit a nerve and I'm probably not all that far off. Who are all the major league contract guys? Gallardo but the rest of that group is minor league and team controlled players. He isn't jumping anyone.

[82brewcrew82]

If Miley does jump those other guys, doesn't that tell us a bit about these other guys we are clamoring for to be in our rotation?

What does it tell us, that they all suck? That is pretty much my point and you've nailed it perfectly. I don't believe they all suck, I don't even believe Miley sucks.........if given the right role.