Designated Hitter in the National League? (Post #144: Proposed for 2020 Shortened Season)

[Tbadder]

I’m so tired of DH baseball, and no one can stop the ruthless march of the lowest common denominator, so I’m giving in. I’m just going to enjoy this last year or two of real baseball before pulling the plug on 54 years of being a fan. I guess it will be lots APBA and history books on the game. You know baseball used to be number one. Now I just heard that NASCAR actually surpassed baseball in popularity (can’t believe it’s true). Whatever baseball is doing it’s failing. I’m sure the DH for the last 30 teams in America that don’t use it will save it though.

Too funny coming from someone who claims to know what *real* baseball is

 

Yes the lowest common denominator! Baseball has determined that it’s all about strike outs and home runs. The game used to have a variety of players and strategies. That is being slowly drained away. I for one think triples are more exciting than homers. That stolen bases are better than walks. That Rod Carew bunting is amazing. I miss the sheer variety. It’s a generic sport now. That was one of the good things about last years: the 3 inning reliever. That hasn’t been around for a while and it’s revival was awesome. Who didn’t love what Hader and Burnes and Woodruff could do?! It was great because it was different. Yes the lowest common denominator!

[Tbadder]

I’m so tired of DH baseball, and no one can stop the ruthless march of the lowest common denominator, so I’m giving in. I’m just going to enjoy this last year or two of real baseball before pulling the plug on 54 years of being a fan. I guess it will be lots APBA and history books on the game. You know baseball used to be number one. Now I just heard that NASCAR actually surpassed baseball in popularity (can’t believe it’s true). Whatever baseball is doing it’s failing. I’m sure the DH for the last 30 teams in America that don’t use it will save it though.

 

54 years of being a fan and you’re going to stop because of the Brewers getting the DH? The Brewers were in the AL through the 1997 season and obviously used a DH during those years. The Brewers have spent more time in franchise history using a DH for the pitcher than not using one.

 

What team were you a fan of before the 1998 season? You’ve been a fan for a long time and since DH baseball isn’t “real baseball”, what “real baseball” team did you affiliate yourself with?

 

I didn’t follow the Brewers when they were in the AL. I was a Giants fan. And yes i’ll Stop being a fan when the DH comes to the NL. I might be totally wrong, so be it. But it’s a conviction and I do care to stick with.

[Humans Need Water]

I’m so tired of DH baseball, and no one can stop the ruthless march of the lowest common denominator, so I’m giving in. I’m just going to enjoy this last year or two of real baseball before pulling the plug on 54 years of being a fan. I guess it will be lots APBA and history books on the game. You know baseball used to be number one. Now I just heard that NASCAR actually surpassed baseball in popularity (can’t believe it’s true). Whatever baseball is doing it’s failing. I’m sure the DH for the last 30 teams in America that don’t use it will save it though.

Too funny coming from someone who claims to know what *real* baseball is

 

Yes the lowest common denominator! Baseball has determined that it’s all about strike outs and home runs. The game used to have a variety of players and strategies. That is being slowly drained away. I for one think triples are more exciting than homers. That stolen bases are better than walks. That Rod Carew bunting is amazing. I miss the sheer variety. It’s a generic sport now. That was one of the good things about last years: the 3 inning reliever. That hasn’t been around for a while and it’s revival was awesome. Who didn’t love what Hader and Burnes and Woodruff could do?! It was great because it was different. Yes the lowest common denominator!

The variety? Except hitting triples isn't a skill. Part of it is luck based on where the position player is lined up and/or the kick off the wall someone gets or OF running into each other. If everyone in the OF plays straight up then it amounts to big time speed that few have always possessed. I agree with you on the drag bunting and it's beyond annoying that more players don't do it, especially against a shift where it can be an easy hit. Sac bunting is what it is - analytics say don't give away outs. So while it was a strategy at one point that doesn't mean it was a good strategy.

 

Hader and Burnes threw 3 innings *once*. Woodruff did it 3x out of the pen. While it's different it's not common. It sounds like what you want is something that's different *and* common. Hey, I know what teams could try, how about defensive shifting every batter? How about putting career corner IF (3b) up the middle (2b)? If only the game was different and we saw a variety of (new) strategies, right? There's still strategy involved in the game - that's never going to change.

