What is a "Top of Rotation" starter?

[homer]

Curious how people here define this term.

[JCREW]

One of the best 30 pitchers in MLB.

[McRibMcLove]

I think its having a pitcher who matches up well with any other #1 in the playoffs so one of the top 12 pitchers in all of baseball.

[young guns]

My definition would be a 1 or 2 on a playoff team. Reason i go with 2 is because most 2s would be 1s on many teams.

[pacopete4]

Jimmy Nelson, Chase Anderson

[brewcrewdue80]

Ive thought someone who goes over 200ip with under 3.36ERA. The IP is an avg put out for 33GS. As I know immediately that 200+ IP will be fought on how many reach that. Kershaw last 2 seasons?

 

Now Bb/9 matter. I dont want a 200 IP starter who occasionally goes 7IP but usually 6. I think a TOR is someone who post 8&CG starts a handful of times total in a year. Its what kept Yo from achieving this moniker.

 

Something like that. You hand the ball to him and 0runs-1runs given up comes to mind over a guy that gives up 2-4 consistently.

[MVP2110]

An ace IMO is a top 30 pitcher in baseball. a TOR is a top 60 pitcher in baseball.

[markedman5]

No way there are 30 aces......that's the Brian Anderson definition....lol

[MVP2110]

No way there are 30 aces......that's the Brian Anderson definition....lol

 

IMO an "ace" is the same thing as saying someone is a #1 pitcher. By definition with 30 teams that means there are 30 #1 pitchers.

[NievesNoNO]

180-200 IP, 3.5 ERA, K/9 around 9.

[MrTPlush]

No way there are 30 aces......that's the Brian Anderson definition....lol

 

IMO an "ace" is the same thing as saying someone is a #1 pitcher. By definition with 30 teams that means there are 30 #1 pitchers.

 

There is such a steep drop off from the top going towards #30 at some point though. IMO those guys have to be seperated by definition of "ace".

[JCREW]

An ace IMO is a top 30 pitcher in baseball. a TOR is a top 60 pitcher in baseball.

 

So is there a different word that you use to describe the Kershaws and Klubers of the game?

[MVP2110]

An ace IMO is a top 30 pitcher in baseball. a TOR is a top 60 pitcher in baseball.

 

So is there a different word that you use to describe the Kershaws and Klubers of the game?

 

Nothing specific other than maybe elite.

 

IMO if you say there are 150 SP's in MLB at a given time. IMO

 

the top 30 are 1's or aces, the next 30 are 2's or TOR pitchers, 61-90 are #3's, etc.

[brewcrewdue80]

Probably list two handfuls as Aces with a Handful Ace type pitchers on a great yeat for them. Top of Rotation become #1.5 types. Chase and Jimmy were both #1.5 ToR quality starters. But like some of thpse handful of Aces that normally arent, Chase and Jimmy werent 1.5s/ToR expectations/viewed as previously. Starting out 2 months in of the same quality could change that perception but at this point you're still seeing #3 projections for them.

 

I think perception is best for ToR calling. Nelson takes the ball tonight and it should be a win. That perception. If youre OD starter/2nd start pitcher you should likely face OD/#2 starting SPs for the opposing teams. How are you perceiving vs other ToR type pitchers? (Not the Aces)

 

Its like my post above, Is their guy going to likely hold us to 1-2runs and ours giving up 3-4? Or will ours be the 1-2 and theirs the 3-4?

[MadThinker88]

Thought I would share and spur some discussion.

I started with the following definitions for ACE & then for TOR. I felt they would be quantifiable & measurable.

 

An Ace is a starter that has finished in the top 4 places for the CY Young voting over the past 3 seasons. Assuming nobody repeats that is a max of 24 pitchers (across both leagues). Realizing there will always be repeat individuals, I'm guessing the number is closer to 14 total.

 

A TOR is a starter that has finished in either the 5 thru 9 spots for CY Young voting over the past 3 seasons (but never in the top 4 spots). Assuming nobody repeats that is a max of 30 pitchers (across both leagues). Realizing there will always be repeat individuals and some will be top 4 in other seasons, I'm guessing the number is closer to 16 for this level. Hence I'm guessing we end up with roughly 30 top starters.

 

 

 

Now for the validation/ measuring of the above thoughts. Using the years 2015, 2016 & 2017 I found the following:

I got the voting results from the BBWAA website. https://bbwaa.com/tag/cy-young/

 

18 Aces with 9 in each league at the end of 2017. One has since moved leagues. Names in order of recency (2017 first) of making the above definition.

