Where is Domingo Going?

[TJseven7]

If you want to trade a player and only one team is interested you have no market. You do not trade the player unless you have to in a scenerio where you have no marker. It has to be a something is better than nothing perishable svenerio or you are managing your assets horribly.

 

You could have 4 1b and as long as there is a market you still have leverage.

 

We want to deal Santana. Mia wanted to cut payroll. Both motivated sellers, really not that different. Did they lose leverage, nope.

 

We actually can go into the season with aguilar Thames braun yelich cain santana on the roster. I've explained this at length. We are allowed this by being able to use options on phillips and broxton. By having perez and thames both emergency ofs. By having yelich and cain wgo can slide to cf and rf respectively.

 

Teams will offer less, until someone wants to acquire the player. Then they'll pay the required price. Mia again stated fire sale. Quite a few offers came in. They retained leverage. You can try to lowball. That's adorable and bad business but you can try. You won't get the player you are after because another party won't lowball. He's not a car where you can get the same thing from 20 different dealerships.

 

I've worked in sales. Perishable and non. You take a lower price when somethings value is depreciating. Closeout sales for new product, short date sales for perishables, spending window sales to capture spending dollars and win profits by drawing a large piece of a limited pool of discretionary spending. None of that applies to this scenerio. Nothing is expiring, nothing is depreciating.

 

We haven't proceeded on an offer... thats all we know. We could have an indian salazar offer we see as fair but that might be down the list of our targets. Only 1 offer of a supposed 3 has changed. We could be waiting for a number of reasons.

 

If I was your GM and tried take advantage of the brewers situation, I'd be the gm that didn't land the player and damaged a bridge. The team that needs to move a player will get less if there is no market. The team that wants to move a player won't take less unless they are stupid.

 

If I had Huira ready behind altuve my price would not change on either. As long as huira has is controlled I'm asking my price. As long as I have altuve, I'm asking my price. There will be a market. You are talking about "everyone is available" logic. Would I trade shaw today for way too much...every gm would but it would require a bad gm on the other side. One who would actively take the path of most resistance and frankly these guys aren't that dumb. The only way the price changes is if the piece itself depreciates.

 

The santana issue doesn't even hit the radar until next year or until Braun proves incapable of playing 1b. Phillips Broxton will be out of options. Then something has to move. To be completely honest, I'd rather throw broxton or aguilar away than give someone a sweetheart deal on santana. The curse of depth is that you can't keep it all, not that depth devalues your stars.

[TJseven7]

Don't want to deal santana. It damages the offense. 2b ss c can't make up the difference. Not sold on phillips and broxton being close enough to santana to mitigate the blow.

 

I keep them all. Basically rule 5 stashing aguilar. He is a ph/dh. Most fragile player on the team is braun. If he goes down we have a platoon 1b with no platoon mate. We'd have broxton or phillips to call up when the injury bug hit.

 

Perez sogard, even thames to a small degree are multi position depth guys. Utilizing that will get them some work and keep our bases covered incase of injury.

 

If anyone is flat released or traded to keep a convential bench it should be aguilar. With a braun thames platoon we are going to thrash that spot in the order and if braun is healthy aguilar is 100% redundant. He hits lefties, braun kills lefties. We can be very happy with the production that bargain platoon gave us last year but thames/braun platoon could be devestatingly good. Even in a small 80-85 game role... thames will blast his way beyond being merely worth his contract.

[paul253]

I’m not going to get dragged into this anymore. As Brewcity said let’s get back on topic. If you want to start on a thread on whether or not leverage exists in trades generally and the Santana situation specifically Id be happy to participate.

[BrewCity22]

Thanks men. To me, I believe Santana stays put unless the absolute right deal presents itself or if we don’t sign a FA starter. If he stays, that leaves Braun to play first since he won’t sit on the bench if he’s healthy. That leads to either a soft platoon or Braun being full-time. Only way the platoon happens is if he struggles at first. Then it’s leads to another issue of who plays outfield. I don’t believe Thames or Braun would be a viable option since neither can play center. You could beg to differ that Yelich could slide over but I don’t see that being a high priority. Since both Thames and Braun can play left and MAYBE some right, that makes Aguilar expendable. Unfortunately, he was our best pinch hitter last year but a lack of versatility could doom him.