[Tbadder]

Yes the lowest common denominator! Baseball has determined that it’s all about strike outs and home runs. The game used to have a variety of players and strategies. That is being slowly drained away. I for one think

The variety? Except hitting triples isn't a skill. Part of it is luck based on where the position player is lined up and/or the kick off the wall someone gets or OF running into each other. If everyone in the OF plays straight up then it amounts to big time speed that few have always possessed. I agree with you on the drag bunting and it's beyond annoying that more players don't do it, especially against a shift where it can be an easy hit. Sac bunting is what it is - analytics say don't give away outs. So while it was a strategy at one point that doesn't mean it was a good strategy.

 

Hader and Burnes threw 3 innings *once*. Woodruff did it 3x out of the pen. While it's different it's not common. It sounds like what you want is something that's different *and* common. Hey, I know what teams could try, how about defensive shifting every batter? How about putting career corner IF (3b) up the middle (2b)? If only the game was different and we saw a variety of (new) strategies, right? There's still strategy involved in the game - that's never going to change.

 

Once again, it’s the homer and the strike out that is the lowest common denominator. Yes, I get it triples are about ballparks and not a skill. Point taken, but that’s because even when it comes to ballparks there’s a generic design that’s slowly emerging. Where’s the new Polo Grounds? Where’s the modern version of the Baker Bowl? There’s variety but less of it. I definitely agree about your point about shifting—loved it! But even that the talk has already begun on restraining it. In my book conformity will always be the hobgoblin of little minds, and when a lot of people start howling for uniformity I find it ugly, limiting, and well anti-diversity . None if it matters in the end. The uniformity of the DH will win out and what I think is of no consequence.

[Ennder]

If you honestly think people wanting the DH in the NL is why baseball is losing fans you are completely out of touch with reality. Nobody gives a crap about Nascar either, those are some heavily biased stats you are posting. That is showing viewership per event which is comparing like the average viewership of 90 baseball games a week compared to the one Nascar race that happens. If you want to use crooked math you can still show that baseball is more popular than football, if you look at viewership of all games for a full season baseball blows the NFL away. You have to skew things towards per game viewership to make the math come out other ways and it is a fair way to do it in many cases but it is still flawed.

[Tbadder]

If you honestly think people wanting the DH in the NL is why baseball is losing fans you are completely out of touch with reality. Nobody gives a crap about Nascar either, those are some heavily biased stats you are posting. That is showing viewership per event which is comparing like the average viewership of 90 baseball games a week compared to the one Nascar race that happens. If you want to use crooked math you can still show that baseball is more popular than football, if you look at viewership of all games for a full season baseball blows the NFL away. You have to skew things towards per game viewership to make the math come out other ways and it is a fair way to do it in many cases but it is still flawed.

 

I’m not using math at all. I’m making personal observations. I’m not using stats to prove anything. I’m making an assertion that baseball has less variety than it had both in terms of strategies and players and ballparks,etc. if you read my post I said I didn’t believe NASCAR was more popular, I said there’s talk out there. Your reality is one thing. It is the dominate reality and it’s the winning reality. Enjoy it; revel in it. You’ve won the day. For a few of us it’s not our reality though and it’s sad and that’s all I wanted to say and i thought this was the forum to exchange those ideas.

[Humans Need Water]

Once again, it’s the homer and the strike out that is the lowest common denominator. Yes, I get it triples are about ballparks and not a skill. Point taken, but that’s because even when it comes to ballparks there’s a generic design that’s slowly emerging. Where’s the new Polo Grounds? Where’s the modern version of the Baker Bowl? There’s variety but less of it. I definitely agree about your point about shifting—loved it! But even that the talk has already begun on restraining it. In my book conformity will always be the hobgoblin of little minds, and when a lot of people start howling for uniformity I find it ugly, limiting, and well anti-diversity . None if it matters in the end. The uniformity of the DH will win out and what I think is of no consequence.

With this mind set there's no way you've been a fan of baseball for 54yrs. Baseball hasn't decided it's about K and HR. Ever think that part of the reason Ks are up is because everyone throws 97mph? Part of the reason HR are up is players are bigger, faster, stronger, more explosive. One of the reasons MLB wants to calm down shifting is because it's robbing plenty of hits resulting in less offense. The DH is one way to solve that issue.

