Ryan Braun Willing to Try Playing 1B and 2B [Post #220: Proposal for Braun at 2B]

[tmwiese55]

 

When healthy Braun is the best hitter on the team. He will be in the lineup when healthy aside from the routine days off like he's been getting for years now. It's really that simple. Yelich will go the RF and Santana would be the odd man out. And of course they'll rotate as much as possible. And they won't hesitate to toss him on the 10 day whenever he has anything pop up rather than him playing through or taking 3-5 days off. He still has 3 weeks to get more and more comfortable at 1B so hopefully a couple starts per week can come there. But if a trade doesn't happen with Santana, throughout the year this will take care of itself with injuries to all 4 guys here and there. It all becomes much easier though if Braun can play 1B adequately.

 

If they shared your view of Braun's value to the team, there is no way they'd be in the situation they're in now. None.

 

No, they know he's often hurt. I didn't say he's not often hurt and they they shouldn't plan on it. Also, the reason they're in this predicament is they fully intended to trade Santana and it didn't happen as the market was so low on him. My stating he's the best hitter when healthy doesn't contradict anything.

 

Come back to me when he's fully healthy and sitting the bench for days at a time, not his normal one day here and there maintenance.

 

Also, I do totally grant that it's debatable between him, Yelich, Cain. I can see an argument for all, I don't want to participate in any argument of that nature.

 

I said it way back when HH and all the other leaks layed out this elaborate plan of consecutive moves relying on the others. Way too many plates in the air and one fell with Santana. Hindsight they probably shouldn't have signed Cain and just played Yelich in CF. But they fully expected Santana to be get them a good package.

[pacopete4]

Just out of curiosity coolhandluke, what will you say if when opening day comes and he’s plugged into the three hole and starting in left or first? Sure putting yourself out there to be very, very wrong.

[coolhandluke121]

Just out of curiosity coolhandluke, what will you say if when opening day comes and he’s plugged into the three hole and starting in left or first? Sure putting yourself out there to be very, very wrong.

 

There could be a disclaimer at the end of every post that says this is just a forum and everything is an opinion or a "take", and could be wrong. However, it must take some serious mental gymnastics to think that they value Braun very highly but would go out and make the moves they made. Not sure how you can reconcile the contradiction there.

 

As for thinking they had a deal lined up for Santana, I think the fact that they've already said Braun won't play RF even when Santana sits kind of obliterates that theory. I mean I don't think they got Cain or Yelich to play RF often. And I don't think they would have taken this risk if they weren't damn sure they could trade an outfielder. Stearns strikes me as a little more shrewd than that.

 

The thing that makes the most sense and is also the simplest explanation is that they don't think Braun is a star anymore. It also happens to be perfectly consistent with their treatment of most other aging personnel options this offseason, notwithstanding Cain.

[pacopete4]

Just out of curiosity coolhandluke, what will you say if when opening day comes and he’s plugged into the three hole and starting in left or first? Sure putting yourself out there to be very, very wrong.

 

There could be a disclaimer at the end of every post that says this is just a forum and everything is an opinion or a "take", and could be wrong. However, it must take some serious mental gymnastics to think that they value Braun very highly but would go out and make the moves they made. Not sure how you can reconcile the contradiction there.

 

As for thinking they had a deal lined up for Santana, I think the fact that they've already said Braun won't play RF even when Santana sits kind of obliterates that theory. I mean I don't think they got Cain or Yelich to play RF often. And I don't think they would have taken this risk if they weren't damn sure they could trade an outfielder. Stearns strikes me as a little more shrewd than that.

 

The thing that makes the most sense and is also the simplest explanation is that they don't think Braun is a star anymore. It also happens to be perfectly consistent with their treatment of most other aging personnel options this offseason, notwithstanding Cain.

Yelich has played quite a bit of RF in ST lately. Just so you’re aware. I’m even more interested in how this shakes out now because some of these posts. Interesting takes. It shall be interesting.

[clancyphile]

I would like to add that the whole concept of expecting guys to miss time with injury and thus being able to get everyone 500+ pa's is missing one critical point, and it falls apart when you realize it. You can't count on the timing of injuries to be conducive to divvying up the pa's the way you're implying.

 

Injuries are unpredictable. If two guys are nicked up at the same time, the missed time doesn't automatically go to one of the other good players. What then? And when they're all healthy at the same time, you have to play the best players, which does not really include Braun at this point. Santana, Yelich, Cain, and Thames are all better, at least against RHP's.

