Ryan Braun Willing to Try Playing 1B and 2B [Post #220: Proposal for Braun at 2B]

[JohnBriggs12]

I have no doubt in my mind that he could play 2B.....he was a middle infielder in college and still thinks of himself as a SS....id give him some innings at 1B and 2B in spring training....what a line-up .....cain...yelich....braun ...shaw...Santana...thames...pina...arcia...pitcher.....

 

 

The big difference between 3B and middle infield is the ball comes on you a heck of a lot quicker, and you also need to be able to charge bunts and make off balance throws. My guess is Braun just didn't have the quick hands. Yeah he missed throws too, but a lot of that was adjusting to the major leagues. Braun's a great athlete, and has never gotten too big to play middle infield. A lot of time these days, the 2B lines up in the outfield anyway. That would be a heck of a lineup with him at 2B.

[RobDeer 45]

Not sure if any of you saw the Counsell interview on Hot Stove but he was talking openly about Braun playing first, and trying to get him comfortable there. I wasn't sure if it was just talk before or if they'd really give it an honest effort. Seems like they will get him the reps there and see what he can do.

[Crash2303]

I did some stat digging on braun's 3B exploits in 2007 and found some interesting things that i think could be extrapolated to give us a better ideas of how he'd perform at 1B. First, some assumptions, yes- as has been well documented he was atrocious, historically atrocious at 3B. However, it was his rookie year, and there was a good chance had he stuck there his fielding and accuracy would have improved ie Weeks, who also was historically awful at 2B and grew to be 'only terrible'- hey, improvement is improvement. unfortunately, since Brauny hasn't been in the infield in 10 years whatever gains he would have made are obviously negated, and is reasonable to expect would be worse (at least at third base). I am also assuming that his range in the infield would have decreased since he was 23.

 

public assumption- braun was terrible defensively at third, but most of that came from throwing errors. good news- MOSTLY TRUE. in 945.1 innings, he committed 26 errors; 9 fielding and 16 throwing (and one mystery error that was not categorized as either) for an unsightly .895 FP. take out his throwing errors and he now raises that...excuse me, actually lowers it to .871- eek. however, to put that in some context, in 2017, Nick Castellanos was rated as the worst third baseman by most metrics of all qualified hot corners in the bigs. his fielding percentage was .939 (11 fielding; 6 throwing) in 1098.1 innings. excluding his throwing errors, his pure fielding percentage was in Braun territory at .875. So, fielding-wise, Braun moved up Weeks-like and was 'only terrible.'

 

I don't know how his pure range was at third, because all of the advanced defense metrics i know factor in outs converted, which is diminished for braun due to the exorbitant number of throwing errors. is there a stat that just measures 'getting to a ball' regardless of whether an out was made- like UZR, but without the outs? until that is known- we'll have to bank on these range stats: 2.11 RF/9 (League avg 2.59), -20.1 RngR, .564 RZR. YIKES. this would say that his range was possibly even worse than his fielding, but again, i believe it is so low because of the amount of errors he had. considering he was a SS in college, and is pretty fast and athletic, especially at 23, he probably had decent, or average range aka ability to get to balls, unless he had terribly slow reaction time, which could also be a factor- who knows. let's just assume then he had league average range.

 

Now- how does all of this translate to 1B? well, for starters, obviously first basemen do not throw nearly as much as do 3B- so, he's got that going for him. and it would stand to reason that fielding would theoretically remain the same. I looked at several players who played a lot of 3B and a lot of 1B and indeed affirmed that to be the case- there is little variance on actual fielding error percentage from positional switches 3B & 1B. Ryan Zimmerman is a good example of that (and coincidentally in Braun's draft class). Zimmerman's last fulltime season at third was in 2013 where he had 21 errors (6 fielding;15 throwing), similar to Braun, ratio-wise and mirror Zimm's career ratios, but was by far his worse defensive season. His throwing errors consistently put him near the bottom of the bunch year end and year out in that category- and might be what we'd expect from Braun in that way. But in terms of fielding the ball, Zimmerman committed 1 actual fielding error/207 innings. In comparison, last year at 1B, Zimmerman (though two years younger than Braun will be this season), committed 1 actual fielding error/232 innings. this also echos closely to Zimm's career splits. so very comparable by position, albeit slightly improved at 1B.