 

My number one option would be to keep Santana and make a juggernaut lineup while signing a FA starter. Problem would be finding Thames playing time which I think would hurt him in the long run as he is a player that has to get into a routine to be successful. Counsell and Stearns will have a ton to work with in spring training which is good, but it makes me excited/nervous to see who and what gets traded or let go.

[paul253]

My number one option would be to keep Santana and make a juggernaut lineup while signing a FA starter. Problem would be finding Thames playing time......

 

This is probably my number one option too, though I’d prefer they look to trade Thames for some prospects. If Braun plays first I want it to be full time with Aguilar backing him up. Then we can keep Phillips on the roster as someone else who can play a good CF.

[Jose Cardenal1]

If we ship off 4 prospects in an Archer trade and if we sign one of the FA SP, what type of prospect haul could we get for Santana? Use him to replenish the system.

 

Considering Cleveland makes so much sense for Santana and not focusing on Mejia or McKenzie as returns could we get a Nolan Jones or Will Benson plus a pitcher like Civale and a 3rd guy/lottery ticket?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

My number one option would be to keep Santana and make a juggernaut lineup while signing a FA starter. Problem would be finding Thames playing time......

 

This is probably my number one option too, though I’d prefer they look to trade Thames for some prospects. If Braun plays first I want it to be full time with Aguilar backing him up. Then we can keep Phillips on the roster as someone else who can play a good CF.

 

I'd prefer to trade Santana, Aguiar, and Broxton, as long as they get good value back. Santana is a 30+ HR bat, while Brox is 20+, and Aguiar showed well last year. Then play Braun and Thames at 1B, and make Phillips the starting RF. I think his bat will play well out there as he matures, and that OF defense would be sensational. The idea of a Yelich, Cain, Phillips OF would be enticing to any pitcher. For depth in the OF, they'll still have Perez who is capable of playing any spot, and others like Wren or even Stokes who can play all 3 spots.

[Mr Southpaw]

If we ship off 4 prospects in an Archer trade and if we sign one of the FA SP, what type of prospect haul could we get for Santana? Use him to replenish the system.

 

Considering Cleveland makes so much sense for Santana and not focusing on Mejia or McKenzie as returns could we get a Nolan Jones or Will Benson plus a pitcher like Civale and a 3rd guy/lottery ticket?

 

I think TB wants Santana and 3-4 prospects for Archer. Like it was stated previously, just say no to TB until they drop their requirements. If Burnes is required, I would just say no.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

If we ship off 4 prospects in an Archer trade and if we sign one of the FA SP, what type of prospect haul could we get for Santana? Use him to replenish the system.

 

Considering Cleveland makes so much sense for Santana and not focusing on Mejia or McKenzie as returns could we get a Nolan Jones or Will Benson plus a pitcher like Civale and a 3rd guy/lottery ticket?

 

I think TB wants Santana and 3-4 prospects for Archer. Like it was stated previously, just say no to TB until they drop their requirements. If Burnes is required, I would just say no.

 

I would consider Santana and Burnes for Archer, but that's it. And I want Tampa to throw in money to offset Archer's salary. Otherwise they can pound sand. Burnes is very close to being MLB ready, and while he probably doesn't bring Archer's talent to the table, it's close.

[tmwiese55]

I think it's very obtuse to think acquiring two OFs to play in front of Santana doesn't or at least couldn't hurt his value. First, it shows they clearly need to move him so will likely take less. Second, it shows MKE might think there is some issues with him to so aggressively try to improve from him. And I'd say it's even more obtuse and rude to aggressively bash another poster when our beloved insider (who we're all treating as gospel right now but at the least has some kind of inside info) literally said this is exactly the reason it happened.

[coolhandluke121]

I think our best bet right now would be to try to trade Thames for some low level high upside prospects. Thames strikes out just as much as Santana. He’s older. He’s more expensive. He’s under control for less time. Really the only thing he has on Santana is that he’s left handed. Play Ryan Braun at first base full time with Aguilar as his backup.