 

But there are some durability issues, already. Thames had 123 starts in 2017 and seemed to wear down some. So I think the most we get from Thames is 122 starts at first.

 

If you have 10 DH games, and 40 where Braun plays first, that leaves 112 games with three outfield starters each. Divvy that by the four, and you get 84 starts for each, so each starts 134 games.

 

Braun: 10 DH, 40 1B, 84 LF

Yelich: 78 LF, 56 CF

Cain: 106 CF, 28 RF

Santana: 134 RF

Thames: 122 1B

 

The other scenario is that Thames only starts 102 games at first (comparable to the 103 he had at that position in 2017 and subtracting his outfield and DH starts). That gives Braun 60 at first, 10 at DH, and 92 games with an "outfield rotation," meaning Braun, Cain, Yelich, and Santana each come out with 69 starts from that - and each of them gets 139 starts total.

 

Braun: 10 DH, 60 1B, 69 LF

Yelich: 93 LF, 46 CF

Cain: 116 CF, 23 RF

Santana: 139 RF

Thames: 102 1B

 

In any case, I am not upset with the present situation. The Crew has depth between those five and Perez. Players can be rested, if someone gets hurt, there is little offensive fall-off. Broxton and Phillips will be at AAA, ready for a call-up to replace an injured player.

[clancyphile]

When you think about it - even if two get nicked up, the Crew isn't that bad off.

 

Thames plays 1B and LF, and in a pinch plays RF.

Braun is at 1B, LF, and has played RF

Yelich plays LF and CF

Santana and Cain play all three OF positions, as does Hernan Perez.

 

Phillips and Broxton in AAA play all three OF positions. Stokes plays LF and CF.

[tmwiese55]

Just out of curiosity coolhandluke, what will you say if when opening day comes and he’s plugged into the three hole and starting in left or first? Sure putting yourself out there to be very, very wrong.

 

There could be a disclaimer at the end of every post that says this is just a forum and everything is an opinion or a "take", and could be wrong. However, it must take some serious mental gymnastics to think that they value Braun very highly but would go out and make the moves they made. Not sure how you can reconcile the contradiction there.

 

As for thinking they had a deal lined up for Santana, I think the fact that they've already said Braun won't play RF even when Santana sits kind of obliterates that theory. I mean I don't think they got Cain or Yelich to play RF often. And I don't think they would have taken this risk if they weren't damn sure they could trade an outfielder. Stearns strikes me as a little more shrewd than that.

 

The thing that makes the most sense and is also the simplest explanation is that they don't think Braun is a star anymore. It also happens to be perfectly consistent with their treatment of most other aging personnel options this offseason, notwithstanding Cain.

 

Two very big assumptions in there. First, simply that it wasn't Santana they planned on trading. That just seems obvious to me yet you're acting like it's not a thing. And second, that they just wouldn't play Yelich in RF. I don't know why they wouldn't have figured on that for whenever Braun is playing and then Yelich in LF when he's out.

 

Of course their and all of our assessments is that he's not a star due to not being able to rely on him to stay healthy. They planned on that accordingly and I don't see how that somehow proves they don't think he's a good hitter when healthy. He was great two years ago and he hit the ball as well as he ever had before the late season injury last year. But of course he missed a ton of games early and he should have been on the DL at the end

 

Moreover, with the leaks from HH and other legit writers revealing talks about Archer and Cle it's basically a certainty Santana was trying to be traded. Which contradicts them just saying Braun sucks and is a bench guy now

[TURBO]

When you think about it - even if two get nicked up, the Crew isn't that bad off.

 

Thames plays 1B and LF, and in a pinch plays RF.

Braun is at 1B, LF, and has played RF

Yelich plays LF and CF

Santana and Cain play all three OF positions, as does Hernan Perez.

 

Phillips and Broxton in AAA play all three OF positions. Stokes plays LF and CF.

 

Just because Santana has played CF, doesn't make him even a consideration to play CF now... He played CF out of necessity a while back, but given his defense, I can't see him ever playing another inning there.

[TURBO]

 

Moreover, with the leaks from HH...

 

Ummm, HH was a fraud, that is common knowledge now, not sure you want to list what he was doing as a leak...

[coolhandluke121]

"You can't count on the timing of injuries to be conducive to divvying up the pa's the way you're implying.

 

 

But there are some durability issues, already.