 

Variety doesn't automatically equal quality. MLB has variety between DH in AL and starting pitchers hitting in the NL using double switches later in the game. But the quality of offense provided by starting pitchers hitting is poor and there's no strategy in choosing between a pinch hitter or double switch. Again, the first 2/3 of every game the AL and NL operate exactly the same strategy wise the only difference being the NL has one automatic out every time through the order.

 

There's always been a generic design forever when it comes to ballparks. Polo Grounds, Baker Bowl, Fenway, etc aren't the norm and never were. You can't hate on MLB for being a simple K/HR driven game today then suggest new stadiums have foul lines/gaps that are 260-300'. Players today can throw the ball farther than that.

[wallus]

Sign me up for the 8 batters idea. Adding the DH will put small markets at an even bigger disadvantage.

[Tbadder]

Sign me up for the 8 batters idea. Adding the DH will put small markets at an even bigger disadvantage.

 

I agree. The DH drives up the cost of players with a less varied skill set, making it a bit harder for small markets to compete.

[Tbadder]

With this mind set there's no way you've been a fan of baseball for 54yrs. Baseball hasn't decided it's about K and HR. Ever think that part of the reason Ks are up is because everyone throws 97mph? Part of the reason HR are up is players are bigger, faster, stronger, more explosive. One of the reasons MLB wants to calm down shifting is because it's robbing plenty of hits resulting in less offense. The DH is one way to solve that issue.

 

Variety doesn't automatically equal quality. MLB has variety between DH in AL and starting pitchers hitting in the NL using double switches later in the game. But the quality of offense provided by starting pitchers hitting is poor and there's no strategy in choosing between a pinch hitter or double switch. Again, the first 2/3 of every game the AL and NL operate exactly the same strategy wise the only difference being the NL has one automatic out every time through the order.

 

There's always been a generic design forever when it comes to ballparks. Polo Grounds, Baker Bowl, Fenway, etc aren't the norm and never were. You can't hate on MLB for being a simple K/HR driven game today then suggest new stadiums have foul lines/gaps that are 260-300'. Players today can throw the ball farther than that.

 

To you first point, that sounds reasonable. I don’t doubt your point of view is on some level salient. I’m not debating the causes; I’m debating the effect. Home run-strike out driven baseball is boring to some. I also like European football better than basketball because I’m not a fan of cheap offense. So what if I like pitchers duels better than barrages of runs. It doesn’t matter.

 

I fundamentally disagree with your second point. I do believe that variety equals quality. You don’t agree. You’ve got every right to think so. I support your right to think so. It’s just that it’s ruining the game for me. That’s okay too. Who the heck am I?

 

The one thing I can say with certainty is that I do love baseball though. The fact is you don’t know me and that’s an unfair statement. I’ve played it constantly in my youth, as an adult I watch it, read about it, listen to podcasts,heck, I’ve even authored two small press books of poetry about baseball. They’re not very good and have long ago disappeared from the shelves, but they are tangible proof of my love of baseball. My ideas might be poor; you might be intellectually superior, I wouldn’t presume, but I don’t lie: I care deeply about baseball.

 

Take care friend.

[pacopete4]

If they go eight batters in NL then it should be in AL also.

[Humans Need Water]

With this mind set there's no way you've been a fan of baseball for 54yrs. Baseball hasn't decided it's about K and HR. Ever think that part of the reason Ks are up is because everyone throws 97mph? Part of the reason HR are up is players are bigger, faster, stronger, more explosive. One of the reasons MLB wants to calm down shifting is because it's robbing plenty of hits resulting in less offense. The DH is one way to solve that issue.

 

Variety doesn't automatically equal quality. MLB has variety between DH in AL and starting pitchers hitting in the NL using double switches later in the game. But the quality of offense provided by starting pitchers hitting is poor and there's no strategy in choosing between a pinch hitter or double switch. Again, the first 2/3 of every game the AL and NL operate exactly the same strategy wise the only difference being the NL has one automatic out every time through the order.

 

There's always been a generic design forever when it comes to ballparks. Polo Grounds, Baker Bowl, Fenway, etc aren't the norm and never were. You can't hate on MLB for being a simple K/HR driven game today then suggest new stadiums have foul lines/gaps that are 260-300'. Players today can throw the ball farther than that.

 

To you first point, that sounds reasonable. I don’t doubt your point of view is on some level salient. I’m not debating the causes; I’m debating the effect. Home run-strike out driven baseball is boring to some. I also like European football better than basketball because I’m not a fan of cheap offense. So what if I like pitchers duels better than barrages of runs. It doesn’t matter.