 

Looking at a positional switch, it could be expected that Braun would provide the same, or slightly worse, actual fielding performances as he showed at 3B in 2007, which would put him at the bottom of the league, but still passable. the more important question is how does this compare to Thames and Aguilar, who by most accounts are regarded as terrible defensive first basemen? Thames actually had pretty average fielding rates- 1 actual fielding error/214.2 innings. whereas, Aguilar was the worst in the majors (over 500 innings) committing 1 actual fielding error/168.1 innings. However, this is astonishingly much better than Braun's 1/105 at 3B. even giving Braun the 1B fielding boost, it would go up to about only 1 error every 120 innings. they are in the same category range when including throwing errors, so not much changes there.

 

but, what do the advance metrics say about our lugging two-headed monster? well, due to the small sampling, many of the measures are probably skewed, like DRS. but, in the congregate, thames grades out slightly below average, which is about middle of the pack for first basemen- including a -2.6 UZR/150 and Aguilar sporting a lower tiered -3.6 UZR/150 is consistently bottom rung. It is challenging to say how Braun would grade out here because of the limitations expressed earlier with range, but assuming as we also said above, he had average range at 3B, we'll reduce it to slightly below average range and looking at athleticism, i would want to believe that Braun would have at least, no worse range than Thames at 1B. so, giving him that, combined with his terrible fielding, he would probably expect to have some pretty bad metrics.

 

I also don't know the metrics that delineate the fielding errors from the receiving errors- and a way to measure a first baseman's ability to rescue or get to thrown balls from the infielders. which to some factored extent is height. braun is 6'2", Aguilar 6'3", Thames 6'0". i'm guessing Braun might have the biggest leaping ability. no clue who is the best at extending and digging balls out of the dirt. someone else can provide that added depth.

 

with all that said- this was a huge waste of time lol. i guess it really told me very little i already didn't know. Braun was a terrible third basemen, which would probably make him a terrible first baseman, though not nearly as bad as he was at third. in fact, he could probably make due, though unfortunately, most likely be a downgrade even from Jesus Aguilar. the question then would be how much of an upgrade would the outfield be without him there and is that a defensive net positive, team-wise? i think it would be- depending on which outfielders are still on the roster of course, but assuming santana is dealt and at least one of phillips/broxton stays- braun to 1b would most likely put Yelich in LF, Cain still in CF, and Phillips/Broxton in RF. someone else again, can do those calculations- but my guess that would be a net gain, in particular, because of the little defensive value put on 1B. not sure on that, but i read that somewhere. what would really be great, would be to bring up Garrett Cooper and his .366 average....oh wait. j/k.

 

i think a comparison for braun might be corey hart- played the outfield in the majors and out of need came to play first after Fielder left. by all accounts was fast and athletic, though fairly stiff. though not known for great defense, he played a lot of 3B in the minors, and his 6'6" frame made up for some of his defensive shortcomings. on the otherhand, and more objectively, he's one of the worst first basemen of the past fiftteen years. for reference, here's how he stacks up against other brewer firstbasemen in that time: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=1b&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=500&type=1&season=2017&month=0&season1=2002&ind=0&team=23&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=23,d

[Crash2303]

interesting tidbit that actually might play into all of this. Of all first basemen in the last fifteen years with at least 750 innings, Travis Shaw has the best DEF at 4.2, and an excellent UZR/150 of 15.2, which is second only to the AAAA great Ryan Shealy. obviously super small sample, but tifwiw.

 

if nothing else, if Stearns likes puzzles, could be a much more complicated way to address first base. who knows- crazier things have happened- Yuny B was starting for first for us in 2013 because five guys got injured on our first base depth chart. good to know we've got options, I guess.

[tmwiese55]

It's not like they have a clear guy to play 3B though outside of blah Perez. And Shaw was great at 3B too.

[Lathund]

I could see Shaw at 1B long term if Erceg turns out like we hope he will, but I don't see a move to 1B this year as we indeed don't have anyone else to play 3B.

[bork]

Braun warmed up at 2B.