 

Sure, if you're just talking about basic rest and recovery, then you can manipulate everyone's off days in the way many are suggesting during those periods when everyone is basically healthy. But it seems the main reason people are suggesting there's enough pa's for everyone is that guys like Braun and Cain have missed a lot of games due to injury in recent years, and that really throws a wrench in the planning.

 

Also, even if it's really going to be the best-case scenario that so many people are drawing up, there's going to be many occasions when everyone is perfectly fine and nobody needs a day off. What then? You go with the best players. I believe that's Yelich, Cain, and Santana, and I think the people in charge feel the same way. At 1B, Braun could get more pa's if Thames struggles, but I expect Thames to continue to be the better option against RHP's.

[pacopete4]

When you think about it - even if two get nicked up, the Crew isn't that bad off.

 

Thames plays 1B and LF, and in a pinch plays RF.

Braun is at 1B, LF, and has played RF

Yelich plays LF and CF

Santana and Cain play all three OF positions, as does Hernan Perez.

 

Phillips and Broxton in AAA play all three OF positions. Stokes plays LF and CF.

 

Just because Santana has played CF, doesn't make him even a consideration to play CF now... He played CF out of necessity a while back, but given his defense, I can't see him ever playing another inning there.

Santana barely belongs in RF. He will eventually find his way to the AL.

[tmwiese55]

 

Moreover, with the leaks from HH...

 

Ummm, HH was a fraud, that is common knowledge now, not sure you want to list what he was doing as a leak...

 

Well I said other legit writers which were basically saying the same thing as him.

[TJseven7]

When you think about it - even if two get nicked up, the Crew isn't that bad off.

 

Thames plays 1B and LF, and in a pinch plays RF.

Braun is at 1B, LF, and has played RF

Yelich plays LF and CF

Santana and Cain play all three OF positions, as does Hernan Perez.

 

Phillips and Broxton in AAA play all three OF positions. Stokes plays LF and CF.

 

Just because Santana has played CF, doesn't make him even a consideration to play CF now... He played CF out of necessity a while back, but given his defense, I can't see him ever playing another inning there.

 

I don't want to see thames in the OF ever again. I want braun at lf or 1b. Yelich Cain can basically play all 3 but cains overkill in LF and yelich in RF isn't ideal. Santana is RF or LF only. Perez is the "in a pinch" guy but I prefer LF there too... emergency type play or yelich rest vs Lhp.

 

I hope Broxton gets a good offer.

 

Having the depth we have in the OF should put an end to non-OFs playing OF. Having 3 quality starters there 162 games is a big bonus over what we trotted out there at times last year.

[adambr2]

 

When healthy Braun is the best hitter on the team. He will be in the lineup when healthy aside from the routine days off like he's been getting for years now. It's really that simple. Yelich will go the RF and Santana would be the odd man out. And of course they'll rotate as much as possible. And they won't hesitate to toss him on the 10 day whenever he has anything pop up rather than him playing through or taking 3-5 days off. He still has 3 weeks to get more and more comfortable at 1B so hopefully a couple starts per week can come there. But if a trade doesn't happen with Santana, throughout the year this will take care of itself with injuries to all 4 guys here and there. It all becomes much easier though if Braun can play 1B adequately.

 

If they shared your view of Braun's value to the team, there is no way they'd be in the situation they're in now. None.

 

Come back to me when he's fully healthy

 

Fully healthy? I honestly don't expect him to be fully healthy the rest of his career. Or maybe he will be, but it will be for very short stretches at a time.

 

Was he ever really 'fully' healthy last year? If so, how long did it last?

 

Gamed played don't tell the full story the last few years. It doesn't tell us how much of that time was spent playing through one ailment or another that affected his performance.

 

The point of whether or not Braun is still our best hitter when fully healthy is a pointless debate to have because he is not going to be.

 

We'd all love to see Braun take 3 or 4 maintenence days a month, be fully healthy otherwise, start 140 games and give us a .925 OPS. But he's not, and we all know it. Ryan Braun is going to be dealing with nagging injuries the rest of his career.

[tmwiese55]

But that's exactly what we're talking about here. He is going to play when he's healthy, it's really that simple. And that's a different argument than whether and how they should plan around him being healthy. And like I said, they know he's not reliable to be healthy and that's likely part how they think they can make this work to get enough ABs for everyone. CHLs point is that they think he's not good and that's why they did all this so that's what we're discussing.

 

Oh and keep in mind just in 2016 he was basically healthy most of the year.