 

I fundamentally disagree with your second point. I do believe that variety equals quality. You don’t agree. You’ve got every right to think so. I support your right to think so. It’s just that it’s ruining the game for me. That’s okay too. Who the heck am I?

 

The one thing I can say with certainty is that I do love baseball though. The fact is you don’t know me and that’s an unfair statement. I’ve played it constantly in my youth, as an adult I watch it, read about it, listen to podcasts,heck, I’ve even authored two small press books of poetry about baseball. They’re not very good and have long ago disappeared from the shelves, but they are tangible proof of my love of baseball. My ideas might be poor; you might be intellectually superior, I wouldn’t presume, but I don’t lie: I care deeply about baseball.

 

Take care friend.

I agree with you on some points and not on others. I'm not solely for increased offense either. Pitchers duels are equally as fun to watch as 11-10 games. But you can have both of those outcomes without the pitcher embarrassing himself in the box 2-3x per game while not sacrificing strategy in the process. That's all I'm saying.

 

And I personally think the number of offensive players should mirror the number of defensive players.

 

Good day, Sir

[superfly]

I'm on board with either DH in both or none. Thanks for the laugh to those who stomped their feet and say they're no longer going to be fans if the NL switches though, I needed a good laugh this morning.

[JohnBriggs12]

The game has changed since the Brewers were in the AL. As for the Brewers not being able to afford a DH? Heck if they had the DH, they'd have a role for Thames or they could bring up Hiura, move Shaw or Moose to 1B and use Aguilar at DH. Or they could keep 3 catchers and use Grandal there. Brewers are well suited to stock the position. There's still DH types that can't find a job out there.

[3and2Fastball]

Clemente's Dream, I respect those point of views. I'll probably be less of a fan of MLB when the DH comes to the NL, but I definitely won't stop watching it. By the way, I recommend Strat-O-Matic over APBA.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The game has changed since the Brewers were in the AL. As for the Brewers not being able to afford a DH? Heck if they had the DH, they'd have a role for Thames or they could bring up Hiura, move Shaw or Moose to 1B and use Aguilar at DH. Or they could keep 3 catchers and use Grandal there. Brewers are well suited to stock the position. There's still DH types that can't find a job out there.

 

Exactly - it's not like adding a DH to the NL suddenly gives 14-16 more MLB player jobs to the league - the NL's 25 man rosters would simply adjust and some of those fringy utility guys who are glove-first players will get kicked to the curb.

 

Bringing a DH to the NL should be viewed as a means to improve pitcher health and further bolster offense, not as a way to increase veteran FA opportunities.

[monty57]

Interleague play began in 1997. In the initial years, it was fairly even, with the NL having a better interleague record four of the first seven years. Starting in 2003, the AL began a string of 14 straight winning years, with that streak finally being broken last year. Overall, the AL has a 3,032-2,732 record over the NL.

 

After the initial years of getting used to interleague play, the AL has dominated, showing that they have a decided advantage over their NL counterparts. Combine that with pitchers getting hurt doing something other than pitching, and I can't understand why NL owners haven't added the DH years ago.

 

To me, saying that pitchers should have to hit "because they're baseball players" is like saying the quarterback and left tackle should have to switch positions every few downs. The strategy of watching pitchers hit is akin to the strategy of watching Aaron Rodgers trying to block Mack, and it's crazy to see someone getting hurt watching him do something he has no business doing.

 

The Brewers missing the playoffs in 2017 largely because they had multiple pitchers hurt swinging the bat or running the bases was the straw that broke this camel's back. Bring on the DH and let's see talented players doing what they're best at doing.

[SeaBass]

Further, just because the rules allow a DH does not prevent a team from using a pitcher to bat. It just makes it very, very, very, very (I could go on) unlikely. It's not an anti-pitcher-as-batter rule, it's just an option that 100% of teams that have the option use.

 

I respect the stance that Clemente's Dream is taking. That's a personal decision of fandom that can't be argued and I don't think he's trying to argue with anyone, just sharing his viewpoint. It just strikes me as very odd that that's the hill that he, or any fan, would choose to die on. To me you'd have to be a very disgruntled fan already but somehow pitchers batting in the NL has kept you around? You've weathered expanded playoffs, instant replay, the shift, banning contact plays at home plate, "time savers" like limited mound visits and potential pitch clocks, but the DH is going to be the end of you? I don't really buy it, but ok I guess.