 

https://www.mlb.com/brewers/news/brewers-zach-davies-looks-to-improve-in-april/c-267773590

 

When Ryan Braun said at Brewers On Deck in January that he was open to playing some second base this spring in addition to learning first base, Counsell told reporters, "I think he's messing with you." Just in case that had changed, Counsell was asked about the possibility again on Saturday, a day after Braun, who continues to float the possibility when he talks to reporters, swapped spots with Jonathan Villar and warmed up from the second baseman's spot between innings of the Brewers' game against the Mariners.

 

It's still not happening, according to Counsell.

 

"You're free to keep believing it if you want," Counsell said.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Braun warmed up at 2B.

 

https://www.mlb.com/brewers/news/brewers-zach-davies-looks-to-improve-in-april/c-267773590

 

That confirms it. Clancyphile is Ryan Braun!

[pacopete4]

Still just messing with us?

When Ryan Braun said at Brewers On Deck in January that he was open to playing some second base this spring in addition to learning first base, Counsell told reporters, "I think he's messing with you." Just in case that had changed, Counsell was asked about the possibility again on Saturday, a day after Braun, who continues to float the possibility when he talks to reporters, swapped spots with Jonathan Villar and warmed up from the second baseman's spot between innings of the Brewers' game against the Mariners.

 

It's still not happening, according to Counsell.

 

"You're free to keep believing it if you want," Counsell said.

[adambr2]

Brewers outfielder Ryan Braun‘s attempt to play first base this spring isn’t going all that smoothly, even though it has been “enjoyable,” he explained Saturday (via the Associated Press). “I definitely don’t feel comfortable at all,” the 34-year-old admitted. “I’m doing the best I can with it. Guys have to make sacrifices. I think ultimately if we want to get to where we want to get as a team, based on the roster we’ve put together, it obviously helps make us a better team if I’m able to play multiple positions.” Interestingly, Braun added that because of the bending and squatting that are required for playing first, his new position has been “a lot harder” on his back than lining up in the outfield.

 

So basically if Braun can't play 1st, we're in complete roster purgatory with him.

 

Like him or not, Braun is a horrible fit for this roster right now.

[BuckyBrewer61]

Interestingly, Braun added that because of the bending and squatting that are required for playing first, his new position has been “a lot harder” on his back than lining up in the outfield.

 

 

This alone makes me want to say scrap the 1B experiment, make Braun the 4th outfielder getting around 100 starts while giving the other 3 days off in RF/LF for rest and the inevitable injuries, and let Broxton/Phillips battle it out for 5th. Then keep the Thames/Aguilar platoon. It's not like Braun's going to start 150 games if the starts are available anyway, and now we're apparently wearing down his already fragile body.

[adambr2]

Interestingly, Braun added that because of the bending and squatting that are required for playing first, his new position has been “a lot harder” on his back than lining up in the outfield.

 

 

This alone makes me want to say scrap the 1B experiment, make Braun the 4th outfielder getting around 100 starts while giving the other 3 days off in RF/LF for rest and the inevitable injuries, and let Broxton/Phillips battle it out for 5th. Then keep the Thames/Aguilar platoon. It's not like Braun's going to start 150 games if the starts are available anyway, and now we're apparently wearing down his already fragile body.

 

I have to agree. There doesn't seem to be a position at all that he can perform without flaring up something, so let him come off the bench. PH nearly daily, DH when possible, and shuffle Yelich to CF when Cain needs a day off and I guess to RF when Santana needs a day off.

 

He can probably get 400-450 PAs this way.

[pacopete4]

Sounds more of second guessing himself than anything else. Here is what Counsell had to say about his play per TomH:

More from Counsell on Braun playing 1B: "The process of being comfortable is not going to happen in one day. It's a process. But, so far, from all of our perspectives, he's done a really nice job at it."

Position changes aren’t easy but he’ll be alright. Props to Braun for being open and willing to even go down this road. Not every player would. And this isn’t the first time.

[adambr2]

Unfortunately the process of getting comfortable is only part of it. If it's a position that is going to frequently cause his back to flare up, for a player who already deals with frequent nagging injuries, it's not likely to end up being a successful transition.

 

Maybe he can start there once or twice a week. I'm highly skeptical that he can hold up at 1st on a more regular basis than that.

[pacopete4]

Unfortunately the process of getting comfortable is only part of it. If it's a position that is going to frequently cause his back to flare up, for a player who already deals with frequent nagging injuries, it's not likely to end up being a successful transition.