 

I really wanted to side with you on the whole argument above, but it doesn't help when you suggest things like this. With all due respect, the notion of trading Thames and keeping Aguilar undermines your credibility completely. Thames is a much better player than Aguilar and they need an LHB 1b. Aguilar has been about two tiers below Thames for their entire careers, including the minors, and is a total waste of a roster spot. With Braun at 1b, the idea of keeping a one-dimensional RHB who can only play 1b (and barely, at that) is mind-numbingly foolish.

 

If you think he can actually fetch some prospects, then maybe you'd have a point, but we've seen in free agency that guys with his profile are hardly even neutral assets. Teams could easily sign Morrison or Duda or Lind for less than 8 figures without giving up anything. The idea of Aguilar being on a level with Thames because he had one good season as a part-time player is stuck in people's heads for some reason and they can't get it out despite all logic to the contrary. It's the worst Milwaukee sports case of collective insanity since thinking Brandon Jennings was a future superstar.

[BuckyBrewer61]

I think TB wants Santana and 3-4 prospects for Archer. Like it was stated previously, just say no to TB until they drop their requirements. If Burnes is required, I would just say no.

 

Agreed on this. I tell them Burnes is off the table. The offer is Santana, Ortiz, and a lower rated prospect. Take it or leave it. I have a feeling this is roughly what was offered and perhaps loosely agreed upon, and now TB wants more after the Yelich trade. And it appears Stearns has (appropriately IMO) said no, and isn't budging.

[coolhandluke121]

As for Santana, it's just a game of chicken. It's inevitable that TB and Cleveland would try to take advantage of the Brewers' increased desire to trade him. Whether they are successful is up to the Brewers though. They just have to be patient. The Brewers just need two teams who are very serious about acquiring him. That way those teams have to compete with each other regardless of the Brewers' situation. If TB was the only team chasing Santana, they had all the leverage anyway.

 

It may very well be that they were the only team with a really good offer for Santana, in which case pulling back might just indicate that they realized they didn't have to offer that much. That seems like the most likely explanation. Teams figure out stuff like that. They might have to wait for spring training. I'm fine with that. If anything, it would ensure that Braun takes a ton of reps at 1b, which might not happen if Santana was traded now and Braun was slated to take over in RF again.

[tmwiese55]

I think our best bet right now would be to try to trade Thames for some low level high upside prospects. Thames strikes out just as much as Santana. He’s older. He’s more expensive. He’s under control for less time. Really the only thing he has on Santana is that he’s left handed. Play Ryan Braun at first base full time with Aguilar as his backup.

 

I really wanted to side with you on the whole argument above, but it doesn't help when you suggest things like this. With all due respect, the notion of trading Thames and keeping Aguilar undermines your credibility completely. Thames is a much better player than Aguilar and they need an LHB 1b. Aguilar has been about two tiers below Thames for their entire careers, including the minors, and is a total waste of a roster spot. With Braun at 1b, the idea of keeping a one-dimensional RHB who can only play 1b (and barely, at that) is mind-numbingly foolish.

 

If you think he can actually fetch some prospects, then maybe you'd have a point, but we've seen in free agency that guys with his profile are hardly even neutral assets. Teams could easily sign Morrison or Duda or Lind for less than 8 figures without giving up anything. The idea of Aguilar being on a level with Thames because he had one good season as a part-time player is stuck in people's heads for some reason and they can't get it out despite all logic to the contrary. It's the worst Milwaukee sports case of collective insanity since thinking Brandon Jennings was a future superstar.

 

I think it's more about saving the 5 mil so you can spend that money on a P. I don't think he or anyone would say they'd prefer have Jesus over Thames baseball-wise. At least I hope not, but when you factor in that 5 mil to a team about to go up against their financial ceiling. And since they're backups you might not get much bang for your buck on that 5 mil. Still, with Braun's injury history I'm probably paying the 5 mil for insurance on that. But I see the logic.