[TJseven7]

But that's exactly what we're talking about here. He is going to play when he's healthy, it's really that simple. And that's a different argument than whether and how they should plan around him being healthy. And like I said, they know he's not reliable to be healthy and that's likely part how they think they can make this work to get enough ABs for everyone. CHLs point is that they think he's not good and that's why they did all this so that's what we're discussing.

 

Oh and keep in mind just in 2016 he was basically healthy most of the year.

 

Side note: keeping him healthy is why most in the "non- roster logjam" camp see no starts issue.

[danzig6767]

 

When healthy Braun is the best hitter on the team.

Braun is a year older and Santana should be entering his prime hitting years.

 

Domingo posted an .875 OPS last year and i expect him to be in the .850-900 plus range this year. He hits for average, for power, and walks at an above average rate.

 

Maybe Braun can keep pace with that at age 34, but i see the odds being against it. I would be glad to be shown wrong though by Ryan.

[adambr2]

Yeah, I'm struggling to see why Braun plays over Santana when everyone is healthy.

 

Neither of these guys is in there for defense. Offensively Santana was better in just about every statistical way last year. One guy is 25 with upside. One guy is 34 and his body is breaking down.

 

You also lose the defensive benefit of having Yelich in LF by forcing him to RF just to accommodate Braun.

[wallus]

The good news with all of this is that guys should be fresher and there should be less at bats from the Nieuwenhuis's, Franklins, etc of the world.

[coolhandluke121]

Yeah, I'm struggling to see why Braun plays over Santana when everyone is healthy.

 

Neither of these guys is in there for defense. Offensively Santana was better in just about every statistical way last year. One guy is 25 with upside. One guy is 34 and his body is breaking down.

 

You also lose the defensive benefit of having Yelich in LF by forcing him to RF just to accommodate Braun.

 

All true. And even if it's not, I'm not even saying that Santana is or will be better than Braun this year, or that Braun won't start in LF on opening day for posterity and possibly earn a little more playing time than Santana. I'm saying that the moves they made this off-season reveal that the front office is far more skeptical of Braun's value to the team moving forward than many fans here are.

[pacopete4]

I'm saying that the moves they made this off-season reveal that the front office is far more skeptical of Braun's Santana's value to the team moving forward than many fans here are.

 

Fixed.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Yeah, I'm struggling to see why Braun plays over Santana when everyone is healthy.

 

Neither of these guys is in there for defense. Offensively Santana was better in just about every statistical way last year. One guy is 25 with upside. One guy is 34 and his body is breaking down.

 

You also lose the defensive benefit of having Yelich in LF by forcing him to RF just to accommodate Braun.

 

All true. And even if it's not, I'm not even saying that Santana is or will be better than Braun this year, or that Braun won't start in LF on opening day for posterity and possibly earn a little more playing time than Santana. I'm saying that the moves they made this off-season reveal that the front office is far more skeptical of Braun's value to the team moving forward than many fans here are.

 

I think you have a great point here. I sort of view the Brewers acquiring Yelich similar to the Packers drafting Aaron Rodgers in 2005. Is Braun done? No. Can he still be an effective player for several seasons? I'd say there's a decent chance. But they had an opportunity to acquire a player who could effectively be a "Braun Part II"-type, and they acted on it. Players like Yelich just don't hit the market. He was there because the Marlins were dropping salary in a complete rebuild, and he wanted out. The Brewers saw an opportunity to acquire a difference-maker at a palatable price, and they jumped at it, even though they still had a very solid LF option. Just like the Packers still had a very solid QB option when they drafted Rodgers.

 

I think the Brewers know that Braun still adds a lot of value to the lineup. But they also realize that he is 34 and has begun showing his age durability-wise. He's a guy that's great to have in the lineup, but can no longer be depended upon to show up every day. Yelich is their version of adding 2009 Braun to the lineup. It creates a logjam, but you find a way to make it work, because it improves the team now and in the future.

[MrTPlush]

The season is quickly approaching and it sounds like Ryan Braun can’t play 1st base without destroying any offensive value he gives. Not a good look there David Stearns, better hope he starts getting comfortable.

 

I would be a tad more optimistic, but it took forever to adjust from LF to RF for him(even then it was pretty bad). If this 1st base move is going bad so far watch out.

[Yolk]

Where are these sounds coming from? He’s looked perfectly fine there from what I’ve seen. He’s made a number of nice scoops, saved a throwing error, quick tags, a run-down.

[tmwiese55]

Yea my guess is Stearns got boned by a team or two on deals he had lined up for Santana before the Cain/Yelich moves. Still, a couple weeks left for Braun to get better at 1B.