 

Maybe he can start there once or twice a week. I'm highly skeptical that he can hold up at 1st on a more regular basis than that.

 

I hear ya. I just think it’s way too early in the process to really know. It’s good to hear he’s playing well and he might just have some unrealistic expectations for himself. Even if he could start twice a week at 1B, that should open up enough at bats to all their players. I just believe he has very high standards for himself and doesn’t want to look stupid and that’s where a lot of this comes from. Seems like a guy that needs to hear he’s good every once in awhile.

[coolhandluke121]

 

So basically if Braun can't play 1st, we're in complete roster purgatory with him.

 

Like him or not, Braun is a horrible fit for this roster right now.

 

Yep. I still think it was actually amazing they had any chance to get rid of him in 2016 when the Dodgers wanted him, and I can't believe they didn't take that opportunity. The Dodgers backed out, but the Brewers could have lowered their asking price.

 

His inevitable decline in the outfield, no-trade clause, injury history, and PED history, not to mention the team's glut of outfield prospects, should have made dumping him one of the easiest decisions a team could possibly make.

 

Silver lining: maybe this is a precursor to a Kemp + prospects deal?

[Never Outhustled]

Interestingly, Braun added that because of the bending and squatting that are required for playing first, his new position has been “a lot harder” on his back than lining up in the outfield.

 

 

This alone makes me want to say scrap the 1B experiment, make Braun the 4th outfielder getting around 100 starts while giving the other 3 days off in RF/LF for rest and the inevitable injuries, and let Broxton/Phillips battle it out for 5th. Then keep the Thames/Aguilar platoon. It's not like Braun's going to start 150 games if the starts are available anyway, and now we're apparently wearing down his already fragile body.

 

Your set-up would force the team in to an 11 man pitching staff, in stead of the more likely 13 man staff they'd like to use a majority of the time.

 

The roster will be super fluid most of the season, but I think we'll only see an 11 man staff for the first 7 games, as the 5th starter won't be needed until game 8, because of an off day on day 4 of the season.

[adambr2]

Unfortunately the process of getting comfortable is only part of it. If it's a position that is going to frequently cause his back to flare up, for a player who already deals with frequent nagging injuries, it's not likely to end up being a successful transition.

 

Maybe he can start there once or twice a week. I'm highly skeptical that he can hold up at 1st on a more regular basis than that.

 

I hear ya. I just think it’s way too early in the process to really know. It’s good to hear he’s playing well and he might just have some unrealistic expectations for himself. Even if he could start twice a week at 1B, that should open up enough at bats to all their players. I just believe he has very high standards for himself and doesn’t want to look stupid and that’s where a lot of this comes from. Seems like a guy that needs to hear he’s good every once in awhile.

 

Well I certainly hope things work out for best case.

 

DH can't come to the NL soon enough. Evem if we didn't have Braun we'd benefit from it.

[adambr2]

 

So basically if Braun can't play 1st, we're in complete roster purgatory with him.

 

Like him or not, Braun is a horrible fit for this roster right now.

 

Yep. I still think it was actually amazing they had any chance to get rid of him in 2016 when the Dodgers wanted him, and I can't believe they didn't take that opportunity. The Dodgers backed out, but the Brewers could have lowered their asking price.

 

His inevitable decline in the outfield, no-trade clause, injury history, and PED history, not to mention the team's glut of outfield prospects, should have made dumping him one of the easiest decisions a team could possibly make.

 

Silver lining: maybe this is a precursor to a Kemp + prospects deal?

 

Well, we know it was for Puig+McCarthy and 2 prospects and the hangup was the prospects, so just for fun let's see how that would have worked out.

 

Puig is a nice, reliable 3 WAR or so corner OFer, albeit with some character concerns.

 

He's far more tradeable than Braun, although with corner OFs so devalued in this market I don't know if you'd get much. But at worst you could get him off the books and free up the logjam. Or you could keep him. He's primarily a RF but much more versatile than Braun -- you can get by in a pinch with him in LF or CF. So he'd be a much better and cheaper 4th OFer than Braun and you don't have to try to force him to play 1B.