[KeithStone53151]

I think our best bet right now would be to try to trade Thames for some low level high upside prospects. Thames strikes out just as much as Santana. He’s older. He’s more expensive. He’s under control for less time. Really the only thing he has on Santana is that he’s left handed. Play Ryan Braun at first base full time with Aguilar as his backup.

 

I really wanted to side with you on the whole argument above, but it doesn't help when you suggest things like this. With all due respect, the notion of trading Thames and keeping Aguilar undermines your credibility completely. Thames is a much better player than Aguilar and they need an LHB 1b. Aguilar has been about two tiers below Thames for their entire careers, including the minors, and is a total waste of a roster spot. With Braun at 1b, the idea of keeping a one-dimensional RHB who can only play 1b (and barely, at that) is mind-numbingly foolish.

 

If you think he can actually fetch some prospects, then maybe you'd have a point, but we've seen in free agency that guys with his profile are hardly even neutral assets. Teams could easily sign Morrison or Duda or Lind for less than 8 figures without giving up anything. The idea of Aguilar being on a level with Thames because he had one good season as a part-time player is stuck in people's heads for some reason and they can't get it out despite all logic to the contrary. It's the worst Milwaukee sports case of collective insanity since thinking Brandon Jennings was a future superstar.

 

I don't think anyone would suggest we get a top 10 organizational prospect for either player from any system other than a pathetic one like the Angels or Cubs systems. I could see either player having some value to an AL club as a platoon bat. Aguilar is league min while Thames is owed $11 million, so Aguilar probably has more value in this market(2018 would be a different story). I could see a team like Cleveland or Boston wanting Aguilar for a strict platoon/PH role and giving up the their version of Javon Ward/Larry Ernesto/Jean Carmona. That might be aiming a touch high, but something in that ballpark. Aguilar did have some value the way he was used, and that usage can easily be replicated by other teams. I think Thames will be less sought after anyways due to salary, and he fits much better on the team than Aguilar as a LH bat.

[BuckyBrewer61]

With all due respect

 

undermines your credibility completely.

 

mind-numbingly foolish.

 

stuck in people's heads for some reason and they can't get it out despite all logic to the contrary

 

It's the worst Milwaukee sports case of collective insanity

 

 

Sorry, couldn't help it

[coolhandluke121]

I think it's more about saving the 5 mil so you can spend that money on a P. I don't think he or anyone would say they'd prefer have Jesus over Thames baseball-wise. At least I hope not, but when you factor in that 5 mil to a team about to go up against their financial ceiling. And since they're backups you might not get much bang for your buck on that 5 mil. Still, with Braun's injury history I'm probably paying the 5 mil for insurance on that. But I see the logic.

 

Eh, I can't realistically see any better way to spend $5m than on a guy like Thames to platoon with one of the most injury-prone RHB's in all of a baseball. Morrison or Duda would probably cost close to $10m and get more years than Thames, who is still a pretty good value. I would probably put the over/under on Aguilar's OPS against rhp's at .770 or so, which is abysmal.

[MrTPlush]

I am not buying a leverage problem in trying to trade Domingo Santana. He, in theory, can fit on this roster and make zero problems. It actually would do wonders for our offense. Domingo Santana is also (potentially) a pretty special hitter. Not elite, but pretty darn respectable. At the very least there are 3+ teams vying to get his services. While I agree if one team is in the running or even two are in the running that could hurt your leverage. I also don’t see many Domingo Santana players that can be easily acquired elsewhere so hard to leverage without believable fallback options.

 

For those reasons I don’t believe in a leverage problem. We have a really good player and there is likely adaquete interest. No way a team started making their offer worse for us just because we acquired some OFers. Especially when he still fits on the roster.

 

Also there is no way the Rays are demanding Santana and 4 other prospects. Santana counts as at least two by himself and you would expect maybe 2 others unless they are going quantity over quality.

[StearnsFTW]

I agree think the one we missed with is Guerra.

 

What the heck does this even mean? We missed with him? He came out of nowhere, and had a great half season. Nagging injuries caught up with him last year. What did they miss with? That makes no sense.