[djoctagone]

it's possible with the potential 2020 abbreviated season.

 

certainly gives the brewers an advantage with ryan braun playing the majority of his games as a designated hitter (and giving lorenzo cain a spell from time to time).

[SoCalBrewfan]

Perhaps this has been discussed elsewhere, but I didn't see it. There is apparently a chance of the NL using a DH this year if/when play resumes. So of course I was wondering, does this help the Brewers or hurt them? Also, would love to have bitter argument about something different for a change. (No more Jimmy Nelson on the basepaths...)

 

We don't really have a traditional DH situation with an extra slugger who is defensively challenged, and have let go Thames, Choi, Shaw, and Aguilar who would all seem to have been the types of players I would have seen as good fits. But we do have a deep crop of position players who can play multiple roles, such that we would normally have expected to have several capable bats on the bench in any given day. I would guess we would use Braun vs LHP almost exclusively but then mix and match a bit vs RHP. Narvaez could be a good part-time DH. Does this give Nottingham or Healy a better chance of making the roster?

 

There's also the question of whether our competitors benefit more than Milwaukee does. Our top competitors seem to have extra position players who can hit, sadly, so maybe we lose ground relative to the Cardinals and Cubs? Curious to hear what folks think.

[MadThinker88]

There are 2 ways to approach the DH role.

1) Have a person be the regular DH (ie he is the DH 6 or 7 days a week). Generally this is a defensively challenged player or someone that seems to be injury prone anytime they play in the field. It can also be a older hitter that has lost a step or two in the field but still very good at the plate. Classic examples of this DH role: David Ortiz, Edgar Martinez, Travis Hafner, Frank Thomas, Jim Thome (later in his career), Edwin Encarnacion.

 

2) Rotating/ Flexible DH (ie spot floats between a group of players). In this manner the same players are in the lineup but depending on the day one of them might be the DH instead of out in the field. In this manner it helps to keep a core group of players in the lineup but still afford the players a "day-off" from the field. Some managers use this so their better players continue to play but are able to get some down time (by not playing in the field for the 2nd game of a double header or day game after a night game). Its hard to give a great example of this as players are rotating a majority of the time.

 

One thing to remember: the DH role takes some getting used to. Some players adapt to it better than others as players may struggle to find a routine waiting at-bat to at-bat when not going into the field regularly.

 

Looking at the Brewers I think the DH could be a god send to try to keep Braun healthier (by not going into the field as often) & a way to occasionally give a break to Yelich/ Cain while keeping those bats in the lineup.. Its hard to say a team has an advantage of the DH being available but it does help all teams.

 

You noted the Cardinals but their 'best' DH might have been Jose Martinez & he was dealt in the off season to Tampa.

[Vgmastr]

I think Braun will end up being the DH the majority of the games. This'll help keep Braun's bat in the lineup and keep him from wearing down. Instead of only playing 4-5 games a week he can play close to every game and only play the field sparingly. That way you have Yelich/Cain/Garcia with Gamel as the primary backup in the OF and split 1B between Smoak/Gyorko/Holt.

[monty57]

I think Braun will end up being the DH the majority of the games. This'll help keep Braun's bat in the lineup and keep him from wearing down. Instead of only playing 4-5 games a week he can play close to every game and only play the field sparingly. That way you have Yelich/Cain/Garcia with Gamel as the primary backup in the OF and split 1B between Smoak/Gyorko/Holt.

 

That sums it up pretty well. Braun was only considered for 1B because they have four starting-caliber OF. He'd probably be pretty bad defensively at first. Braun at DH, with occasional starts in the OF to rest other players lets the Brewers keep his bat in the lineup while improving their defense.

[Outlander]

WIth the expanded rosters think they could use another right handed bat. If Braun plays a bunch at DH could use a better 1B option when facing lefties since Gyorko would have likely played 3B in those situations anyways.

[MrTPlush]

Considering they were planning to move Braun back to RF it would be pretty major for the 2020 Brewers. He was notably brutal there compared to LF and I doubt he got better with age. It also keeps him a bit healthier, which lets be honest, he needs these days.

 

I think it would be fairly beneficial for us compared to other NL teams. It would definitely help out some other teams too.