 

McCarthy is far less reliable but would have been a perfect short term bridge to getting Nelson back or Burnes up. He would have eliminated any real need to pursue someone like Cobb. The short term salary gain would be about $2.5M this year and last year and then we'd have all of it off the books after 2018, and L.A. would be paying Braun.

 

The prospects would just be gravy at this point. It doesn't really matter if they were Dubons or Laras.

 

So yeah, Stearns really whiffed on this. It would have been a fantastic trade and a really good fit for where we are now. And that happens, I get that. Stearns is a great GM and will hopefully learn from it -- sometimes situations arise in which standing your ground may not be the right move.

[pacopete4]

Far from over to make concrete assertions. Especially when we really have no idea what the trade was.

[adambr2]

Far from over to make concrete assertions. Especially when we really have no idea what the trade was.

 

Sure we do, other than we don't know who the prospects were, but as I pointed out it wouldn't have mattered who they were to make the deal a big win.

 

https://reviewingthebrew.com/2017/08/19/milwaukee-brewers-braun-puig-deal/

 

Side note regarding this article, I love Stearns but if it ever comes out that Bellinger was one of the prospects, I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive him for it.

[adambr2]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2016/09/13/ryan-braun-yasiel-puig-dodgers-brewers-trade/90311414/

 

Here's a better source right from USA Today:

 

Braun was being traded to the Dodgers, who would pay the entire $76 million in his contract, for outfielder Yasiel Puig, injured veteran pitcher Brandon McCarthy and prospects.

[jerichoholicninja]

Once Braun is spending the majority of his time on the bench I'm sure he'll feel more comfortable playing 1B.

[coolhandluke121]

[

 

Well, we know it was for Puig+McCarthy and 2 prospects and the hangup was the prospects, so just for fun let's see how that would have worked out.

 

Puig is a nice, reliable 3 WAR or so corner OFer, albeit with some character concerns.

 

 

The prospects would just be gravy at this point. It doesn't really matter if they were Dubons or Laras.

 

 

My main issue with it is just being attached to "the face of the franchise". You have to make tough decisions in order to stay ahead of the game. I don't like the NFL, but one thing they have right is that they have a culture of doing what's best for the team no matter whom they end up having to cut.

 

There's also the fact that they appeared to be a few years from contention, so it didn't make sense to keep Braun. Not to mention the fact that he was less than a year away from his 10/5 rights and now we're stuck with him.

 

I still have hopes that it could happen. The Dodgers have surplus LHB 1B guys like Rios and Beaty, who have no place on LAD with Bellinger there but could be ready to take over for Thames in a year or two. They also have some halfway decent bullpen or 4/5 starter prospects like Jordan Sheffield and Trevor Oaks. Maybe the Brewers could include a prospect or two of greater organization need for LAD (seems they might need a Dubon in case of injury, or an MLB-ready reliever like Williams) in order to improve the return. A catching prospect like Will Smith or even Keibert Ruiz would be great. Not sure if they'd have any interest in Broxton or Villar, but they might?

 

I really like the idea of freeing up more payroll in fall 2019 by swapping out Braun's contract for Kemp's, and it should be worth enough to LAD to entice them to offer something in return.

[young guns]

Brewers outfielder Ryan Braun‘s attempt to play first base this spring isn’t going all that smoothly, even though it has been “enjoyable,” he explained Saturday (via the Associated Press). “I definitely don’t feel comfortable at all,” the 34-year-old admitted. “I’m doing the best I can with it. Guys have to make sacrifices. I think ultimately if we want to get to where we want to get as a team, based on the roster we’ve put together, it obviously helps make us a better team if I’m able to play multiple positions.” Interestingly, Braun added that because of the bending and squatting that are required for playing first, his new position has been “a lot harder” on his back than lining up in the outfield.

 

So basically if Braun can't play 1st, we're in complete roster purgatory with him.

 

Like him or not, Braun is a horrible fit for this roster right now.

Found this quote on ESPN. Seems to imply it should get easier on his back when he gets comfortable. I guess we just have to wait and see.

 

"So, generally, you're putting your back in more vulnerable positions, which for me is a challenge," he said. "My back is the biggest thing healthwise I've focused on for a few years now. ... I think in the long run I have no doubt first base would be easier. But to this point, it's definitely been a lot harder on my back than the outfield was, so we'll see."