 

Trading him at the 16 deadline like some of us begged them to do.

[tmwiese55]

Yea I said I'd agree for exact reason you said of worrying about Braun's injuries. But I totally see the logic of saving the money too and why it would be possible to go that way, I don't think the team would though. They're going for it, no reason to get cheap right now so I wouldn't let it that cost you the P you want.

 

One thing that popped in my head now would be taking that 5 mil saved and using that as the extra money to finally sign Walker. So, Walker would be your starting 2B but also be your 1st base insurance on Braun. More bang for that 5 mil so to speak.

[82brewcrew82]

I think it's very obtuse to think acquiring two OFs to play in front of Santana doesn't hurt his value. First, it shows they clearly need to move him so will likely take less. Second, it shows MKE might think there is some issues with him to so aggressively try to improve from him. And I'd say it's even more obtuse and rude to aggressively bash another poster when our beloved insider (who we're all treating as gospel right now but at the least has some kind of inside info) literally said this is exactly the reason it happened.

I think the whole post is very obtuse. They are relieving that pressure by playing Braun at first and both Broxton and Philips have options. There is plenty of room for Santana and any perceived NEED to trade him is artificial. I'd think their aggressive efforts to trade Santana since basically the day the season ended would have been more than enough of an indication that the Brewers wanted to move him. I also think it's ironically obtuse for you to call out other posters after such a condescending tone of your own. If you want to go off of HH19's post then fine, some of us aren't as sold as some others.

[82brewcrew82]

I agree think the one we missed with is Guerra.

 

What the heck does this even mean? We missed with him? He came out of nowhere, and had a great half season. Nagging injuries caught up with him last year. What did they miss with? That makes no sense.

 

Trading him at the 16 deadline like some of us begged them to do.

I thought they had tried but didn't find a return they liked. I mean, it is possible that other GM's saw him as a flash in the pan ready to flame out at any moment. I don't think anyone really thought of him as anything other than that but maybe I'm wrong and some thought of him as the real deal.

[tmwiese55]

I don't see how we can so easily say Santana still fits on the roster. This is reliant on Braun covering 1B and no one really knows for sure how that will go. It's great they've been so aggressively getting that word out there though. Which, in my opinion, them being so outspoken about Braun trying 1st is kind of showing they're not seeing the value they want in Santana talks and might think they themselves a leverage problem. Plus, it then forces you to trade someone else. There's a clear roster crunch.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I agree think the one we missed with is Guerra.

 

What the heck does this even mean? We missed with him? He came out of nowhere, and had a great half season. Nagging injuries caught up with him last year. What did they miss with? That makes no sense.

 

Trading him at the 16 deadline like some of us begged them to do.

 

Perhaps. Pretty easy to have hindsight on a move that wasn't made a year and a half ago now. The team was in sell mode then as well, so I'm sure if anyone offered anything of value for Guerra, he would have been gone.

[KeithStone53151]

I am not buying a leverage problem in trying to trade Domingo Santana. He, in theory, can fit on this roster and make zero problems. It actually would do wonders for our offense. Domingo Santana is also (potentially) a pretty special hitter. Not elite, but pretty darn respectable. At the very least there are 3+ teams vying to get his services. While I agree if one team is in the running or even two are in the running that could hurt your leverage. I also don’t see many Domingo Santana players that can be easily acquired elsewhere so hard to leverage without believable fallback options.

 

For those reasons I don’t believe in a leverage problem. We have a really good player and there is likely adaquete interest. No way a team started making their offer worse for us just because we acquired some OFers. Especially when he still fits on the roster.

 

Also there is no way the Rays are demanding Santana and 4 other prospects. Santana counts as at least two by himself and you would expect maybe 2 others unless they are going quantity over quality.

 

HH19 did specifically say the Rays and other increased their asking prices after the OF deals. I can understand them trying to do that, but as you said there are multiple suitors for him without very viable alternatives at that price.

 

And a potential lineup of Cain, Yelich, Braun, Shaw, Walker, Santana, C, Arcia...that offense scores a lot of runs.