AL Aces: Kluber, Sale, Severino, Carrasco, Porcello, Verlander, Kuechel, Price, & Sonny Gray

NL Aces: Scherzer, Kershaw, Strasburg, Grienke, Jon Lester, Kyle Hendricks, MadBum, Jake Arrieta, Gerrit Cole (has since moved leagues).

 

15 other TOR guys with 7 in the AL & 8 in the NL. Again names in order of recency (2017 first) of making the above definition.

AL: Marcus Stroman, JA Happ, Aaron Sanchez, M. Tanaka, Chris Archer, King Felix, Collin McHugh

NL: Gio Gonzalez, Robbie Ray, Jacob deGrom, Jimmy Nelson, Alex Wood, Johnny Cueto, Noah Syndergard, & John Lackey.

 

So this gives us 33 total pitchers and to be honest I am not thrilled to see certain names listed to either category.

 

I don't believe Cookie Carrasco is an Ace (YET) but I believe he is a TOR. Others like Rick Porcello (receiver of great run support in 2016), Kyle Hendrick, Alex Woods & JA Happ might just be 1 year wonders. King Felix & Lackey make the listing only because they still had very good years in 2015. Does that still make them TOR in 2018?? I'm doubting that.

 

Thoughts/ Comments??

[nate82]

No way there are 30 aces......that's the Brian Anderson definition....lol

 

IMO an "ace" is the same thing as saying someone is a #1 pitcher. By definition with 30 teams that means there are 30 #1 pitchers.

 

No, if Jeff Suppan was a teams #1 pitcher coming into the season would you call him a #1 pitcher just because he is at the top of a teams rotation?

[MVP2110]

No way there are 30 aces......that's the Brian Anderson definition....lol

 

IMO an "ace" is the same thing as saying someone is a #1 pitcher. By definition with 30 teams that means there are 30 #1 pitchers.

 

No, if Jeff Suppan was a teams #1 pitcher coming into the season would you call him a #1 pitcher just because he is at the top of a teams rotation?

 

I didn't say each team had an ace. Just that I considered the 30 best pitchers in baseball as aces. An example is when Greinke & Kershaw we're together on the Dodgers.

[CheezWizHed]

Maybe we should just make new terms for it all...

 

Boomers - Top 5-10 or so pitchers that represent the creme de la creme of the pitchers.

Toupees - Top 30 pitchers in baseball.

[TJseven7]

Ace- the special arms who are in a class of their own... hyped as the best and back it up multiple years. Might be 8 to a max of 12 in the entire league right now.

 

Tor- top 30 or 60 pitcher in baseball. Not the 1-2 on a team but a guy who would be a 1-2 in a league wide redraft.

 

Nelson and Anderson had TOR seasons last year when they were healthy.

[markedman5]

Doing it over multiple seasons has to enter in there somewhere.........Harvey was an ace and now he isn't close......Nelson and Chase were TOR guys last season.....the season before not remotely close.......I have a hard time giving guys who haven't proven it over the long term the same status as guys who have done it for 3-5 years.

[RockCoCougars]

I'd say someone with over half quality starts with WHIP, ERA and strikeout pct all better than overall league average. That probably puts the total list around 20 or 25 in any given season. I'm thinking less than half of those would be considered " aces".

[nate82]

I'd say someone with over half quality starts with WHIP, ERA and strikeout pct all better than overall league average. That probably puts the total list around 20 or 25 in any given season. I'm thinking less than half of those would be considered " aces".

 

Kershaw, Bumgarner, Scherzer, and Sale right now to me are the only "aces" in MLB.

[homer]

I'd say someone with over half quality starts with WHIP, ERA and strikeout pct all better than overall league average. That probably puts the total list around 20 or 25 in any given season. I'm thinking less than half of those would be considered " aces".

 

Kershaw, Bumgarner, Scherzer, and Sale right now to me are the only "aces" in MLB.

 

I'd throw Kluber in there instead of Bumgarner at this point.

[MVP2110]

How many pitchers were aces in 2017 to you guys?

[homer]

How many pitchers were aces in 2017 to you guys?

 

There's "ace" and there's "top of rotation". To me personally, "ace" is reserved for those elite guys listed above (Sale, Kluber, Scherzer, Kershaw). Then there's a next tier of really, really, good #1's like Greinke, Carrasco, Severino, DeGrom, E Santana, Verlander, etc.